|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Slash&Splash wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | Simmons
Randle
Derozan
Russell
Clarkson
Get used to it |
Two words: Spacing nightmare. |
In the beginning, sure. But as these players progress, they're going to become better shooters. People were down on Randle/Simmons as shooters, and they're already improving in-season.
I've said it so many times but it's worth repeating: reps + work ethic will transform jumpers. It's happened so many times in this league, and it's slowly evolving in front of us just this season. |
The question mark is just, how quickly will they get their jumpshots? Sasha never got consistent. Fisher took what, 4 years? Aaron Gordon took, 1 summer. |
Sasha didn't have near the natural ability. He's in the Stauskas camp of athletic enough for the NBA, can shoot in practice, but can't translate it consistently in games.
At least Simmons and Randle can score in other ways: put backs, dunks, up and unders, baby hooks, etc. The addition of a jumper makes the latter two beasts. The lack of jumper of the former makes them essentially useless. Though I will say that Sasha is a pesky defender and can get under players' skin which he does better than Nik. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | I prefer Simmons, but I definitely wouldn't be disappointed if we ended up with Ingram. Finally a Duke prospect that I don't think is wildly overrated. (Parker, Okafor) |
Opinion on Grayson Allen? |
I think he strictly projects as an off-ball scorer on the next level. A JR Smith-type in the best case scenario. You? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ingram or Hield.
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Drifts wrote: | | Ingram or Hield. |
I feel like people fall in love with one-dimensional high usage gunners every year. Hield gets that honor for 2016. Negative AST/TO ratio for a senior guard is a little alarming. Guy will space the floor, but I don't see him being much better than Jodie Meeks, who would've put up similar numbers had he returned his senior year. Not top 5 worthy at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime
Last edited by KeepItRealOrElse on Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fansincemagic
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11051
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Roon wrote: | | _#1_ wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Can only play SF If and only if he develops range from distance in a short time. I don't think that's the position best suited to his skill level. |
It's can be hard to envision the Power Forward spot with that passing. He should be the tallest PG ever.. okay that's out. So Point Forward. But which spot?
With some range coming SF makes some sense but small ball PF with his defense probably will win out. Small ball center.. again defense issues so no. Also he should have the ball in his hands and a steady diet of PnR. You want this guy surrounded by shooters. |
The Coach just needs to get creative.
Russel, Brown, Randle, Nance, Simmons.
Plenty of length, plenty of speed, lots of IQ. Would they really get burned that bad at center? Lot's of switching, playing passing lanes, fronting certain bigs. I think they'd be fine. |
A health Horford would fit perfect |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Ingram or Hield. |
I feel like people fall in love with one-dimensional high usage gunners every year. Hield gets that honor for 2016. Negative AST/TO ratio for a senior guard is a little alarming. Guy will space the floor, but I don't see him being much better than Jodie Meeks, who would've put up similar numbers had he returned his senior year. Not top 5 worthy at all. |
Meeks? Ummm... No.
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Slash&Splash wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | Simmons
Randle
Derozan
Russell
Clarkson
Get used to it |
Two words: Spacing nightmare. |
In the beginning, sure. But as these players progress, they're going to become better shooters. People were down on Randle/Simmons as shooters, and they're already improving in-season.
I've said it so many times but it's worth repeating: reps + work ethic will transform jumpers. It's happened so many times in this league, and it's slowly evolving in front of us just this season. |
The question mark is just, how quickly will they get their jumpshots? Sasha never got consistent. Fisher took what, 4 years? Aaron Gordon took, 1 summer. |
Sasha didn't have near the natural ability. He's in the Stauskas camp of athletic enough for the NBA, can shoot in practice, but can't translate it consistently in games.
At least Simmons and Randle can score in other ways: put backs, dunks, up and unders, baby hooks, etc. The addition of a jumper makes the latter two beasts. The lack of jumper of the former makes them essentially useless. Though I will say that Sasha is a pesky defender and can get under players' skin which he does better than Nik. |
Woah time out. Sasha was actually drafted on his shooting by age. It never translated into NBA game time, but it was there, and I think the great shooting form.
Guys like Sasha are the exception, not the norm. I think Stauskas lost his range because he was told to lose weight once he got into the NBA. When he was a stronger player, especially with upper body strength at Michigan, the guy was absolute money.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | I prefer Simmons, but I definitely wouldn't be disappointed if we ended up with Ingram. Finally a Duke prospect that I don't think is wildly overrated. (Parker, Okafor) |
Opinion on Grayson Allen? |
I think he strictly projects as an off-ball scorer on the next level. A JR Smith-type in the best case scenario. You? |
The reason why I ask is because I remember you were high on Devin Booker when I wasn't. I saw a guy that was JJ Redick-like and we both agreed on that, but I still wasn't really convinced.
I see an off-ball guy too, but, quite literally, a shorter Klay. Aggressive attacking the basket. Not overly quick. Explosive in rare moments. Doesn't get a lot of lift from the legs. Lightning quick release. Almost seems like a volume shooter, but just highly accurate.
I think Klay can do it because he has great size at the wing. Allen is 6'4.5" with a 6'6.5" wingspan, basically elite PG size. Shooting translates, but I can't figure out the kind of role, really. 6th man shooter.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
For sure, JR is way more vertically explosive than Hield. I love the pace Hield plays at with the ball the tho.
Meeks being able to handle the ball like Hield is so opposite of his game tho, that I can't compare the two. They're so different
Jr Smith at the end of his Nuggets run and on the Knicks is similar to Hield to me. Dribble moves, pull-ups , some driving , spot ups. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that. |
So basically 2nd year under D'antoni Jodie Meeks? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | Ingram or Hield. |
I feel like people fall in love with one-dimensional high usage gunners every year. Hield gets that honor for 2016. Negative AST/TO ratio for a senior guard is a little alarming. Guy will space the floor, but I don't see him being much better than Jodie Meeks, who would've put up similar numbers had he returned his senior year. Not top 5 worthy at all. |
I don't think Meeks would have averaged 50/50/90. It took Meeks what, 5 years in the NBA to get legitimate ball-handling and develop some level of aggression attacking the basket?
I think Hield is where Meeks was as a Laker during his peak year as a Laker. I wouldn't even call Hield a one-dimensional high usage gunner.
The shot distribution for Oklahoma is MUCH better than Kentucky during Meeks's years. Meeks had Patrick Patterson, legit NBA prospect, and took shots away from DeAndre Liggins (borderline NBA) and Darius Miller (IMHO, the Lakers should pick him up).
Those Kentucky teams lacked ball movement, and outside of Patterson and Meeks, the only double digit scorers, the rest of the team absolutely struggled to get more than 5.5 shot attempts per game. Poor.
Contrast to Oklahoma. They pass strongside to weakside. While Hield's A/TO ratio isn't great, "Gunning" at a 50/50/90 rate to me, is like saying that Klay Thompson and Stephen Curry are "Gunning" despite great shooting percentages.
Unlike Kentucky, Oklahoma doesn't have a frontcourt player or a backcourt player that is a sure fire 1st round pick. Hield for sure is the #1 option, and still shooting an insane rate.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/oklahoma/2016.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kentucky/2009.html
I am leery of A/TO ratio, especially from guards, but Oklahoma is just a better team with IMHO, 1 legit scoring option, not 2 like Kentucky.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
All of that being said, I don't think Hield is a Top 3 pick. Lottery? Sure, in a weak draft. He's the size of an elite PG with insane shooting numbers. All the talk about his work ethic definitely goes to his favor.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that. |
So basically 2nd year under D'antoni Jodie Meeks? |
If there is one thing I know about MDA, it makes bigmen add range (Jordan Hill) and guards develop ball-handling AND shooting.
3pt shooting was absolutely mandatory, and that's how Stoudemire got scary from midrange real fast.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that. |
So basically 2nd year under D'antoni Jodie Meeks? |
If there is one thing I know about MDA, it makes bigmen add range (Jordan Hill) and guards develop ball-handling AND shooting.
3pt shooting was absolutely mandatory, and that's how Stoudemire got scary from midrange real fast. |
What would you see D'antoni doing with this lineup?
D'angelo Russell
Devin Booker
Anthony Brown
Julius Randle
Willie Cauley-Stein
Bench:
Jordan Clarkson
Lou Williams
Nick Young
Larry Nance Jr.
Tarik Black / Robert Upshaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that. |
So basically 2nd year under D'antoni Jodie Meeks? |
Not close. Meeks that year could put the ball on the floor in a straight line when his defender was trailing him coming off a pin-down. That's it.
Heild is connecting inside out->crossover to stepback .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| twisted wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If the Lakers get the number 3 pick trade it to Sac for their pick and WCS.
That'd be ideal in that scenario imo. |
I'd love that, but unlikely SAC will fall in love with anyone at #3 for them to give up WCS and a pick.
Maybe #3 for Denver's #7 and #16? If we're lucky, draft Jaylen Brown and Prince Ibeh? |
I'm rooting for the Nuggets to move down a spot or two into the 5th or 6th pick, so we can trade them #3 for that pick and their #16. At #5 or #6 there's a decent chance either Brown or Dunn are available. And then at #16 there will be solid players |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Just realized JR Smith is a good comparison for Hield. Meeks can't create his own shot, Hield and JR Smith can. Or JR did in his prime |
I still don't find it as agreeable as ball-handling Meeks. J.R. Smith was another coming of Jason Richardson/borderline VC coming out. Couldn't stay disciplined enough to really tap into All-Star level when he had the talent.
I don't see Hield with that kind of explosiveness at the hoop. I don't even really remember JR Smith changing directions because he used to outquick/outjump everyone. I don't see Hield really doing that. |
So basically 2nd year under D'antoni Jodie Meeks? |
If there is one thing I know about MDA, it makes bigmen add range (Jordan Hill) and guards develop ball-handling AND shooting.
3pt shooting was absolutely mandatory, and that's how Stoudemire got scary from midrange real fast. |
What would you see D'antoni doing with this lineup?
D'angelo Russell
Devin Booker
Anthony Brown
Julius Randle
Willie Cauley-Stein
Bench:
Jordan Clarkson
Lou Williams
Nick Young
Larry Nance Jr.
Tarik Black / Robert Upshaw |
Unless Randle develops 3pt. range, he would probably start Nance since he seems to show more comfort from that range.
After that, PnR with WCS.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kaoss128
Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 13058
Location: Morgantown, WV
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Draftexpress has Dragan Bender over Dunn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
44TheLogo
Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
people really think Grayson is a NBA player right now?
3rd string combo guard at best at the moment. He's just too small to play any position but the 1 and I don't think he has the ball handling or court vision to play that role successfully. I think re-watching Duke vs Kentucky shows a good projection of how he will be negated in the NBA. Seeing him vs Kentucky's athletes really diminishes his stock in my view. He has one move attacking the rim (straight line drive to his right) and relies heavily on his athleticism, which while good is not good enough to compensate for his physical stature limitations for the position he projects at. He does have an excellent motor though. I think he should stay in school all 4 years and develop his PG skills (particularly his ball handling), and I expect that he will end up staying in school. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 44TheLogo wrote: | people really think Grayson is a NBA player right now?
3rd string combo guard at best at the moment. He's just too small to play any position but the 1 and I don't think he has the ball handling or court vision to play that role successfully. I think re-watching Duke vs Kentucky shows a good projection of how he will be negated in the NBA. Seeing him vs Kentucky's athletes really diminishes his stock in my view. He has one move attacking the rim (straight line drive to his right) and relies heavily on his athleticism, which while good is not good enough to compensate for his physical stature limitations for the position he projects at. He does have an excellent motor though. I think he should stay in school all 4 years and develop his PG skills (particularly his ball handling), and I expect that he will end up staying in school. |
Thank you! He's a second rounder if he was anywhere else but Duke. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 44TheLogo wrote: | people really think Grayson is a NBA player right now?
3rd string combo guard at best at the moment. He's just too small to play any position but the 1 and I don't think he has the ball handling or court vision to play that role successfully. I think re-watching Duke vs Kentucky shows a good projection of how he will be negated in the NBA. Seeing him vs Kentucky's athletes really diminishes his stock in my view. He has one move attacking the rim (straight line drive to his right) and relies heavily on his athleticism, which while good is not good enough to compensate for his physical stature limitations for the position he projects at. He does have an excellent motor though. I think he should stay in school all 4 years and develop his PG skills (particularly his ball handling), and I expect that he will end up staying in school. |
Sounds like a lawyer in John Edwards law firm or something. 
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PICKnPOP
Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 5377
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd take Grayson spen at 32 in a heart beat
I can't wait to see what rabbit Mitch pulls out of his hat in the second round this season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AC Green's V-Card
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | Slash&Splash wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | Simmons
Randle
Derozan
Russell
Clarkson
Get used to it |
Two words: Spacing nightmare. |
In the beginning, sure. But as these players progress, they're going to become better shooters. People were down on Randle/Simmons as shooters, and they're already improving in-season.
I've said it so many times but it's worth repeating: reps + work ethic will transform jumpers. It's happened so many times in this league, and it's slowly evolving in front of us just this season. |
The question mark is just, how quickly will they get their jumpshots? Sasha never got consistent. Fisher took what, 4 years? Aaron Gordon took, 1 summer. |
Sasha didn't have near the natural ability. He's in the Stauskas camp of athletic enough for the NBA, can shoot in practice, but can't translate it consistently in games.
At least Simmons and Randle can score in other ways: put backs, dunks, up and unders, baby hooks, etc. The addition of a jumper makes the latter two beasts. The lack of jumper of the former makes them essentially useless. Though I will say that Sasha is a pesky defender and can get under players' skin which he does better than Nik. |
Woah time out. Sasha was actually drafted on his shooting by age. It never translated into NBA game time, but it was there, and I think the great shooting form.
Guys like Sasha are the exception, not the norm. I think Stauskas lost his range because he was told to lose weight once he got into the NBA. When he was a stronger player, especially with upper body strength at Michigan, the guy was absolute money. |
We don't disagree on anything unless you think Sasha has the athleticism of Randle and Simmons. My point was neither Sasha or Nik translated their shooting to the NBA and therefore are bench warmers. Randle and Simmons are starters and effective ones even without the jumpshot. They become deadly with one added, however. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
