Poll on accepting or not Syrian refugees
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Should America accept Syrian refugees
YES
48%
 48%  [ 43 ]
NO
45%
 45%  [ 40 ]
UNDECIDED
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
OTHER (explain)
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 88

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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Query;

What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism?


Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic.

My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought.


One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism.

That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED.


Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no.

That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.

Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it.


I think you missed the metaphor there. I was simply pointing out that there is no stasis, so no decision is a decision.

Of course it is. If you want to play semantics, do so.

I'm guessing your vote, if you cast one, was YES. If so you've taken a position. I haven't unless you want to play semantics.


Of course I was playing semantics, just joshing you a little.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Query;

What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism?


Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic.

My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought.


One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism.

That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED.


Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no.

That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.

Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it.


Jodeke, I think what 24 is getting at, is that being undecided is effectively saying no. It's basically the easy way out of saying no, essentially.

You knock on my door and say "let me in!" because people are coming to get you. And you tell me they'll get you in 10 minutes.

So, I could do one of 3 things.

1) Let you in
2) Refuse to let you in
3) Think about it for at least 11 minutes

#1 makes me a hero

#2 makes me a jerk

#3 makes me neither since I never said no

So #3 just lets me achieve the outcome of #2, without having to actually issue the denial only jerks do.

(BTW, I'm not saying you're a jerk -- I'm pretty undecided on this matter myself).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
24 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Query;

What's the difference between being pragmatic and pragmatism?


Kind of the same difference between athleticism and being athletic.

My understanding is (pragmatic) is a action (pragmatism) is a thought.


One is just the state of being or doing the other. Pragmatism is a thought (or philosophical) process. Being pragmatic just means you are using pragmatism.

That's why I say pragmatism is my hold. I base the hold on angst. I'm not taking any action. I'm 1 of the 2 UNDECIDED.


Undecided is like jumping out of a plane and deciding whether or not to pull the ripcord. Ultimately, it is no.

That's asinine. Of course you pull the cord unless it's a suicide attempt.

Being undecided about the refugees is my position. I'm not against them coming I'm undecided because I don't know if there are terrorist embedded. If that's not a concern of yours, so be it. It's my concern and I stand with it.


Jodeke, I think what 24 is getting at, is that being undecided is effectively saying no. It's basically the easy way out of saying no, essentially.

You knock on my door and say "let me in!" because people are coming to get you. And you tell me they'll get you in 10 minutes.

So, I could do one of 3 things.

1) Let you in
2) Refuse to let you in
3) Think about it for at least 11 minutes

#1 makes me a hero

#2 makes me a jerk

#3 makes me neither since I never said no

So #3 just lets me achieve the outcome of #2, without having to actually issue the denial only jerks do.

(BTW, I'm not saying you're a jerk -- I'm pretty undecided on this matter myself).

24 can interpret as he wishes and you can decipher his take as you wish.

I'm torn. I want to see the refugees use the U.S. as a safe haven. I don't want what might possibly be also accepting terrorist.

I'm not saying no, I'm apprehensive.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Imagine you live in Brooklyn with your spouse and two kids. Suddenly, bombs are taking out city blocks all over New York . . .


A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments.


You mean like fear . . .


Yes. That's why my decisions aren't based on fear.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Imagine you live in Brooklyn with your spouse and two kids. Suddenly, bombs are taking out city blocks all over New York . . .


A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments.


You mean like fear . . .


Yes. That's why my decisions aren't based on fear.


You can hide behinds words like pragmatic etc., but at the heart of the matter the decision is an emotional one based on fear of potential attacks. If there wasn't that fear, there would be no need to deny admittance.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject:

Let them come. The worst that will happen is they might become Republicans.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Imagine you live in Brooklyn with your spouse and two kids. Suddenly, bombs are taking out city blocks all over New York . . .


A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments.


You mean like fear . . .


Yes. That's why my decisions aren't based on fear.


You can hide behinds words like pragmatic etc., but at the heart of the matter the decision is an emotional one based on fear of potential attacks. If there wasn't that fear, there would be no need to deny admittance.


Incorrect. That is just an assumption you make because you'd rather argue against that.

I recognize that we don't have the ability to vet most Syrians properly. Our information is extremely limited.

I also recognize that IS has stated that they will infiltrate the refugees.

I also recognize that a significant portion non-IS refugees still feel hostile towards the West.

These are all true. The desire to not take a high risk doesn't mean that someone is afraid. It just means that they don't think it's a very smart idea.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Imagine you live in Brooklyn with your spouse and two kids. Suddenly, bombs are taking out city blocks all over New York . . .


A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments.


You mean like fear . . .


Yes. That's why my decisions aren't based on fear.


You can hide behinds words like pragmatic etc., but at the heart of the matter the decision is an emotional one based on fear of potential attacks. If there wasn't that fear, there would be no need to deny admittance.


Incorrect. That is just an assumption you make because you'd rather argue against that.

I recognize that we don't have the ability to vet most Syrians properly. Our information is extremely limited.


The process is long and drawn out. Refugees are not zipped through an express lane.

Quote:
I also recognize that IS has stated that they will infiltrate the refugees.


Saying and doing are two different things. It's logical that they would say such a thing because of the fear and suspicion it would instill.

Actually doing so is highly illogical for the reasons explained here several times.

There'd be no point in tying up an operative in that lengthy process and scrutiny when they could simply travel from the European nations they already are citizens of.

Quote:
I also recognize that a significant portion non-IS refugees still feel hostile towards the West.


And during the cold war there was contempt held between the Soviets and the Americans, but that is very different from those sentiments manifesting themselves in violence. Despite the heavy anti-American sentiment during those years and just after, there were many Russian immigrants and yet none of them committed terrorists acts once here.

Quote:
These are all true. The desire to not take a high risk doesn't mean that someone is afraid. It just means that they don't think it's a very smart idea.


A smart idea is based on weighing all the factors, recognizing the merits and significance of each them in relation to the others and making a decision based on that evaluation. Focusing on all the negatives and giving them the preponderance of consideration is not a smart idea and is an inherently fear driven approach.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Wow. Canada has a death wish. They are going to admit 25,000 Syrian mothers, children, oppressed gays, and other non-dangerous refugees. Guess the countdown to the Great terrorist attack on Ottawa is on. Only a matter of time before some Syrian mother explodes a Gyro bomb in downtown Toronto.

Pretty amazing that a Non-Christian nation like Canada actually desires to follow the tenants of Christianity moreso than it's loud neighbor that likes to chant falsehoods like "We're a Christian Nation" every 2nd breath whilst opening up their arse and screaming "Stay Away" in the very next breath.

A Country with a population 1/10th the size of the US, and just stones throw away, will be accepting 2 and a half times the number of needy as some whina-boobs south of the border are trying to shun.
Quote:


Justin Trudeau's newly elected government has confirmed it will resettle 25,000 Syrian refugees in Canada within three months, giving top priority to those who are a lower security risk.

The plan as outlined prioritizes families and vulnerable individuals, including those from the LGBT community.

Single unaccompanied men will be excluded from the government resettlement program for now. However, government officials say those individuals can still apply to come to Canada through private sponsorship programs or could possibly be resettled through a government-sponsored program later in 2016.

Quote:
"Through the rest of 2016, we will bring in more refugees," said Canada's Immigration and Refugee Minister John McCallum at a news briefing in Ottawa on Tuesday.

"I've been saying time and time again, that yes, we want to bring them fast, but we also want to do it right," he said adding, "I've heard Canadians across this country saying, 'yes you have to do it right, and if it takes a little bit longer to do it right, then take the extra time.' "


Canadian Responsibility


Guess we're going to have to consider an invasion of Canada so we can keep our borders secure from these renegade muslims.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject:

^^^
[canada]Sooorry guys. Not sure what all the foos is aboot, eh?[/canada]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Imagine you live in Brooklyn with your spouse and two kids. Suddenly, bombs are taking out city blocks all over New York . . .


A pretty poor argument. You can't make national security decisions based on purely emotional arguments.


You mean like fear . . .


Yes. That's why my decisions aren't based on fear.


You can hide behinds words like pragmatic etc., but at the heart of the matter the decision is an emotional one based on fear of potential attacks. If there wasn't that fear, there would be no need to deny admittance.


Incorrect. That is just an assumption you make because you'd rather argue against that.

I recognize that we don't have the ability to vet most Syrians properly. Our information is extremely limited.


The process is long and drawn out. Refugees are not zipped through an express lane.


Long and drawn out doesn't mean much if we don't have the ability to properly vet them.
Quote:


Quote:
I also recognize that IS has stated that they will infiltrate the refugees.


Saying and doing are two different things. It's logical that they would say such a thing because of the fear and suspicion it would instill.

Actually doing so is highly illogical for the reasons explained here several times.

There'd be no point in tying up an operative in that lengthy process and scrutiny when they could simply travel from the European nations they already are citizens of.


It's not like they only have a few operatives. They likely have many that are working different angles.
Quote:

Quote:
I also recognize that a significant portion non-IS refugees still feel hostile towards the West.


And during the cold war there was contempt held between the Soviets and the Americans, but that is very different from those sentiments manifesting themselves in violence. Despite the heavy anti-American sentiment during those years and just after, there were many Russian immigrants and yet none of them committed terrorists acts once here.


Back then, the fear was that we'd have spies, not people who are trying to kill hundreds of civilians.
Quote:

Quote:
These are all true. The desire to not take a high risk doesn't mean that someone is afraid. It just means that they don't think it's a very smart idea.


A smart idea is based on weighing all the factors, recognizing the merits and significance of each them in relation to the others and making a decision based on that evaluation. Focusing on all the negatives and giving them the preponderance of consideration is not a smart idea and is an inherently fear driven approach.


True. Your mistake is thinking that I'm not looking at the bigger picture and acting on fear. I'm not.


Last edited by Reflexx on Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject:

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/11/26_terror_plots_in_us_tied_to.html
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/11/26_terror_plots_in_us_tied_to.html


Yikes. Yeah, I'll never believe it's as simple and easy like some make it seem.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject:

I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:19 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


You never want that.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


You never want that.


(Sarcasm noted) I did in a thread about a cop getting fired and got run outa the gym.

I understand why many are using it as a base. I don't think some are considering the consequences.

We're on a very slippery slope. Both sides have valid positions.

There's so much to consider. So many pros, just as many cons. I see both sides. I can't say one way or the other.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:49 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


You never want that.


(Sarcasm noted) I did in a thread about a cop getting fired and got run outa the gym.

I understand why many are using it as a base. I don't think some are considering the consequences.

We're on a very slippery slope. Both sides have valid positions.

There's so much to consider. So many pros, just as many cons. I see both sides. I can't say one way or the other.


That couldn't possibly be a worse comparison to the Syrian refugee situation.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


You never want that.


(Sarcasm noted) I did in a thread about a cop getting fired and got run outa the gym.

I understand why many are using it as a base. I don't think some are considering the consequences.

We're on a very slippery slope. Both sides have valid positions.

There's so much to consider. So many pros, just as many cons. I see both sides. I can't say one way or the other.


That couldn't possibly be a worse comparison to the Syrian refugee situation.


I think you may have misunderstood his post. He wasn't comparing the two.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Jodeke, I know you and I don't agree on much, but I kind of agree with what you're saying here. Different people are approaching this issue from entirely different angles. And this doesn't just apply to this discussion either, but all discussions.

Some people prefer to look at things from a sideline perspective. Others prefer to consider issues as if they themselves were in the driver's seat. Often times, when you do that, making what seems like the slam dunk decision from the sideline perspective, suddenly becomes a lot more difficult.

And I really hope the media stops trying to position any denial of Syrian refugees as being in any way similar to the internment camps in WW2. They are not at all alike, and as someone that has relatives who were interned, find it pretty repugnant and ignorant to suggest the situations are comparable.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:11 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


You never want that.


(Sarcasm noted) I did in a thread about a cop getting fired and got run outa the gym.

I understand why many are using it as a base. I don't think some are considering the consequences.

We're on a very slippery slope. Both sides have valid positions.

There's so much to consider. So many pros, just as many cons. I see both sides. I can't say one way or the other.


That couldn't possibly be a worse comparison to the Syrian refugee situation.

I took the humanitarian route in the thread. Different circumstance not near the same level as the Syrian refugees, still about being a humane, which is my point.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.

A definite must. The possibilities of terrorist being embedded is also a must.

On the acceptance scale of 1 to 10 I give accept refugees 9, embedded terrorist 5. Though embedded is on the lower end, it's still my angst.
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

I took the humanitarian route in the thread. Different circumstance not near the same level as the Syrian refugees, still about being a humane, which is my point.


It's not about levels in this situation. The case of an individual officer being fired for his own on-duty behavior is vastly different than how you treat an entire group of innocent people based on the possible behavior of fringe elements that may not even occur.

"Humanity" doesn't even come into play in the first part.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:

I took the humanitarian route in the thread. Different circumstance not near the same level as the Syrian refugees, still about being a humane, which is my point.


It's not about levels in this situation. The case of an individual officer being fired for his own on-duty behavior is vastly different than how you treat an entire group of innocent people based on the possible behavior of fringe elements that may not even occur.

"Humanity" doesn't even come into play in the first part.

It's not to you, it is to me when I'm talking about being humane.

It's not the act and not a comparison, it's about being humane. My position in the thread wasn't about him getting fired, it was about his family being hurt by his poor decision.

But we digress.
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