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defense
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 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| PICKnPOP wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ^ NO way I let BScott touch this team next year. No FA will want to come play for this coach and it's another wasted developmental year when we can have a long-term coach put in a new system. |
It's only wasted if the young players don't learn anything |
That's a waste of time b/c his ways aren't going to lead to winning basketball in 2015. |
We're not trying to win. Jim buss said he's hoping he can find core players this season. To me he's saying this isn't the team we plan to win with. We're a lot closer now though because now we have a starting point. At the end of the season we will know who fits into the new culture and who doesn't. We will add free agents accordingly |
They all said that last year. Its (bleep)! |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Could someone please ask him who he thinks on the team is playing well "within the system"? The only possible answer could be Nance. |
Nick young, Russell, nance, metta, and Clarkson. These guys seem to get "IT".
Jim buss said he's looking for about 8 rotation/foundation players this season. That means players that can find a way to standout within a system. Lakers are changing the culture in Los Angeles. It looks like we're going to be playing Spurs type basketball from here on. Fundamentally sound, well rounded, team oriented, high IQ players, that give effort on both sides of the basketball.
Basically no "Showboat" |
Except everything on the court shows we are doing the exact opposite from the Spurs. I mean it's literally not even in the same galaxy of similarity. Guys are iso'ing 24/7 so I'm guessing you're being sarcastic? |
We are looking for core players right now. the players I named are doing a good job scoring inside the offense over the last few games (very little ISO basketball). |
Is that why Russell gets limited playing time in lieu of Lou? Or why in the interest of development, when Kobe is out, we see Huertaswho shouldn't even be in the NBA get put on the court to get roasted while Russell proceeds to get even less minutes? Gotcha. |
Russell gets limited time because he is a rookie.
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PICKnPOP
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 5389
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Could someone please ask him who he thinks on the team is playing well "within the system"? The only possible answer could be Nance. |
Nick young, Russell, nance, metta, and Clarkson. These guys seem to get "IT".
Jim buss said he's looking for about 8 rotation/foundation players this season. That means players that can find a way to standout within a system. Lakers are changing the culture in Los Angeles. It looks like we're going to be playing Spurs type basketball from here on. Fundamentally sound, well rounded, team oriented, high IQ players, that give effort on both sides of the basketball.
Basically no "Showboat" |
Except everything on the court shows we are doing the exact opposite from the Spurs. I mean it's literally not even in the same galaxy of similarity. Guys are iso'ing 24/7 so I'm guessing you're being sarcastic? |
We are looking for core players right now. the players I named are doing a good job scoring inside the offense over the last few games (very little ISO basketball). |
Is that why Russell gets limited playing time in lieu of Lou? Or why in the interest of development, when Kobe is out, we see Huertaswho shouldn't even be in the NBA get put on the court to get roasted while Russell proceeds to get even less minutes? Gotcha. |
I think Byron Scott and vet players have a symbiotic relationship. They get ample time to play themselves into new contracts and Scott gets to bring his tools along at the pace he thinks is good for them. I think Tariq black is in a similar situation.
Look at price and Ellington from last season. Both not even in the NBA before the season and both got NBA contracts this season. Clarkson was clearly better than both but Scott didn't think he was ready so he hid them on the bench until he was.
I think if Tariq black finds his way off the bench again we will be pleasantly surprised with his play. |
I don't buy it. Lou is just starting on his new, shiny contract. Hibbert would get more minutes as this is his contract year as opposed to 26/game he's getting if that were the logic.
Likewise, Clarkson didn't get off the pine until Price got injured last year. That is a fact. He wasn't hiding him. Explain why Lin couldn't get off the pine for long stretches as he was fighting for a new contract. Price was untouchable, Clarkson couldn't even get off the bench and Lin was jerked around all last season.
There some revisionism and reaching going on here. |
Ok. The easier explanation is that everyone in the lakers organization are idiots. Byron can't coach and was only hired because Mitch and Jim are incompetent. D'angelo Russell is a bust and he was only picked ahead of okafor because the lakers are incompetent. Laker fans are clearly much more intelligent than the people in charge. Because we as fans can't see the method in the madness, there clearly is no plan. |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Could someone please ask him who he thinks on the team is playing well "within the system"? The only possible answer could be Nance. |
Nick young, Russell, nance, metta, and Clarkson. These guys seem to get "IT".
Jim buss said he's looking for about 8 rotation/foundation players this season. That means players that can find a way to standout within a system. Lakers are changing the culture in Los Angeles. It looks like we're going to be playing Spurs type basketball from here on. Fundamentally sound, well rounded, team oriented, high IQ players, that give effort on both sides of the basketball.
Basically no "Showboat" |
Except everything on the court shows we are doing the exact opposite from the Spurs. I mean it's literally not even in the same galaxy of similarity. Guys are iso'ing 24/7 so I'm guessing you're being sarcastic? |
We are looking for core players right now. the players I named are doing a good job scoring inside the offense over the last few games (very little ISO basketball). |
Is that why Russell gets limited playing time in lieu of Lou? Or why in the interest of development, when Kobe is out, we see Huertaswho shouldn't even be in the NBA get put on the court to get roasted while Russell proceeds to get even less minutes? Gotcha. |
I think Byron Scott and vet players have a symbiotic relationship. They get ample time to play themselves into new contracts and Scott gets to bring his tools along at the pace he thinks is good for them. I think Tariq black is in a similar situation.
Look at price and Ellington from last season. Both not even in the NBA before the season and both got NBA contracts this season. Clarkson was clearly better than both but Scott didn't think he was ready so he hid them on the bench until he was.
I think if Tariq black finds his way off the bench again we will be pleasantly surprised with his play. |
I don't buy it. Lou is just starting on his new, shiny contract. Hibbert would get more minutes as this is his contract year as opposed to 26/game he's getting if that were the logic.
Likewise, Clarkson didn't get off the pine until Price got injured last year. That is a fact. He wasn't hiding him. Explain why Lin couldn't get off the pine for long stretches as he was fighting for a new contract. Price was untouchable, Clarkson couldn't even get off the bench and Lin was jerked around all last season.
There some revisionism and reaching going on here. |
Ok. The easier explanation is that everyone in the lakers organization are idiots. Byron can't coach and was only hired because Mitch and Jim are incompetent. D'angelo Russell is a bust and he was only picked ahead of okafor because the lakers are incompetent. Laker fans are clearly much more intelligent than the people in charge. Because we as fans can't see the method in the madness, there clearly is no plan. |
Hyperbole much? You got one thing right though. |
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PICKnPOP
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Could someone please ask him who he thinks on the team is playing well "within the system"? The only possible answer could be Nance. |
Nick young, Russell, nance, metta, and Clarkson. These guys seem to get "IT".
Jim buss said he's looking for about 8 rotation/foundation players this season. That means players that can find a way to standout within a system. Lakers are changing the culture in Los Angeles. It looks like we're going to be playing Spurs type basketball from here on. Fundamentally sound, well rounded, team oriented, high IQ players, that give effort on both sides of the basketball.
Basically no "Showboat" |
Except everything on the court shows we are doing the exact opposite from the Spurs. I mean it's literally not even in the same galaxy of similarity. Guys are iso'ing 24/7 so I'm guessing you're being sarcastic? |
We are looking for core players right now. the players I named are doing a good job scoring inside the offense over the last few games (very little ISO basketball). |
Is that why Russell gets limited playing time in lieu of Lou? Or why in the interest of development, when Kobe is out, we see Huertaswho shouldn't even be in the NBA get put on the court to get roasted while Russell proceeds to get even less minutes? Gotcha. |
I think Byron Scott and vet players have a symbiotic relationship. They get ample time to play themselves into new contracts and Scott gets to bring his tools along at the pace he thinks is good for them. I think Tariq black is in a similar situation.
Look at price and Ellington from last season. Both not even in the NBA before the season and both got NBA contracts this season. Clarkson was clearly better than both but Scott didn't think he was ready so he hid them on the bench until he was.
I think if Tariq black finds his way off the bench again we will be pleasantly surprised with his play. |
I don't buy it. Lou is just starting on his new, shiny contract. Hibbert would get more minutes as this is his contract year as opposed to 26/game he's getting if that were the logic.
Likewise, Clarkson didn't get off the pine until Price got injured last year. That is a fact. He wasn't hiding him. Explain why Lin couldn't get off the pine for long stretches as he was fighting for a new contract. Price was untouchable, Clarkson couldn't even get off the bench and Lin was jerked around all last season.
There some revisionism and reaching going on here. |
Ok. The easier explanation is that everyone in the lakers organization are idiots. Byron can't coach and was only hired because Mitch and Jim are incompetent. D'angelo Russell is a bust and he was only picked ahead of okafor because the lakers are incompetent. Laker fans are clearly much more intelligent than the people in charge. Because we as fans can't see the method in the madness, there clearly is no plan. |
Hyperbole much? You got one thing right though. |
The point is that there is clearly a method to the lakers madness even though it isn't obvious. what's the point in becoming a treadmill team that can barely make the playoffs and no chance of winning? There is no quick fix for a rebuild and no good coach would come here and ruin their reputation knowing the team can't compete. BS is as good as it gets right now but at least he has one great skill...that's developing young players. Russ is being forced to play the game the right way and it's going to pay off in the long run. |
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LoyalLakerfan44
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Joined: 09 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Iron Mamba wrote: | D'Angelo averaged 19 points / 5 ast / 6 reb in college.
That alone tells you, he's a scorer first, a facilitator second.
Just because he makes beautiful passes you can't even imagine doesn't mean he needs to start being programed into a full time facilitator all of a sudden.
Lakers should just let Russell play his game. Let him operate to score, then facilitate when need be. |
Exactly and by being an effective scorer his passing game will take off. If the league knows your scoring ability is limited you're screwed. They already know he's slow and can be easily trapped. They know he uses that mid range shot off the pick and will hit it once in awhile. They know he shoots the 3pt shot once in a while but he's not a real threat yet.
They also know he can't go around people and create off the dribble. Scott is actually handling this well. Not exposing too much of his weaknesses and letting him grow while he works on his game. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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The hate for Byron has began to make people cloud some real problems with the team.
For instance everyone hates Byron for giving Bass time - why he gets PT. Yet Bass is doing very well on P/R. Isn't that what everyone wants Byron to do? Hard to do with Russell/Randle, because Randle likes to ISO a lot.
The problem isn't only Byron - it's that Russell's a passive player, and he has selfish ISO heavy teammates. This would be like asking Lamar Odom to score 20 a night, when he would be playing with a bunch of selfish shoot first players. It won't happen. Russell has that mindset where he loves to pass and wants the ball to come back to him, but it doesn't.
Byron may be challenging him too much, but I don't blame Byron alone for the overall problems. The FO's job is to have players in place who compliment the type of team they want to be. People are yearning for Russell to get the same treatment Mudiay gets, well Mudiay plays with Faried and Gallinari. Both Faried and Galli are extremely good complimentary talent - they aren't like what Russell plays with in Randle/Clarkson.
Byron's not even an average NBA coach anymore - he used to be average but now he's even beyond that. BUT, the biggest problem with Russ' development is that his game depends heavily on teammates being very good at running certain plays with him. It's why LA knew it'd be a longer project to get him going. They had to have known it would take time to find him quality teammates - someone who's good at rolling after setting screens for him, someone great at spotting up, cutters etc.
We don't have the team Mudiay has in DEN, around Russell. And we also have another PG in Clarkson who takes a lot of possessions of the ball. This is both Byron's and the FO's mistake. Byron for not being smart enough to know he has to bench guys like Randle/Clarkson for Bass/Young. Someone like Pop or Phil would never start Randle/Clarkson if he had Russell at point.
Yes, I'm actually saying the team would be better if Bass/Young started ahead of Randle/Clarkson, with Russ at PG. Russ develops more and the team has a stronger 2nd unit. However I highly doubt Byron has the Phil/Pop type of balls to make a move like that with FO pressure on him to develop younger players. Note - the young players are developing and getting major PT - it's not just Russell. Randle and Clarkson are getting major PT. People want everything and it doesn't work that way. They want to see Russ develop, Clarkson get PT, Randle get PT. Yet the main problem I see is the 3 of them don't have complimentary talent - at least not at this point in their careers. Great coaches like Pop start the guys that compliment each other and bring the younger kids off the bench until they show they can fit in. We're doing it the wrong way - we're forcing them to play big minutes together hoping it'll eventually stick. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | The hate for Byron has began to make people cloud some real problems with the team.
For instance everyone hates Byron for giving Bass time - why he gets PT. Yet Bass is doing very well on P/R. Isn't that what everyone wants Byron to do? Hard to do with Russell/Randle, because Randle likes to ISO a lot.
The problem isn't only Byron - it's that Russell's a passive player, and he has selfish ISO heavy teammates. This would be like asking Lamar Odom to score 20 a night, when he would be playing with a bunch of selfish shoot first players. It won't happen. Russell has that mindset where he loves to pass and wants the ball to come back to him, but it doesn't.
Byron may be challenging him too much, but I don't blame Byron alone for the overall problems. The FO's job is to have players in place who compliment the type of team they want to be. People are yearning for Russell to get the same treatment Mudiay gets, well Mudiay plays with Faried and Gallinari. Both Faried and Galli are extremely good complimentary talent - they aren't like what Russell plays with in Randle/Clarkson.
Byron's not even an average NBA coach anymore - he used to be average but now he's even beyond that. BUT, the biggest problem with Russ' development is that his game depends heavily on teammates being very good at running certain plays with him. It's why LA knew it'd be a longer project to get him going. They had to have known it would take time to find him quality teammates - someone who's good at rolling after setting screens for him, someone great at spotting up, cutters etc.
We don't have the team Mudiay has in DEN, around Russell. And we also have another PG in Clarkson who takes a lot of possessions of the ball. This is both Byron's and the FO's mistake. Byron for not being smart enough to know he has to bench guys like Randle/Clarkson for Bass/Young. Someone like Pop or Phil would never start Randle/Clarkson if he had Russell at point.
Yes, I'm actually saying the team would be better if Bass/Young started ahead of Randle/Clarkson, with Russ at PG. Russ develops more and the team has a stronger 2nd unit. However I highly doubt Byron has the Phil/Pop type of balls to make a move like that with FO pressure on him to develop younger players. Note - the young players are developing and getting major PT - it's not just Russell. Randle and Clarkson are getting major PT. People want everything and it doesn't work that way. They want to see Russ develop, Clarkson get PT, Randle get PT. Yet the main problem I see is the 3 of them don't have complimentary talent - at least not at this point in their careers. Great coaches like Pop start the guys that compliment each other and bring the younger kids off the bench until they show they can fit in. We're doing it the wrong way - we're forcing them to play big minutes together hoping it'll eventually stick. |
No one has a problem with Byron playing Bass. People have a problem with Byron playing Bass heavy minutes at center when Bass doesn't even have great size for a PF and gets killed on the boards and on defense. It has nothing to do with blind Byron bashing and everything to do with not using your personnel properly. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is that IMO Hibbert, Bass, Lou were all signed essentially to be our 3 main players at C, PF and SG/PG - minutes wise. The thing is, at PF you've got Randle, at PG you've got Clarkson and at SG Russell.
If Byron were actually trying to win more games instead of player development, he'd be bringing Randle/Clarkson off the bench, and starting guys like Young and Bass. Bringing Lou in as 6th man. We'd be about 2 wins possibly better. But I don't think the objective of this season at all is to win with veteran players. I think it's to develop the young players and win as many as possible with them. With Russ why he isn't given that extra play is that they (and it includes the FO, IMO) want to see him play better, challenge him to show more and more hunger/fire.
Just my .02 - but I think a coach who wanted wins would be investing many more minutes in VET players, IMO and blending that in with young draft picks, instead of the opposite, starting the young players and trying to blend in the vets. |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see why Russell is the only guy that has to earn playing time on this team. The other guys just get it no matter how they play. It can't just be a rookie thing because Randle plays all the time even when he's struggling. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | I don't see why Russell is the only guy that has to earn playing time on this team. The other guys just get it no matter how they play. It can't just be a rookie thing because Randle plays all the time even when he's struggling. |
He's not earning anything - he got handed the starting job. As did Randle. Neither showed themselves to be the better fits than some other players, but were given the starting gigs just based on being elite draft picks IMO.
That said, you are right, if they're going to hand them starting jobs they didn't earn (Clarkson did by his play last year and improvement this year, he is definitively the best scoring guard on the team) they might as well give them the PT in the end of games. His reasoning is that I close with my best 5 of the night, which has been Russell at times, yet still no close. So I agree there. No doubt he should be closing. |
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nickuku
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Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Everything he has done this year has made me question his intelligence and integrity.
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laker4life
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Good job Scott.
When Scott came here, he thought he was the man. See the article below.
However, Magic and Cooper made him earn it. Especially Scott was replacing Magic and Cooper's buddy Norm Nixon. I did not like that trade as well. Nixon was respected
Rebuilding the Lakers: Byron Scott Was the Teammate No One Wanted
...Unaware of the chasm his arrival triggered, Byron entered a den of hostility as a group of pissed off players wanted nothing to do with him. But, Byron, growing up where he grew up, seeing what he seen, pressed up against the worst of times and the best of times, had been through enough things that being ignored and not spoken to and misjudged didn’t register. Every time he took the ball to the hole on a fast break lay-up, he was given a cheap shot to the ribs, but he was smart enough to realize he was a rookie. He didn’t complain about it. He was the outsider, the one who had broken up their perfect little family and so he had to be punished until they decided he was one of them.
Either you were tough, according to West, or you need to get the hell out, you don’t belong on the Lakers. Eventually, Magic Johnson finally broke the ice, won over by Scott’s demeanor of patience and stubbornness and guts.
Scott never moaned and whined, or worse, he never tried to make Johnson or Cooper like him. He wasn’t a chameleon, adapting himself to the environment and trying to please someone else. He wasn’t weak. One time, Scott offered Kareem Abdul-Jabaar a cup of water after a scrimmage and Abdul-Jabaar turned his back; that didn’t phase Scott either. This was not his doing, he wasn’t the one who traded Nixon. Jerry West did. So, Scott was willing to wait it out
http://lakeshowlife.com/2015/03/12/rebuilding-the-lakers-byron-scott-was-the-teammate-no-one-wanted/
Scott wants the same from Russell the No. 2 player picked in the drafts. He needs to show that he deserves it. He is going to get the keys to the Laker franchise. They want to see how much he wants it.
Let's Scott do his job. |
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silkwilkes
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I gotta agreed with Wolfie here.... Although Byron gets a lot of things wrong, he doesn't get everything wrong. Putting pressure on rookies to get better is a good thing.... you find out how mentally tough they are and if they are competitive.
I see this as a positive. I never believed in pampering young players just like i don't believe in pampering kids... you combine tough love with positive reinforcement. Remember Clarkson to start last season? He became a different player because he was challenged.
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | I don't see why Russell is the only guy that has to earn playing time on this team. The other guys just get it no matter how they play. It can't just be a rookie thing because Randle plays all the time even when he's struggling. |
He's not earning anything - he got handed the starting job. As did Randle. Neither showed themselves to be the better fits than some other players, but were given the starting gigs just based on being elite draft picks IMO.
That said, you are right, if they're going to hand them starting jobs they didn't earn (Clarkson did by his play last year and improvement this year, he is definitively the best scoring guard on the team) they might as well give them the PT in the end of games. His reasoning is that I close with my best 5 of the night, which has been Russell at times, yet still no close. So I agree there. No doubt he should be closing. |
Ehh. Randle did have a lot better training camp/preseason than any other PF
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PICKnPOP
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | I gotta agreed with Wolfie here.... Although Byron gets a lot of things wrong, he doesn't get everything wrong. Putting pressure on rookies to get better is a good thing.... you find out how mentally tough they are and if they are competitive.
I see this as a positive. I never believed in pampering young players just like i don't believe in pampering kids... you combine tough love with positive reinforcement. Remember Clarkson to start last season? He became a different player because he was challenged. |
Clarkson is still evolving Infront of our eyes. His ability to score the basketball without dominating the ball over the last few games has been underrated. Spot up shooting, shooting off screens, getting out in transition, cutting to the basket. This is how he becomes the player everyone wants him to be and not just a one trick pony that can score off of PnR |
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PICKnPOP
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | I gotta agreed with Wolfie here.... Although Byron gets a lot of things wrong, he doesn't get everything wrong. Putting pressure on rookies to get better is a good thing.... you find out how mentally tough they are and if they are competitive.
I see this as a positive. I never believed in pampering young players just like i don't believe in pampering kids... you combine tough love with positive reinforcement. Remember Clarkson to start last season? He became a different player because he was challenged. |
I think he same way you and Wolfpack laker think regarding this situation. Also, I think Byron would have been fired by now if he wasn't doing what they expected of him. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | I gotta agreed with Wolfie here.... Although Byron gets a lot of things wrong, he doesn't get everything wrong. Putting pressure on rookies to get better is a good thing.... you find out how mentally tough they are and if they are competitive.
I see this as a positive. I never believed in pampering young players just like i don't believe in pampering kids... you combine tough love with positive reinforcement. Remember Clarkson to start last season? He became a different player because he was challenged. |
I don't really care whether the coaching staff is doing this right or wrong - nor am I at all invested in Byron as a coach. He was never my choice.
But there's some major communication gap going on IMO between the coaches of the Lakers and the FO. Either the FO is really, really daft, or don't listen, or that they simply don't understand what the coach on the floor needs.
If you want to have a succesful Byron Scott team - and I use that word success loosely, you look at the teams he had in NJ and NOR. Both teams had a great passing/playmaking PG. Ok, lets not say Russ is of that level, but he's a fantastic passer and playmaker. So what's our brilliant idea? Sign Lou Williams. Keep Clarkson - who was a a starter last year. Now, where does that leave Russell? Uh oh. Lets move him to 2, when most projected him to be a starting 1. Don't you see some chemistry issues there? I saw them in SPL right away.
OK, I fully understand basketball positional roles can be interchanged, but the point is, this roster was put together to get wins off the back of Kobe, Hibbert, Lou Williams, Bass, Clarkson, Nick Young then Russ/Randle in that order. Yet I highly doubt Byron would keep his job if he started Hibbert/Bass/Young/Kobe/Clarkson starting 5.
Those somewhat successful Jersey teams, and New Orleans teams, they had guys who played their position very well. You had a defensive anchor in Tyson - and also a great S/R guy. You had a mid-range automatic face up 4 man in West. Sharpshooter in Peja. Mo Pete was a guy that could stretch the floor.
If you want to copy that model - you have Russ at 1, you sign someone super athletic and good P/R for the 5. You get someone that thrives at face ups and hitting mid-range/mid-post jumpers at 4. You get someone who can shoot 3's or be a sniper. How about just getting an actual SF? The team needs weren't Hibbert and Lou. And those were our 2 main signings. Although Hibbert was solid and is an actual C, Instead of getting players that actually can start at positional needs, we brought in guys that make redundant talent and a huge pile of talents/skills that don't really go together. What a team that wants Byron to use Russ in the Kidd/Paul role needs is no redundant more proven talent at PG (Like Mudiay has in DEN) where it's clear Russ has to be the guy. Then players that actually like to finish plays - not iso heavy players like we have in Randle, Kobe etc.
But in the end though - if all this season is about is getting some improvement from Russell, Clarkson, Randle, maybe a few others, then I doubt the FO cares about Byron's job outside of that. So long as he keeps getting more and more out of them like he did with Clarkson, at season's end they'll be happy and possibly even get their 3rd pick in the draft. |
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Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Dr Randle wrote: | | Jordan-esque wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Legacy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Yup. Confirms that DLO is doing EXACTLY what his coach is telling him to do.
in other words, his conductor is telling him to play a certain flawed piece of music and he's obliging.
Whether as a 19 year old, he should be the one spearheading the revolt against the flawed plan is another question, as one would hope vets like Kobe, Hibbert, MWP would do that. |
Read it again. Look at the words, not what you want it to read. |
Ah, so you think Scott is right and that DLO is doing too much to veer from his vaunted winning system? Gotcha. |
I think he thinks Russell should play like Lou Williams more, aka bring the ball up court and hoist a three, or bring the ball up court and go to an isolation play.
All this is the exact opposite of what Byron wants in his PG to facilitate an offense, but Lou still gets all the minutes.
So doing that may earn the Coach's trust in whatever system he wants.  |
Summary: All this contradiction basically says it's just Byron making excuse to play his Vets more than his Rookie.
BS: Winning Regular Season Games >>> Development of Youth |
So Byron trusts players who do NOT trust his system.
That's what he's showing by making this PG needs to facilitate statement, but then benches Russell when he facilitates, and plays Lou all those minutes when Lou can just call his shots whenever.
Lou didn't trust the system enough that he supposedly called off the set play Byron had with him and Roy in the Orlando game where he bricked that running layup.
Byron: I want you to facilitate. Russell facilitates. You're benched.
Byron: I want you to facilitate. Lou goes 1-on-1. I'll play you in the 4 qtr.
So if you don't trust Byron, he will trust you.
What kind of mind game is this?!?!! |
Everything that Byron says, I'll believe the exact opposite.
He's a preaching contradiction of everything that comes out of his mouth.
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hoopla
Starting Rotation
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Eindhoven wrote: | | I agree he's gotta earn, gain trust, all this stuff. The problem is the (bleep)ing system! |
Everyone is complaining about "the system."
here's the thing. How do you know "THE SYSTEM" is flawed when "THE SYSTEM" is not yet being ran to it' fullness?
the answer is... You dont know. Thats how. You can't say "coach you're wrong" when you've never tried to do it the coaches way to prove "coach you're wrong."
There's two kinds of way to handle a coach thats stubborn with bad play schemes/system. You do exactly what he asks of you. Meaning everyone on the team. Run the plays/system just like he asks of you. Lose games badly doing so, look like an inept team doing it for a few weeks to a month. THen tell the coach? "Ay coach, it aint working. therefore, it's time for us to try something new or I (the facilitator) is going to start calling my own plays out there."
If the coach has an issue with that, then you go to management and complain. The coach will be fired like clockwork in that scenario. But, if you decide to Buck the system because you "THINK" it doesnt work. It's going to take a long time to prove your point since you never run the system to begin with. So how would we know it doesnt work?
When you're young/a rookie. you have to listen to the coach if for nothing else, to learn how nba schemes are setup and how they work. You are not savvy enough to call your own number often and get consistent results that result in not only high stats for you but also wins for your team. In addition, you call your own number and the rest of the nba has guys watching every move you make. They will figure you out. Unless you're some type of extreme braniac bball iq guy that already knows how to implement all the things you know. The nba will clamp down on your free styling type of play. Then what? You wont have a plan B.
The best players work their magic within the play schemes of the coach. Not outside of it( all the time.) If DLO was say 5 years in. Then i could see him saying "coach, that's not going to work." And he would be well within his rights to say make that statement since he's been around long enough to know what works and what doesnt. That is not the case right now. Right now it's time for the kids to be quiet, listen, pay attention to detail when on the pine, and do what they're told. The time to freestyle will be available to them in years to come until retirement. There is no rush to freestle tonight. |
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AY2043
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 10621
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | I don't see why Russell is the only guy that has to earn playing time on this team. The other guys just get it no matter how they play. It can't just be a rookie thing because Randle plays all the time even when he's struggling. |
He's not earning anything - he got handed the starting job. As did Randle. Neither showed themselves to be the better fits than some other players, but were given the starting gigs just based on being elite draft picks IMO.
That said, you are right, if they're going to hand them starting jobs they didn't earn (Clarkson did by his play last year and improvement this year, he is definitively the best scoring guard on the team) they might as well give them the PT in the end of games. His reasoning is that I close with my best 5 of the night, which has been Russell at times, yet still no close. So I agree there. No doubt he should be closing. |
Ehh. Randle did have a lot better training camp/preseason than any other PF |
And Russel's been a whole hell of a lot better than Lou and Huertas. You could make a case for Clarkson starting over DLO at the 1 with Young/Kobe at the 2/3 though. |
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mnstrdnk
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 810
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | Good job Scott.
When Scott came here, he thought he was the man. See the article below.
However, Magic and Cooper made him earn it. Especially Scott was replacing Magic and Cooper's buddy Norm Nixon. I did not like that trade as well. Nixon was respected
Rebuilding the Lakers: Byron Scott Was the Teammate No One Wanted
...Unaware of the chasm his arrival triggered, Byron entered a den of hostility as a group of pissed off players wanted nothing to do with him. But, Byron, growing up where he grew up, seeing what he seen, pressed up against the worst of times and the best of times, had been through enough things that being ignored and not spoken to and misjudged didn’t register. Every time he took the ball to the hole on a fast break lay-up, he was given a cheap shot to the ribs, but he was smart enough to realize he was a rookie. He didn’t complain about it. He was the outsider, the one who had broken up their perfect little family and so he had to be punished until they decided he was one of them.
Either you were tough, according to West, or you need to get the hell out, you don’t belong on the Lakers. Eventually, Magic Johnson finally broke the ice, won over by Scott’s demeanor of patience and stubbornness and guts.
Scott never moaned and whined, or worse, he never tried to make Johnson or Cooper like him. He wasn’t a chameleon, adapting himself to the environment and trying to please someone else. He wasn’t weak. One time, Scott offered Kareem Abdul-Jabaar a cup of water after a scrimmage and Abdul-Jabaar turned his back; that didn’t phase Scott either. This was not his doing, he wasn’t the one who traded Nixon. Jerry West did. So, Scott was willing to wait it out
http://lakeshowlife.com/2015/03/12/rebuilding-the-lakers-byron-scott-was-the-teammate-no-one-wanted/
Scott wants the same from Russell the No. 2 player picked in the drafts. He needs to show that he deserves it. He is going to get the keys to the Laker franchise. They want to see how much he wants it.
Let's Scott do his job. |
This is a neat article but huh? How does this even compare to Russell? He is wanted and we want him to play. We also know he is a rookie and that he will make mistakes. Jordan got the opportunity last year and was gifted minutes by Scott. Look at him now. It takes mistakes to learn. Let the guy play and gain experience. |
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foshowtime
Star Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2012
Posts: 4448
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Legacy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Legacy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Legacy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Legacy wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Yup. Confirms that DLO is doing EXACTLY what his coach is telling him to do.
in other words, his conductor is telling him to play a certain flawed piece of music and he's obliging.
Whether as a 19 year old, he should be the one spearheading the revolt against the flawed plan is another question, as one would hope vets like Kobe, Hibbert, MWP would do that. |
Read it again. Look at the words, not what you want it to read. |
Ah, so you think Scott is right and that DLO is doing too much to veer from his vaunted winning system? Gotcha. |
For the record, I don't like BS as our coach. How effective his system is is irrelevant in this particular discussion. DLO isn't running it consistently so he hasn't fully earned the mans trust. That's what it reads. You planted another message in there and ran with it. Just like you did with my post as well.
Got it now? |
Gotcha. But the subtext is important. No need to be objective in this b/c we all know Scott's coaching acumen is highly suspect.
So when he says DLO isn't following his flawed system, then what exactly is he not doing? It's fairly obvious from video breakdowns that Scott wants him to bring the ball up and make the initial pass and then disappear. He's doing that. So what exactly does Scott want him to do? When DLO veered off Scott's "system," he scored 16 points in 20 minutes against the Nets and was benched.
See the confusion this breeds?
So I'm done giving Scott the benefit of the doubt here. |
I hear ya bud. Honestly I don't see the Lakers FO canning the guy this season. It will do more damage than it will do good. We're not playing for anything either way. I've tried to get comfortable with the idea that we're just going to have to deal with him. |
Funny thing is that he's the reason why I decided not to get the Lakers-only League Pass this year. |
I keep thinking of the predicament our FO is in. I can't put much blame on them at this point. They have to see the coaching flaws by now, but also realize the backlash they'll receive from firing one of their own. Not only that, but free agents could look at that kind of firing as instability within the organization.
Just embrace a crappy season and hope for the best in free-agency. |
I also think Jim and Mitch were not so onboard with BS as Jeanie and the Showtime cartel.
I think they will allow him to struggle for awhile:
1) Want to make sure that hes clearly a failure so they dont take the heat
2) Let Jeanie, Magic, Worthy and others squirm a bit
3) Really, no one else to hire and tank may become tempting
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foshowtime
Star Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2012
Posts: 4448
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mnstrdnk wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | Good job Scott.
When Scott came here, he thought he was the man. See the article below.
However, Magic and Cooper made him earn it. Especially Scott was replacing Magic and Cooper's buddy Norm Nixon. I did not like that trade as well. Nixon was respected
Rebuilding the Lakers: Byron Scott Was the Teammate No One Wanted
...Unaware of the chasm his arrival triggered, Byron entered a den of hostility as a group of pissed off players wanted nothing to do with him. But, Byron, growing up where he grew up, seeing what he seen, pressed up against the worst of times and the best of times, had been through enough things that being ignored and not spoken to and misjudged didn’t register. Every time he took the ball to the hole on a fast break lay-up, he was given a cheap shot to the ribs, but he was smart enough to realize he was a rookie. He didn’t complain about it. He was the outsider, the one who had broken up their perfect little family and so he had to be punished until they decided he was one of them.
Either you were tough, according to West, or you need to get the hell out, you don’t belong on the Lakers. Eventually, Magic Johnson finally broke the ice, won over by Scott’s demeanor of patience and stubbornness and guts.
Scott never moaned and whined, or worse, he never tried to make Johnson or Cooper like him. He wasn’t a chameleon, adapting himself to the environment and trying to please someone else. He wasn’t weak. One time, Scott offered Kareem Abdul-Jabaar a cup of water after a scrimmage and Abdul-Jabaar turned his back; that didn’t phase Scott either. This was not his doing, he wasn’t the one who traded Nixon. Jerry West did. So, Scott was willing to wait it out
http://lakeshowlife.com/2015/03/12/rebuilding-the-lakers-byron-scott-was-the-teammate-no-one-wanted/
Scott wants the same from Russell the No. 2 player picked in the drafts. He needs to show that he deserves it. He is going to get the keys to the Laker franchise. They want to see how much he wants it.
Let's Scott do his job. |
This is a neat article but huh? How does this even compare to Russell? He is wanted and we want him to play. We also know he is a rookie and that he will make mistakes. Jordan got the opportunity last year and was gifted minutes by Scott. Look at him now. It takes mistakes to learn. Let the guy play and gain experience. |
This just describes an inflexible, bitter man, who only understands one way of doing things and wants all rookies to go through what he went through.
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Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Iron Mamba wrote: | D'Angelo averaged 19 points / 5 ast / 6 reb in college.
That alone tells you, he's a scorer first, a facilitator second.
Just because he makes beautiful passes you can't even imagine doesn't mean he needs to start being programed into a full time facilitator all of a sudden.
Lakers should just let Russell play his game. Let him operate to score, then facilitate when need be. |
as I said, Russell should be playing SG. he should be the one coming out of this picks for the open jumper.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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