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Contested Jumpers (Why Does Swaggy P Take Them)
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novadolla
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:02 pm Post subject:

Sniper008 wrote:

Kobe took the highest amount of contested jumpers despite also missing about 40 games. Right now I think it comes down to coaches. Byron Scott needs to not encourage taking the mid range jump shot it is just not efficient. We also need to find a way to space the floor and take good shots attack the basket, make the extra pass and get a good open 3. That's what every other team does except for Memphis but Memphis has got the personel to play a certain way that we don't. I don't blame swaggy he can be a good 3 point shooter and can knock down open looks it's up to the coach to run plays for him that will get him open looks.

This, only comment that makes sense in the topic. This is also all facts.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:25 pm Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

Even with Bryant and Swaggy P each missing a minimum of 40 games, Lakers had the most contested shots by a wide margin. Most of their contested jumpers were mid-range shots (worst spot on the floor) resulting being a Bottom 5 team in shooting for the first time in 20 years and on the floor ranked 23rd in shooting efficiency (worst in franchise history)

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

it should be noted that BScott's system worked great for CP3 and JKidd. It also provided some great sequences for The Black Mamba

Swaggy P just doesn't seem to produce consistently during crunch time because
• Everybody knows that he will not pass the ball
• He is not quick enough to split double teams to get easier jump shots
• He is not drive to the hole for layups
• He is not a "catch-and-shoot" player, hence there is a lot of time to get him doubleteam/tripleteamed

The highest offensive rank he got for Kidd was 18th in the league I believe, despite being the premier fast break team in the league. And if you've seen the Cp3 teams play, it was basically high pnr the whole time, with the perfect personnel to do it.

Not that either team is relevant anymore with the way defenses have gotten more sophisticated these days.

A Mad Chinaman
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:55 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

Is Scott a "Pop" or a "Zen Master" - no. Is he an elite coach, not at this time. Doc, Carlisle, Kerr and others were considered good coach and their reputation got elevated when they won ONE ring. Since Doc has definitely underperformed, should the GM fired him - like others like George Karl and Lionel Hollins?

CP3 earned BScott's trust to run the plays that focused on his strengths. It showed that he is flexible and will adapt to his main players' strengths.

Outside of The Black Mamba, was there any player on last year's roster that earned anybody's respect - nope.

Swaggy P's shots are mainly contested because he is a "One Trick Pony" and very predictable because he has only one strength. Kobe, on the other hand, has a great all around game.

Zen Master was a great coach that always had HOF players to work with. His Triangle offense is outdated in a league where everything is a version of a P&R/Pop.

He has earned getting a "shot" - especially with the support of The Cap, Big Game, Coop and Silk. He, like any other coach, deserves a chance and the fate of getting fired when one is not producing.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject:

^ Even assuming the above were true, how is that even relevant to the topic at hand? The offense resulting in a lot of contested jumpers is not a subjective thing. It actually happened. Clarkson, Ellington, Hill, and Wes all took their fair share of them.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:13 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I don't have the contested jumpers data, but in terms of the number of overall contested shots they were 16th in 2013-14. Considering that they were number 2 in pace that year, then as a percentage of overall shots, it's even lower.

greenfrog
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:12 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

A Mad Chinaman
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:09 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

Not sure what the relevance of comparing the systems of BScott, MDA and Zen Master because of the amount of talent that were on those teams

From eyeball viewpoint - Kobe took contested shots because
• clock was running down and they gave the ball to him late
• nobody wanted to take the shots and the opposing team knew that, hence double/triple-teamed
• him shooting contested shots had a better chance of being successful than Sacre taking any shot

Swaggy just
• gets the ball
• does not use screens
• just pounds the ball for seconds
• makes few fakes
• will not pass and everybody knows
• mainly use fadeaway jump shots
• all his teammates become stagnant
• opposing players just load up on him

fiendishoc
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

Of course the system matters. On the examples you gave, the clock is running down because the system does not have them get into their sets quickly, and does not provide secondary actions to go to when the first set fails (plenty of people wanted to take shots on that team btw). Secondly, it deliberately put the ball in the hands of non-ball handling gunners like Nick and Ellington to go out and make a play.

To answer greenfrog's question (again I don't have the jumper data), under MDA, 41.9% of NY's shot's past 10 ft out were contested vs 57.3% under Byron. For very contested shots (defender is 0-2 feet away) past 10 ft out, the percentages are 4.8% under MDA and 8.5% under Byron.

A Mad Chinaman
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Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:22 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

Definitely appreciate your informed and well-researched foundation for your answers.

System does matters but BScott appears to allow PGs to choose their own plays and players does break off the designed plays.

In regards to Swaggy's possession time with the ball, many times he has the opportunity to "juke and jive" for 4-7 seconds before taking contested shots. Even The Black Mamba has encouraged to be more decisive in his moves and to limit his useless dribbling since he has not been helping get a rhythm.

If Nick is a "non-ballhandling SG, why isn't he utilized more like Reggie Miller or Ray Allen or embraced their attitude - appears to be Nick's choice. It should be noted that the mentioned two shooters are never "Black Holes" while taking forever to put up a shot. Ellington was more effective since he had embraced the "catch-and-shoot" mentality resulting in quick and decisive shots coming off screens.

Nick appears to feel that he is a good to excellent ball handler SG.

As shared, is BScott a good to excellent HC - only time will tell. I hope that Swaggy will embrace his strengths and be an effective player

Look forward to your thoughts

CBaller8
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:13 am Post subject:

Nick is a good catch n shoot guy. I've seen him come off screens. He has good mechanics. IMO he's worse off the dribble than catch and shoot.

RCS926
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:07 am Post subject:

CBaller8 wrote:

Nick is a good catch n shoot guy. I've seen him come off screens. He has good mechanics. IMO he's worse off the dribble than catch and shoot.

Yes. I don't mind contested jumpers from him when he just catches and fires because he's usually shoots with good rhythm and balance in these situations. However, off the dribble, he's usually drifting or leaning, which brings his percentages down. Kobe, at least, is generally balanced no matter what kind of shot he takes.

BigGameHames
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject:

Its amazing how people blame Byron for Young taking bad shots when he has been doing it his entire career. Was it Byron's fault when he was taking dumb contested shots on other teams? This isn't something knew people, its who Swaggy is and why he is not fit to be on a championship caliber team. By all means criticize Scott if you disagree with something hes doing but Swaggys shot selection is not Scotts doing. I would actually say him benching Swaggy last year was in large part due to his bad shot selection on top of his atrocious/inexistent defense.

greenfrog
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:

Its amazing how people blame Byron for Young taking bad shots when he has been doing it his entire career. Was it Byron's fault when he was taking dumb contested shots on other teams?

I thought so too until fiendshoc's post. Can't argue with the numbers.

Omar Little
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Its amazing how people blame Byron for Young taking bad shots when he has been doing it his entire career. Was it Byron's fault when he was taking dumb contested shots on other teams?

I thought so too until fiendshoc's post. Can't argue with the numbers.

I think both things are true. Young has a tendency toward contested jumpers, and Scott has a definable tendency toward not only allowing, but fostering them.

Megaton
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:22 pm Post subject:

It's really both with Byron and Young. It's not exactly uncharacteristic (understatement of the year) for Young to take contested shots because...well because reasons. And Byron is at fault as well because he allows that kind of bs to go on. Hell, he might even be telling him it's a good idea because he thinks Young can be like Lou Williams...except he ain't. With all this said...Young does need to go. We just need a suitable replacement at backup SF to replace Young with. _________________ Darvin Scam: https://media.tenor.com/images/3c15249955860a4b16b59e8ae035fb75/tenor.gif

fiendishoc
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

It's because Scott's philosophy is that all of the perimeter players should be playmaking threats, and it's not a very good one. That's why he is probably the only coach in the league to have Wes Johnson run pick and rolls. That's fine if you want to develop the skills sets of young talented guards some years down the line. But it's pointless for guys like Wes, Nick, and Ellington, who are who they are. Other coaches have the spot up shooters to get the back to the PG / combo G if they catch the ball and no shot is there.

Now he probably does tell NY to pass the ball more, but he doesn't generally provide any easy outlet in the offense for him to give it up to.

Omar Little
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

greenfrog wrote:

fiendishoc wrote:

Quote:

A lot to do with the offense that they run.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see where they ranked in contested shots before Byron.

I meant specifically Kobe and Young. That overall the contested jumpers or shots have risen under Byron doesn't surprise me at all.

Thankfully, Mitch just went out and made sure most of his perimeter guys are legit playmaking threats.

fiendishoc
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject:

^ Yup- a big reason why the offense should look better this year. Now, all we need is a center who can shoot threes, dribble, and pass like a guard, and then we're all set.

DShotMaker1824
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:

^ Yup- a big reason why the offense should look better this year. Now, all we need is a center who can shoot threes, dribble, and pass like a guard, and then we're all set.

Pau Gasol?
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KeepItRealOrElse
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:10 pm Post subject:

Sadly I'm still not convinced that Swaggy's J is back to where it was season before last.

LakerLanny
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject:

defense wrote:

He's a ball hog who does what ball hogs do. Stand around when he doesn't have the ball, play no defense and dribble too much and chuck bad shots when he does.

You sound like a guy who is questioning "the system" Byron is implementing.

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SuperboyReformed
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:

defense wrote:

He's a ball hog who does what ball hogs do. Stand around when he doesn't have the ball, play no defense and dribble too much and chuck bad shots when he does.

You sound like a guy who is questioning "the system" Byron is implementing.

i think it's more fair to say he's a really good 3 point shooter who has shown he can deliver under duress. Remember that great Clipper comeback? That was basically all Nick. He is the only player other than Kobe who has that proven ability. That's not an insignificant characteristic, it's good to have a couple of those on the squad. Remember the champion Lakers had almost 3 of them...Kobe, Fisher, Horry. Nick also took it at Lebron repeatedly and scored repeatedly, it's really a good thing to have on the team.

Tark the Shark
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Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:

LakerLanny wrote:

defense wrote:

He's a ball hog who does what ball hogs do. Stand around when he doesn't have the ball, play no defense and dribble too much and chuck bad shots when he does.

You sound like a guy who is questioning "the system" Byron is implementing.

Yet, the Lakers openly floated him in trade talks and no one wanted this guy that takes over games and scores on Lebron.

A Mad Chinaman
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:05 am Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:

LakerLanny wrote:

defense wrote:

He's a ball hog who does what ball hogs do. Stand around when he doesn't have the ball, play no defense and dribble too much and chuck bad shots when he does.

You sound like a guy who is questioning "the system" Byron is implementing.

Swaggy has a good shooting percentage when he is coming off screens/picks (ala Ray Allen, Kyle Kover, Reggie Miller) and has a clean shot.

He is very inconsistent when shooting contested shots. Since he rarely uses a pump fake to drive to the paint and doesn't have the handles to shoot mid-range shots - many times he is shooting fadeaway contested 3 pointers that he cannot consistently hit. In addition, Swaggy loves ISOs and pounding the ball for many seconds before shooting - everyone knows that he will not be passing the ball hence nobody on the court is moving. He is a talented shooter but not a starter or somebody to depend on the take/make clutch shots

In comparison, Lou Williams is a triple threat. He is a good shooter that does things that Swaggy cannot do. Being a fan of the Warriors/Spurs where the ball is always moving/cutting, it is frustrating watching Swaggy become the Black Hole. Swag probably would be a better fit for a team like the Grizzs that doesn't accent movement while favoring ISOs

jumpinmp
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject:

Wellllll, to be somewhat fair, prior to Jordan getting significant playing time, Nick and Kobe appeared to be the only Lakers with NBA talent last year, lol.

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