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| Should America accept Syrian refugees |
| YES |
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48% |
[ 43 ] |
| NO |
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45% |
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| UNDECIDED |
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3% |
[ 3 ] |
| OTHER (explain) |
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2% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 88 |
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DaMuleRules
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 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I don't think it's so much about fear as it is about pragmatism.
I'm not convinced that we have the capability to adequately vet the refugees. This is especially the case with politics involved.
For example; Christian refugees pose less of a threat and are actually victims of targeted genocide in the Middle-East. But I have doubts that the administration would be willing to weigh that in their favor.
Of the Muslims, how many are radicalized? They don't have to be members of ISIS to pose a danger, or to teach their kids to pose a danger. A large enough portion of the Muslim population in the Middle-East would be considered "radical" by our standards. We don't really have a process that can differentiate between them and the ones that we consider moderate. |
Pragmatism is great as deciding factor when you are deciding whether you really need to upgrade your old 27" TV to a new 72" 4K display when you can barely make rent each month.
It's not so great as a deciding factor when you are dealing with a societal issue that influences the lives of thousands of people. When on that scale, pragmatism is but one of many factors that should be in the decision making practice, and not even one of the most important.
I'm sure during WWII, the US felt just as "pragmatic" about wrangling up Japanese Americans and sending them to concentration camps as Hitler did doing so with the Jews. |
I agree that pragmatism isn't the only factor. I disagree when you say that it shouldn't be one of the most important.
I am not suggesting anything similar to what was done with the Japanese, so trying to make a connection is not relevant. You're trying to equate the two in order to emotionally tie being cautious about bringing in Syrian refugees to being a villain. |
No. Just offering historical examples of why such situations can't be approached from the purely "pragmatic" approach. |
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DaMuleRules
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akk7
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | | I don't think it's so much about fear as it is about pragmatism. |
For me that's it in a nutshell. |
Pragmatic:
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.
What both of you are espousing is not pragmatism. |
I won't speak for Reflexx or Jodeke, but I'm against it on pragmatic grounds. I don't think the country can handle an influx of Syrian refugees right now. I think this is unfortunate, but, to use your terminology, that is a theoretical consideration. |
Could you elaborate?
What exactly is the biggest gripe from most people for taking in the refugees? Is it the fear that some could be terrorists/part of ISIS. Has there been any proof of this connection at all? I haven't seen any relation between the two.
And AH, not saying that's your reason. It seems like your reason is totally different and as you say pragmatic compared to why others don't want to take them in. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| I did elaborate in this thread or the other thread about the Paris bombings. The political situation and fear in this country make it impracticable for us to be taking in a large number of Muslim refugees right now. Nothing good will come of it. You can say that the fear and Islamophobia are irrational, but that does not make them less real. We, as a country, just can't do this right now. |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | I don't think it's so much about fear as it is about pragmatism.
I'm not convinced that we have the capability to adequately vet the refugees. This is especially the case with politics involved.
For example; Christian refugees pose less of a threat and are actually victims of targeted genocide in the Middle-East. But I have doubts that the administration would be willing to weigh that in their favor.
Of the Muslims, how many are radicalized? They don't have to be members of ISIS to pose a danger, or to teach their kids to pose a danger. A large enough portion of the Muslim population in the Middle-East would be considered "radical" by our standards. We don't really have a process that can differentiate between them and the ones that we consider moderate. |
Pragmatism is great as deciding factor when you are deciding whether you really need to upgrade your old 27" TV to a new 72" 4K display when you can barely make rent each month.
It's not so great as a deciding factor when you are dealing with a societal issue that influences the lives of thousands of people. When on that scale, pragmatism is but one of many factors that should be in the decision making practice, and not even one of the most important.
I'm sure during WWII, the US felt just as "pragmatic" about wrangling up Japanese Americans and sending them to concentration camps as Hitler did doing so with the Jews. |
I agree that pragmatism isn't the only factor. I disagree when you say that it shouldn't be one of the most important.
I am not suggesting anything similar to what was done with the Japanese, so trying to make a connection is not relevant. You're trying to equate the two in order to emotionally tie being cautious about bringing in Syrian refugees to being a villain. |
No. Just offering historical examples of why such situations can't be approached from the purely "pragmatic" approach. |
I think everyone knows it can't be purely pragmatic. |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments. |
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BigBallerBrand
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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that's the stupidest (bleep) i have ever read. this is the type of dangerous thinking that breeds terrorism. are you suggesting that this hypothetical Thomas Keegan (bleep) would now be entitled to become a terrorist bc his family died?
are you suggesting that it is justified for syrian to attack americans bc their families died? his example makes no sense. america (hypothetically) didn't kill his wife/child. ISIS did. ISIS forced them out.
there is no justification in killing others like this (bleep) suggests. if i was in his position, i would understand the circumstances that led to my wife/child's deaths. i would rage war on ISIS, not america.
too many stupid people these days
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I did elaborate in this thread or the other thread about the Paris bombings. The political situation and fear in this country make it impracticable for us to be taking in a large number of Muslim refugees right now. Nothing good will come of it. You can say that the fear and Islamophobia are irrational, but that does not make them less real. We, as a country, just can't do this right now. |
By can't handle, I assume you mean a large number of our populace can't handle it, and not logistically? |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Emotive reasoning is part of any political process, whether it be compassion or fear.
Here's a hypothetical: What if the US let in a family of refugees from a war-torn region like Chechnya or Kyrgyzstan. Perhaps the family would encounter problems integrating themselves into our society, either due to a toxic mix of prejudice, their cultural inflexibility or the effects of poverty. What if the family and in particular the children became radicalized? |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I did elaborate in this thread or the other thread about the Paris bombings. The political situation and fear in this country make it impracticable for us to be taking in a large number of Muslim refugees right now. Nothing good will come of it. You can say that the fear and Islamophobia are irrational, but that does not make them less real. We, as a country, just can't do this right now. |
By can't handle, I assume you mean a large number of our populace can't handle it, and not logistically? |
I'll give my own take, though AH will have his own opinion.
Logistically, sure. We were much more open to immigrants and refugees in the past as we had factories to staff and lands to settle. In time we seemingly integrated that into our political mythology, which of course is the foundation of our national idealism: Give us your tired, your poor.... We are not in that growth cycle, but then our economy is so large that it could integrate Syrian refugees without a significant impact to our national economy.
Politically, I'm not so sure. It seems that 2016 is just around the corner, and there is something special about years that are divisible by four in national politics. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| 15 wrote: |
that's the stupidest (bleep) i have ever read. this is the type of dangerous thinking that breeds terrorism. are you suggesting that this hypothetical Thomas Keegan (bleep) would now be entitled to become a terrorist bc his family died?
are you suggesting that it is justified for syrian to attack americans bc their families died? his example makes no sense. america (hypothetically) didn't kill his wife/child. ISIS did. ISIS forced them out.
there is no justification in killing others like this (bleep) suggests. if i was in his position, i would understand the circumstances that led to my wife/child's deaths. i would rage war on ISIS, not america.
too many stupid people these days |
WHOOOOOOOOSSHHHHH! |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: |
A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments. |
You mean like fear . . . |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Reflexx wrote:
| Quote: | | I don't think it's so much about fear as it is about pragmatism. |
For me that's it in a nutshell. |
Pragmatic:
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.
What both of you are espousing is not pragmatism. |
Yes I am. |
I believe you believe you are, and I respect that, I just don't think it is true.
A pragmatic look at the situation might lead to a number of observations:
The hullabaloo over this is primarily being driven by the Paris attacks, by the Syrian passport found, and by ISIS stating they plan to infiltrate refugees.
None of the attackers were Syrian refugees, in fact they were local (Belgian and French) people who would be behind the firewall that not taking refugees would purport to be.
The placement of the passport is interesting in that despite the claims they are going to use refugees, and despite hundreds of thousands of them streaming through Europe with minimal checks, none of the attackers were refugees. Why plant a fake passport instead of using actual refugees? Perhaps to deliberately impede the refugee resettlement? And even then, why not use a real one, unless you don't have any? And if you were planning to use this method of infiltration, why would you announce it? Did Al Queda announce that they would be sending guys to study flying planes so they could fly them into stuff? Why not? Perhaps because one of the important elements of infiltration is secrecy and surprise?
Use of refugee status, as previously mentioned, would be one of the more difficult and time consuming ways to get into the US, not to mention one of the more visible and tracked ways.
There are currently estimated to be 200-250 US citizens that have traveled to fight with ISIS (as have large numbers of people from all over the world). Those are estimates because authorities admit they can't track them all, and that some of them will or already likely have returned to the US, trained and ready to be active in operations, recruitment, or training of others. It also begs the question, if 250 are willing to go over there, how many are radicalized and in place in the US? And again, why take the most difficult route in when you have folks already in place? Or can import them in much easier ways?
You quickly come to the realization that one of, if not the primary, goals of the attacks was to create chaos with the refugee resettlement, along with creating bitter sectarian and racist resentment and fear, and draconian and invasive responses, with the hopes of stalling the process, segregating the refugees from the countries they are in, isolating other Muslims as part of the response, and hence creating an entirely new base of marginalized people to radicalize and recruit.
You realize that people are easily moved to irrational fears, and will seek ways to rationalize a response to those fears, while not actually doing anything that makes them safer, just making them feel safer, and proactive, and pragmatic. It is akin to a horrific plane crash causing people to take trips by car instead, feeling safer, but not actually being safer.
You realize that the responses will be based on distortion of the facts, downright untrue things, wildly speculative and unsupported risk analysis, wildly improbable and impossible standards of acceptable risk far beyond what they currently face and accept daily, and an actual increase of risk perpetuated from their very response. |
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BigBallerBrand
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | 15 wrote: |
that's the stupidest (bleep) i have ever read. this is the type of dangerous thinking that breeds terrorism. are you suggesting that this hypothetical Thomas Keegan (bleep) would now be entitled to become a terrorist bc his family died?
are you suggesting that it is justified for syrian to attack americans bc their families died? his example makes no sense. america (hypothetically) didn't kill his wife/child. ISIS did. ISIS forced them out.
there is no justification in killing others like this (bleep) suggests. if i was in his position, i would understand the circumstances that led to my wife/child's deaths. i would rage war on ISIS, not america.
too many stupid people these days |
WHOOOOOOOOSSHHHHH! |
steph curry with the shot boi
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Query;
Isn't there a difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED. |
Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I did elaborate in this thread or the other thread about the Paris bombings. The political situation and fear in this country make it impracticable for us to be taking in a large number of Muslim refugees right now. Nothing good will come of it. You can say that the fear and Islamophobia are irrational, but that does not make them less real. We, as a country, just can't do this right now. |
By can't handle, I assume you mean a large number of our populace can't handle it, and not logistically? |
I didnt use the term "can't handle." Logistics has never been an issue.
Edit: I see that you got "can't handle" from my prior post. The portion that you quoted is what I mean. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED. |
Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no. |
FWIW, undecided isn't pragmatic. Pragmatism would require a decision. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED. |
Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no. |
That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.
Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED. |
Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no. |
That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.
Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it. |
I think you missed the metaphor there. I was simply pointing out that there is no stasis, so no decision is a decision. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Query;
What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism? |
Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic. |
My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought. |
One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism. |
That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED. |
Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no. |
That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.
Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it. |
I think you missed the metaphor there. I was simply pointing out that there is no stasis, so no decision is a decision. |
Of course it is. If you want to play semantics, do so.
I'm guessing your vote, if you cast one, was YES. If so you've taken a position. I haven't unless you want to play semantics.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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