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Iron Mamba Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2012 Posts: 2139
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:27 am Post subject: Lakers Offense: Pick & Roll where the Roll man NEVER Rolls + Iso Iso Iso |
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Although Byron Scott has said we play a lot of pick and roll, it really is not. It's more of a screen and roll, isolation plays.
Notice that after a pick, D'Angelo Russell's roll man NEVER rolls to the basket? Not Hibbert (who takes the jumper), not Black (who drives only after getting the pass instead of rolling to the basket to receive the pass), and not even Julius Randle who should be the primary beneficiay of this offense since he's built to RUN. The closest "roller" is Larry Nance Jr, but he's 30/70 at best, and he and Russell aren't playing together on the floor much which is why he usually rolls with Lou Williams. This ends up in Russell taking that elbow jumper 80% of the time, and the other 20% he passes back out to the shooters.
If Russell doesn't initiate the pick at the start of the offense, and the ball somehow goes to any of the other 3 players not named Hibbert or Russell, the play usually ends up being just one isolation play.
Lakers offense tend to be one screen, one pass to a spot-up shooter, then 1-on-1 isolation play from the wing.
It's almost PREDICTABLE now at this point. _________________ Endgame
Hail Hydra
Last edited by Iron Mamba on Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:32 am; edited 3 times in total |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8839
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:28 am Post subject: |
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yep, totally agreed, and the fact it's happening 80% of the time, i think the order is coming from the coaching staff |
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Nash Vegas Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 7239
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:10 am Post subject: |
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How did Kobe all of a sudden just become a spot-up 3 point shooter?
He barely posts up now. It's 3, 3, iso, iso, 3. _________________ |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | How did Kobe all of a sudden just become a spot-up 3 point shooter?
He barely posts up now. It's 3, 3, iso, iso, 3. |
I think it's called getting older. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:12 am Post subject: |
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What's funny is when Randle and Hibbert set the double screen up top, Hibbert, the lumbering one, rolls sloowly to the basket, and Randle, the one who can't shoot, spots up a foot inside the 3pt line. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | How did Kobe all of a sudden just become a spot-up 3 point shooter?
He barely posts up now. It's 3, 3, iso, iso, 3. |
Can't post up when Hibbert and Randle' defenders are sagging off and packing the paint.
Kobe is forced to space the floor with our starting lineup. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Nash Vegas Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 7239
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Drifts wrote: | Nash Vegas wrote: | How did Kobe all of a sudden just become a spot-up 3 point shooter?
He barely posts up now. It's 3, 3, iso, iso, 3. |
I think it's called getting older. |
Well the old man did say before pre-season he will be more of a post up player playing the SF position. Nothing about becoming a spot-up 3 point shooter instead. _________________ |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8839
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:18 am Post subject: |
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fiendishoc wrote: | What's funny is when Randle and Hibbert set the double screen up top, Hibbert, the lumbering one, rolls sloowly to the basket, and Randle, the one who can't shoot, spots up a foot inside the 3pt line. |
Yep so true, the offense is so predictable basically passing the ball around perimeter for 15 secs and then let either Clarkson, Kobe or Randle go iso |
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lakerjoshua Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 11277 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: |
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I see a lot of dribbling to the top of the 3pt line and the other 4 players spreading out along the 3pt just standing there waiting for something to happen..... |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22798
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | How did Kobe all of a sudden just become a spot-up 3 point shooter?
He barely posts up now. It's 3, 3, iso, iso, 3. |
you rarely post in Princeton offense. |
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Reflexx Franchise Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 11163
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Losing Ed Davis was significant. |
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SemperMalum Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 1474
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Hibbert does roll a few times but it tends to be when Kobe is initiating the P&R. Which is odd. I just think everybody seriously needs to get used to Russell's passing more; butterfingers galore. Time and patience.
As long as our coaching, you know, allows them to get more used to him. |
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dood23 Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 12084
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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The summer league roster Russell played with was way better about this. Even had movement off the ball that Russell was finding. _________________ "There's only 2 dudes better than me, and I'm BOTH OF THEM." |
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22 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 17063
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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fiendishoc wrote: | What's funny is when Randle and Hibbert set the double screen up top, Hibbert, the lumbering one, rolls sloowly to the basket, and Randle, the one who can't shoot, spots up a foot inside the 3pt line. |
I was going to bring this up today! I think it's a spot where Randle can get easier points and get himself going. (Was going to post in the Randle thread but that place is likely a dumpster fire by now lol)
I can't tell if it's the coach's design or if players don't want to roll, but it's getting frustrating to watch. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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22 wrote: | fiendishoc wrote: | What's funny is when Randle and Hibbert set the double screen up top, Hibbert, the lumbering one, rolls sloowly to the basket, and Randle, the one who can't shoot, spots up a foot inside the 3pt line. |
I was going to bring this up today! I think it's a spot where Randle can get easier points and get himself going. (Was going to post in the Randle thread but that place is likely a dumpster fire by now lol)
I can't tell if it's the coach's design or if players don't want to roll, but it's getting frustrating to watch. |
I remember when D12 got the blame for not rolling hard to the basket when MDA was the coach.
I think the coach will get most of the blame in this instance though. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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22 wrote: | fiendishoc wrote: | What's funny is when Randle and Hibbert set the double screen up top, Hibbert, the lumbering one, rolls sloowly to the basket, and Randle, the one who can't shoot, spots up a foot inside the 3pt line. |
I was going to bring this up today! I think it's a spot where Randle can get easier points and get himself going. (Was going to post in the Randle thread but that place is likely a dumpster fire by now lol)
I can't tell if it's the coach's design or if players don't want to roll, but it's getting frustrating to watch. |
I can almost hear Byron saying the following:
"Don't care if that's not the position you'd prefer to be in. Man up." |
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Andre2K Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Posts: 12199
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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The issue is Randle is a bad roll man, obviously our coaching staff doesn't emphasize the bigs rolling but getting the ball to Randle while he's rolling is always difficult because he doesn't have great hands and he struggles finishing over length. _________________ My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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This is both a FO and coaching thing.
LA had the opportunity to sign a big guy like Tyson, who loves to set hard screens and roll. He has history playing for Byron and running a lot of S/R with Chris Paul. Yet we went with Hibbert - and weren't really all that interested in Tyson when he was a FA. I get that he's older, but you want to surround your main young talent with guys that can compliment them.
That said, we can definitely still go out and get a guy. But one of the reasons I wasn't high on Hibbert because I knew the need for P/R ball that would come with signing Russ/Clarkson. We do run P/R, we've just got bigs that aren't good at rolling, popping and using their skills towards that.
Nance may be our best hope in this regard. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Andre2K wrote: | The issue is Randle is a bad roll man, obviously our coaching staff doesn't emphasize the bigs rolling but getting the ball to Randle while he's rolling is always difficult because he doesn't have great hands and he struggles finishing over length. |
he literally has had less than 5 attempts at finishing as a roll man this year. The issue isn't his hands. It's the fact that he doesn't roll. He needs to take what he can get - he just wants to eat the pretty way driving from the perimeter showing his ball handling skills. I'm pretty sure the coaching staff will start making him roll more and also posting up more. He's failing at being one dimensional. |
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bonkers Star Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2013 Posts: 6071
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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The thought of a center taking 3 pointers probably mortifies Byron, but I think it would really help unclog the lane. Randle's jumper is all kinds of wonky right now, but Roy's got a solid stroke. Have him float out to the 3 like Big Z did in Cleveland for the pick and pop. |
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dont_be_a_wuss Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2012 Posts: 21415
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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There is the pick n pop, the pick n roll, and what the Lakers run, the pick n look confused. |
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paolomagma Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2009 Posts: 2395
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Reflexx wrote: | Losing Ed Davis was significant. | This.
Davis was a big part of our team last season. He was our best big last year.
Clarkson right now is our primary ball handler but even though he is in his 2nd year and is clearly more confident, he is averaging less assists than he was when he was starting last year.
Part of that is the lack of finishers around the rim like Davis. Hibbert isn't quick and mobile enough and Randle almost never moves without the ball. It's one thing I don't like about Randle's "point forward" mentality. He ball watches often. |
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Legacy Star Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 7054 Location: So. Californ-I-A
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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paolomagma wrote: | Reflexx wrote: | Losing Ed Davis was significant. | This.
Davis was a big part of our team last season. He was our best big last year.
Clarkson right now is our primary ball handler but even though he is in his 2nd year and is clearly more confident, he is averaging less assists than he was when he was starting last year.
Part of that is the lack of finishers around the rim like Davis. Hibbert isn't quick and mobile enough and Randle almost never moves without the ball. It's one thing I don't like about Randle's "point forward" mentality. He ball watches often. |
Ya. I don't doubt the mans strengths. But I've been saying for a couple weeks now he looks like a 1-trick pony. Kind of disappointing. |
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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paolomagma wrote: | Reflexx wrote: | Losing Ed Davis was significant. | This.
Davis was a big part of our team last season. He was our best big last year.
Clarkson right now is our primary ball handler but even though he is in his 2nd year and is clearly more confident, he is averaging less assists than he was when he was starting last year.
Part of that is the lack of finishers around the rim like Davis. Hibbert isn't quick and mobile enough and Randle almost never moves without the ball. It's one thing I don't like about Randle's "point forward" mentality. He ball watches often. |
He stands too much around the 3 point line. Someone has to tell him he is not a SF neither a stretch four without a jump shot to actually stretch something. |
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KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Legacy wrote: | paolomagma wrote: | Reflexx wrote: | Losing Ed Davis was significant. | This.
Davis was a big part of our team last season. He was our best big last year.
Clarkson right now is our primary ball handler but even though he is in his 2nd year and is clearly more confident, he is averaging less assists than he was when he was starting last year.
Part of that is the lack of finishers around the rim like Davis. Hibbert isn't quick and mobile enough and Randle almost never moves without the ball. It's one thing I don't like about Randle's "point forward" mentality. He ball watches often. |
Ya. I don't doubt the mans strengths. But I've been saying for a couple weeks now he looks like a 1-trick pony. Kind of disappointing. |
He's making himself a one trick pony and the coaching staff is allowing it. |
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