Poll on accepting or not Syrian refugees
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Should America accept Syrian refugees
YES
48%
 48%  [ 43 ]
NO
45%
 45%  [ 40 ]
UNDECIDED
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
OTHER (explain)
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 88

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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:26 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is. You just refuse to acknowledge that because you believe that people who think differently than you must do so for villainous reasons.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject:

Saying that people who are "on the fence" aren't considering humanitarian factors, would be like saying those are in favor of taking in the refugees aren't considering pragmatic factors.

The fact that they'd even be on the fence means they're considering humanitarian factors because there is essentially no real benefit to be gained by taking them in other than for purely humanitarian reasons.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is. You just refuse to acknowledge that because you believe that people who think differently than you must do so for villainous reasons.


No. You keep trying to dismiss support of the acceptance of Syrian refugees as simply people giving into their humanitarian impulses. The reality there is much more thought going into it than that. But I get your need to ignore that.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject:

I say YES let's accept them. Do as much due diligence as possible too. But these people need to be safe. It really sucks what they are going through (understatement of the century)
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is. You just refuse to acknowledge that because you believe that people who think differently than you must do so for villainous reasons.


No. You keep trying to dismiss support of the acceptance of Syrian refugees as simply people giving into their humanitarian impulses. The reality there is much more thought going into it than that. But I get your need to ignore that.


I've never said or assumed such a thing.

I just said that I believe that the risk is too high. I believe that the people who disagree with me see risk, but they weigh the risk level as acceptable.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
I say YES let's accept them. Do as much due diligence as possible too. But these people need to be safe. It really sucks what they are going through (understatement of the century)


The problem is that for most of them, real due diligence isn't really possible because we don't have a decent network in Syria. We don't have databases to access.

Should we try to help them? Absolutely. But we shouldn't think that bringing them here is the only way to help them.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is
. You just refuse to acknowledge that because you believe that people who think differently than you must do so for villainous reasons.


No. You keep trying to dismiss support of the acceptance of Syrian refugees as simply people giving into their humanitarian impulses. The reality there is much more thought going into it than that. But I get your need to ignore that.


I've never said or assumed such a thing.



Might want to read this quote tree one more time.

I believe the correct response to that should be, "I realize what I just did and it's wrong."
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
22 wrote:
I say YES let's accept them. Do as much due diligence as possible too. But these people need to be safe. It really sucks what they are going through (understatement of the century)


The problem is that for most of them, real due diligence isn't really possible because we don't have a decent network in Syria. We don't have databases to access.

Should we try to help them? Absolutely. But we shouldn't think that bringing them here is the only way to help them.


That's a risk I'm willing to accept. There are much easier ways for ISIS to get operatives here (through Mexico lol), and the reality is they likely already have folks here ready to go.

We can't run our lives in fear. These people need help, and that's the bottom line to me
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is
. You just refuse to acknowledge that because you believe that people who think differently than you must do so for villainous reasons.


No. You keep trying to dismiss support of the acceptance of Syrian refugees as simply people giving into their humanitarian impulses. The reality there is much more thought going into it than that. But I get your need to ignore that.


I've never said or assumed such a thing.



Might want to read this quote tree one more time.

I believe the correct response to that should be, "I realize what I just did and it's wrong."


Please point out where I've said what you're accusing me of.

I am very aware that there are multiple things to consider here.
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Reflexx
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
22 wrote:
I say YES let's accept them. Do as much due diligence as possible too. But these people need to be safe. It really sucks what they are going through (understatement of the century)


The problem is that for most of them, real due diligence isn't really possible because we don't have a decent network in Syria. We don't have databases to access.

Should we try to help them? Absolutely. But we shouldn't think that bringing them here is the only way to help them.


That's a risk I'm willing to accept. There are much easier ways for ISIS to get operatives here (through Mexico lol), and the reality is they likely already have folks here ready to go.

We can't run our lives in fear. These people need help, and that's the bottom line to me


While I disagree with you, I appreciate your honesty and can respect your position.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:21 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
22 wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
22 wrote:
I say YES let's accept them. Do as much due diligence as possible too. But these people need to be safe. It really sucks what they are going through (understatement of the century)


The problem is that for most of them, real due diligence isn't really possible because we don't have a decent network in Syria. We don't have databases to access.

Should we try to help them? Absolutely. But we shouldn't think that bringing them here is the only way to help them.


That's a risk I'm willing to accept. There are much easier ways for ISIS to get operatives here (through Mexico lol), and the reality is they likely already have folks here ready to go.

We can't run our lives in fear. These people need help, and that's the bottom line to me


While I disagree with you, I appreciate your honesty and can respect your position.


Yessir, respect to you too
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
Please point out where I've said what you're accusing me of.


As I said, look at the quote tree:

Reflexx wrote:
Quote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is.
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:21 pm    Post subject:

For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned". Something other than, "It was finally reported on the infotainment news channel I preference and made a bigger deal of than it actually is" ?

We've had Afgan, Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, & other muslim Middle Easterners coming over the past decade, some of whom lost loved ones at the hands of the US military. Why all of the sudden outrage for what is a very regular, organised, and consistently orchestrated set of events pursuant to standing US policy. How did all the worryworts contain their "concerns" so effectively? What changed all of a sudden for you people???
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned". Something other than, "It was finally reported on the infotainment news channel I preference and made a bigger deal of than it actually is" ?

We've had Afgan, Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, & other muslim Middle Easterners coming over the past decade, some of whom lost loved ones at the hands of the US military. Why all of the sudden outrage for what is a very regular, organised, and consistently orchestrated set of events pursuant to standing US policy. How did all the worryworts contain their "concerns" so effectively? What changed all of a sudden for you people???


Ya'll hear about da bomb in Paris? Maybe dats why it changed?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:04 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Please point out where I've said what you're accusing me of.


As I said, look at the quote tree:

Reflexx wrote:
Quote:
Reflexx wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I think some are making decisions from a humanitarian base.


Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.

The danger comes when that is the only thing you look at.


Not something that anyone is doing.


It is.


I think you misunderstood the meaning of my statement, because I probably misunderstood the meaning of yours. Now that I read it again I can see why it's confusing.

When you said
DaMuleRules wrote:
Not something that anyone is doing.

I thought you were responding to
Reflexx wrote:
Of course. It is something that must be taken into consideration.


So I responded that it is something that we take into consideration.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned". Something other than, "It was finally reported on the infotainment news channel I preference and made a bigger deal of than it actually is" ?

We've had Afgan, Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, & other muslim Middle Easterners coming over the past decade, some of whom lost loved ones at the hands of the US military. Why all of the sudden outrage for what is a very regular, organised, and consistently orchestrated set of events pursuant to standing US policy. How did all the worryworts contain their "concerns" so effectively? What changed all of a sudden for you people???


Ya'll hear about da bomb in Paris? Maybe dats why it changed?


And it's not like everything has been rosy. http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/11/26_terror_plots_in_us_tied_to.html
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned". Something other than, "It was finally reported on the infotainment news channel I preference and made a bigger deal of than it actually is" ?

We've had Afgan, Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, Kurdish, & other muslim Middle Easterners coming over the past decade, some of whom lost loved ones at the hands of the US military. Why all of the sudden outrage for what is a very regular, organised, and consistently orchestrated set of events pursuant to standing US policy. How did all the worryworts contain their "concerns" so effectively? What changed all of a sudden for you people???


You answered your own question. It's the media cycle and the paranoia it instills. No one was concerned about the Syrian refugee situation until two weeks ago. Nothing has changed in that situation, it's just as non-threatening as it was two weeks ago. The only concerns people were expressing prior to the 13th were for the refugees themselves and the hardships of making the exodus and the difficulties they faced when arriving at safe haven.

But then the Paris attack came along and some people fed into the exact thing that ISIS wanted - making decisions based on manipulated fears and changing their ideals and resolve by letting the associated fears alter their thoughts and actions.

All this despite the fact that none of what happened in Paris had anything to do with the refugee situation.

As you well know, that's exactly the dynamic that groups like ISIS seize upon, and why they make threats to exploit it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
I think you misunderstood the meaning of my statement, because I probably misunderstood the meaning of yours. Now that I read it again I can see why it's confusing.


Fair enough
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:

Quote:

For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:

Quote:

For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned".


ISIS


So when the boogeyman of the day that was being sold was the dang Nazi's & Japs, you'd have been for ending acceptance of German & Japanese refugees?

And when that boogeyman was replaced with the blanket "Commies", then you were against refugees from the Soviet Bloc, Vietnam, & Cuba?

And when the new boogeyman became "Axis of Evildoers", did you suddenly become vocal against accepting Venezuelans & Iranians?

What about after 9/11 when the new boogeyman you were sold was Al Qaeda? Were you on record against accepting refugees from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Tunisia, Nigeria, Kenya, Afganistan, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon?

What about Mexican & Central American refugees? Acceptable?

Exactly what is the criteria you consistently use for blanket refusals?

Have you seen the demographics of the proposed Syrian refugees? Are you even aware that fewer than 5% are single males between the ages of 16 & 40? Are you aware that the overwhelming majority wh have applied are women with their children?

It would be helpful if you folks actually shared your refusal criteria, if you know what that criteria is?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject:

Can't wait for the day when people stop equating what is happening with Syria to what happened with Japanese Americans during WW2.

Completely different scenarios and comparing the two is just ignorance that by today's definition, would be considered flat out racist.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:

Quote:

For the past decade the US has accepted on average about 33,000 refugees per year from the Middle East, the overwhelming majority muslim, Can someone please tell me why all of a sudden they're "concerned".


ISIS


So when the boogeyman of the day that was being sold was the dang Nazi's & Japs, you'd have been for ending acceptance of German & Japanese refugees?

And when that boogeyman was replaced with the blanket "Commies", then you were against refugees from the Soviet Bloc, Vietnam, & Cuba?

And when the new boogeyman became "Axis of Evildoers", did you suddenly become vocal against accepting Venezuelans & Iranians?

What about after 9/11 when the new boogeyman you were sold was Al Qaeda? Were you on record against accepting refugees from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Tunisia, Nigeria, Kenya, Afganistan, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon?

What about Mexican & Central American refugees? Acceptable?

Exactly what is the criteria you consistently use for blanket refusals?

Have you seen the demographics of the proposed Syrian refugees? Are you even aware that fewer than 5% are single males between the ages of 16 & 40? Are you aware that the overwhelming majority wh have applied are women with their children?

It would be helpful if you folks actually shared your refusal criteria, if you know what that criteria is?


I'm not against the acceptance of refugees, I'm aprehensive. I've made that known in past posts, i.e.
Quote:
On the acceptance scale of 1 to 10 I give accept refugees 9, embedded terrorist 5. Though embedded is on the lower end, it's still my angst.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:

It would be helpful if you folks actually shared your refusal criteria, if you know what that criteria is?


Pretty sad point for the US right now.

Used to be the bold and the brave.

Now we let ISIS dictate whether we stand up for our values or not.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:

It would be helpful if you folks actually shared your refusal criteria, if you know what that criteria is?


Pretty sad point for the US right now.

Used to be the bold and the brave.

Now we let ISIS dictate whether we stand up for our values or not.



To be fair, many Americans were against accepting Catholic refugees from Ireland after so many of them displayed hatred towards Protestants and had spent decades bombing our dearest ally - indiscriminately killing innocents in the process. Took a long time for many Americans to learn to trust that Catholics, and peoples of Irish decent, could learn to rid themselves of their devilish tendencies.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:

It would be helpful if you folks actually shared your refusal criteria, if you know what that criteria is?


Pretty sad point for the US right now.

Used to be the bold and the brave.

Now we let ISIS dictate whether we stand up for our values or not.



To be fair, many Americans were against accepting Catholic refugees from Ireland after so many of them displayed hatred towards Protestants and had spent decades bombing our dearest ally - indiscriminately killing innocents in the process. Took a long time for many Americans to learn to trust that Catholics, and peoples of Irish decent, could learn to rid themselves of their devilish tendencies.


JFK's Catholic faith was definitely an issue in the 1960 campaign. And there hasn't been a Catholic president since. I wonder if John Kerry's loss in '04 to GW Bush had anything to do with Kerry's Catholic faith. I realize that Kerry certainly had plenty of warts as a candidate, and I know what type of campaign Rove ran for Bush, but I wonder if anybody thinks that the outcome may have been different if Kerry were Protestant.
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