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22
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 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | exactly. I factor in all aspects of a player's career. And in Duncan's case, his Olympic play is a blemish on the record. |
His great college career vastly shadows his Olympic career. |
not in my eyes |
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Darth Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| VegasLakerFan wrote: | | Darth Los Angeles wrote: | | He's basically been done for about 6-7 years. It's RC and Pop who are keeping him alive by stocking the team. |
DeAndre Jordan was just about helpless on Duncan one-on-one in the post. He can't do it for 40 minutes anymore, but Duncan is far from done. |
What? Any great offensive player can dominate with the ball in short bursts. That goes goes present and retired players. Duncan hasn't been asked to play 40+ minutes as the primary offensive weapon and primary defensive anchor for a very long time. If he was expected to do that, he would have retired already.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. |
I think it was just the opposite. The world was already catching up, and USA Basketball was oblivious to it. After the 04 debacle, they finally saw it, and completely changed their approach. Personally, I don't blame the 04 loss on Duncan; I think he was mostly a victim of lots of bad decisions USA Basketball made, which is why the organization cleaned house. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. |
I think it was just the opposite. The world was already catching up, and USA Basketball was oblivious to it. After the 04 debacle, they finally saw it, and completely changed their approach. Personally, I don't blame the 04 loss on Duncan; I think he was mostly a victim of lots of bad decisions USA Basketball made, which is why the organization cleaned house. |
That quote is not mine.
However, he was on the team, he gets blamed for the loss in my book. Thems the breaks. That team still had plenty of talent to win |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
The Kobe and Shaq duo hasn't proven to have more short term success because Kobe never paired up with Duncan, they could have won both short term and long term. I also think Duncan would have handled the LA spotlight just fine as he shined his whole career, so I don't see why more "spotlight" would make a difference. |
A 3-Peat and 4 WC Titles in a 5 year period is proven short term success. Pair that with Duncan never repeating with talented teams.
Also Duncan a low key guy played his whole career in the lowest key media market in possibly all american sports. There is no negative media attention and circus in SA and the local media treats them like gods. Duncan may have handled just the pressure of being a Laker fine, but he's never come close to seeing anything what Laker players endure. Every little thing gets blown out of proportion, and if you ever actually lived in LA you know local media is equally harsh as national. Seems like a poor fit for a guy like Duncan... |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
And for a period of time 1 to Kobe's 2. |
Yes Duncan was better than Kobe for periods when Kobe was 22-25ish, but overall as I said, "Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era". Era. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004, which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K who revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle in the World Championships that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.
And that team in 2006 failed to win the World Championship Gold Medal, once again proving that the world had caught, forcing the U.S. to have to qualify by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas. The 2006 team didn't have Duncan on the squad and still lost despite having a better assembled roster than the 2004 team.
These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan. The notion the World hadn't caught up before 2008 and that Duncan is to blame for the 2004 team is false on every level.
Last edited by KBH on Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
And it means very little to me. To some it apparently means a lot.
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.
These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan. |
What did you use the wrong username?
But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS. |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
And it means very little to me. To some it apparently means a lot. |
It's not about meaning 'a lot' buddy. Its about meaning something. Duncan getting Bronze matters whether you want to admit it or not, sorry. If this were Kobe he'd get shtttt about it his whole career. And by the way don't turn this into a Kobe Duncan thing cause I just said that. I'm pointing out some guys take a free pass, others don't. |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh yeah this was the guy giving Bron a free pass for his Finals record too. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.
These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan. |
What did you use the wrong username?
But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS. |
Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.
So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to support the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | Oh yeah this was the guy giving Bron a free pass for his Finals record too. |
Nice twisting of words and logic. I never gave him a pass like I don't give Kobe the same for 2008. I just made the observation that everyone agrees that no other star could have won the finals with the 2007 and 2015 teams. Yet they will count against him and rightfully so because it is what it is.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| What the poop does Olympics have anything to do with this? Isn't the discussion Kobe/Tim or Kobe/Shaq in an NBA game/season?? |
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.
These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan. |
What did you use the wrong username?
But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS. |
Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.
So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to defend the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004. |
Didn't matter cause you're still pushing the World had caught up, when it wasn't to the level it became in later years. Doesn't matter if they lost in other years, that's on those American players as well like Bron. The World back in 2004 when Duncan lost simply wasn't at the "World has caught up narrative" level that happened later, it just wasn't. And the POINT is about Duncan losing in 2004 to lesser level of World talent than actually happened years later, all while being a lock top 3 player in the World, is a mark on his resume. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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There are so many other faults in Duncan's career to point to than a meaningless bronze medal when stacked against Kobe.
Anyways back to the topic at hand, I take the bronze medalist Duncan and Kobe for their career together.
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tolivendiewithLA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm moving on, but Duncan's Olympic resume matters, if this were Kobe it be held against him forever. Hell more message board "Laker" fans would probably be shttting on Kobe for it than ones do Duncan for finishing bronze, kinda weird. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | Duncan's Olympic record certainly matters. This was before the rest of the World really started to catch up. The World wasn't to the level it was during the 2008 or 2010 years which was probably the peak for the rest of the World to this point. Guys like Duncan or Bron would have their Bronze medals looked past, if this were Kobe it be held against him for ever.
That said some really short changing Duncan in this thread. Duncan was either 1A or 2 to Kobe during their Era. While Kobe and Shaq over a shorter period would have more success as proven, and be more likely to 3-peat. Kobe and Duncan would have a ton of success together, he'd be like Pau 5.0. Humble enough to not get bothered if Kobe took the reigns, but a quiet beast just the same. Kobe and Duncan would have more sustained success, like 6 Titles over 10-12 years.
I do have to agree though that Duncan had a perfect storm for his personality in his career playing in boring SA. The LA spotlight wouldn't have suited his personality so well. |
Well, if we're using the 2004 Olympics against Duncan, was Kobe not permitted to be on the team in 2004 (was it Colorado?). So many notable NBA stars didn't play on that team and it was one of the worst assembled post-Dream Team rosters around. I don't think Duncan was the culprit; you can look to the then-team leaders: Iverson/Marbury. You had 2nd year players in Lebron, Wade, Melo, then guys like Boozer, (collegian Okafor). That team was a mess and I think we are downplaying the 2004 Argentinian team a bit (though the team lost to Greece/Puerto Rico/Lithuania too).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_men%27s_Olympic_basketball_team
Further, 2 years before, our Men's National team finished SIXTH in the FIBA tournament. That team was also a rag tag collection of misfits. In short, the US dropped the ball completely post 2000 Olympics. Where were the other stars like Kobe, KG, Kidd, Shaq, etc.? (I understand Kobe/Shaq played in their 4th Finals).
Agree with the rest of the post however.
I'd say the biggest knock on Duncan was the fact he could never will/guide his team to consecutive championships. Shaq, despite being a less than motivated off season trainer, with Kobe, would will that team to consecutive rings. Duncan couldn't but with Kobe, maybe, but certainly not for sure. |
Why make excuses for Duncan? Reality is he was one of the top 3 players in the World at that time, lesser "dream style team" or not America still had the best talent by FAR, and he finished with a bronze medal. The World was not on the level it became years later in 2008 or 2010 either, that's not debatable. Duncan was the team leader and that team finished with a Bronze, giving him a free pass for that would be dumb. Not Duncan hate, just reality of what happened, he had a poor Olympic career. |
It's not an excuse. The fact is the world had caught up to the USA by 2004 which is why they brought in Jerry Colangelo, Coach K and revamped the USA basketball program by requiring players to make at least two year commitments if you were going to participate. And this began two years after the 2004 debacle that proved that you can't just roll out any collection of American NBA players and coast to a gold medal.
These are facts you as well as 22 are choosing to ignore because you want to blame Duncan. |
What did you use the wrong username?
But yes that's an excuse for Duncan whether you want to admit it or not. And NO the World hadn't caught up yet, not to the level in later years like 2008. The World wasn't what you're making it seem back then. Duncan was by far one of the best in the World, surrounded by other top World players. Maybe not the names that came out in 2008, but still much better talent than what the World had. They lost multiple games with Duncan who was a lock top 3 player in the World at the time. These are facts you're ignoring. Giving Duncan a free pass for that is BS. |
Because you responded to me before I updated my comment I'm going to say this again. Jerry Colangelo and Coach K took over the USA basketball program after the 2004 debacle and assembled a team that was much better constructed than the the 2004 Olympic team. That 2006 team lost to a Greek team without a single NBA player in the World Championships, forcing Team USA to have to qualify for the 2008 Olympics by winning the 2007 Championship of the Americas.
So you're arguing that the world had not caught up to Team USA until 2008 despite the fact that Team USA lost two of its previous three tournaments and that it's Duncan's fault they lost in 2004? You have no facts to support this claim. The 2004 team had the best collection of names with no shooters or chemistry due to limited practice time. The 2006 team lost to a Greek team with no NBA players on it even with shooters and more practice time. There's no way to defend the claim that the world hadn't caught up by 2004. |
Didn't matter cause you're still pushing the World had caught up, when it wasn't to the level it became in later years. Doesn't matter if they lost in other years, that's on those American players as well like Bron. The World back in 2004 when Duncan lost simply wasn't at the "World has caught up narrative" level that happened later, it just wasn't. And the POINT is about Duncan losing in 2004 to lesser level of World talent than actually happened years later, all while being a lock top 3 player in the World, is a mark on his resume. |
It absolutely was the point at which people said the World has caught up to the American level. How old are you? Those were literally the words people were saying from 2004 to 2006 and what motivated bringing in Colangelo and Coach K to revamap the entire program. If not being able to just roll out any collection of American NBA talent doesn't prove that the world has caught up and American basketball responded up to it, what does?
Sure you can argue it's a mark on his resume. It's mark that's minor compared to the overwhelming success his career has been from college to pro. One summer surrounded by a poorly constructed roster is relatively insignificant.
The only factual thing you've admitted is that you're choosing to be biased against Duncan because you choose to believe that people would harshly criticize Kobe in an imaginary scenario where he finished with a Bronze medal. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | I'm moving on, but Duncan's Olympic resume matters, if this were Kobe it be held against him forever. Hell more message board "Laker" fans would probably be shttting on Kobe for it than ones do Duncan for finishing bronze, kinda weird. |
absolutely they would |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | tolivendiewithLA wrote: | | I'm moving on, but Duncan's Olympic resume matters, if this were Kobe it be held against him forever. Hell more message board "Laker" fans would probably be shttting on Kobe for it than ones do Duncan for finishing bronze, kinda weird. |
absolutely they would |
It's the dramatic dichotomy of the two players that stands out the most to me.
When Duncan joined the Olympic team, he was hailed and hyped as the leader. And he failed really badly, bad calls or whatever. And to top it off, his infamous declaration that he would never play again. (I must mention Lebron was on the team also)
Then, the Olympic team continues to underperform in multiple more times in the following years.
Finally, Kobe joins the team. Like Duncan, there's a lot of hype for Kobe. Now I want to say the beatdown USA put on the Olympics was due to Kobe, but really, the team was so much better overall. Still, the drama comes from that Spain gold medal game where Kobe literally saves the game and it could not have been scripted better.
There are not many examples that so clearly show the difference between players like this. That's why I look forward to the Olympics so much for basketball...it reveals who is legitimate and who is the real deal. Duncan, I'm sorry to say, has a few gimmicks in his game. That's the real reason why it didn't translate as well to the Olympics. Kobe...no gimmicks. Kobe is the real deal. There's no debate to me about Duncan vs Kobe. Kobe is on another level. Duncan is good, but not the best I've ever seen. Kobe is the best I've ever seen. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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And like clockwork... 
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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To me the bottom line on Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq is: they're considered equal.
From everything I've seen, they are lumped together one after the other in the middle to bottom half of the top 10 players of all time.
I've seen the three of them ordered in every which way -- Duncan first, Kobe first, Shaq first, and I don't think there is any concensus on which of them is better than the others. I think they are simply considered a unit, very different but with equal overall careers. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | To me the bottom line on Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq is: they're considered equal.
From everything I've seen, they are lumped together one after the other in the middle to bottom half of the top 10 players of all time.
I've seen the three of them ordered in every which way -- Duncan first, Kobe first, Shaq first, and I don't think there is any concensus on which of them is better than the others. I think they are simply considered a unit, very different but with equal overall careers. |
This. I tend to rank Kobe ahead of them, but I'm also willing a bit of personal bias leads me to that. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| it's just...so offensive to me. |
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