|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
KobeForThree....
Rookie
Joined: 26 Nov 2015
Posts: 8
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ReaListik wrote: | | youcantguardme wrote: | | King Randle wrote: | | If that's not a direct shot at Jim Buss I don't know what it. Single handily destroyed this organization. |
No he didn't. David Stern is the one that set back the organization years. The veto of the Chris Paul trade set in motion the chain of events that put this franchise where it is. In fact, the Lakers probably have at least one more championship and would have never needed to rebuild as Kobe transitioned in to retirement. Free agents would have been easier to attract too. Once this event happened, there was no possible way that the Lakers could have avoided a major rebuilding period.
Losing Dwight was a blessing. He sucks. Having bad seasons resulted in draft picks that are 100% necessary to get enough assets to build a contender.
Embrace the tank. It will get us one more quality asset and it is the only way a top notch free agent comes here in the next few years.
I do blame Jim for awful coaching choices, but that is the least of the Laker problems. David ******* Stern is the devil. |
The issue is that championship teams are not built based on the draft. You need high quality free agents, not necessarily all-stars or superstars that have a desire to play for your team. You need to be putting a quality product on the floor to allure the kind of players you want. No-one will come for a team full of rookies, rejects, and a below average coach. Jerry recognizes talent when he sees it and and most importantly, recognizes potential pairings to form solid teams.
If West had stuck around I don't see this team faltering to the level it has and you may potentially have seen the next franchise player for the Lakers emerge to take the mantle from Kobe. West is right on in his criticism. |
You sir need to live the life.
Nobody on this team is a reject.
They are all winners. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jerry West was on the committee advising on rule changes to save the NBA from 90's basketball. It took a while to happen, but now Byron's system is obsolete (I don't think he got the memo though). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. And I wouldn't even call it a system, I'd call it a bunch of different things mixed in. If a team actually ran some of the sets he wants to run, well, they would be fine for it. But he can't get his team to run it as instead of going into the O, they simply settle for an ISO way too early or don't even run it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
My name is -----
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Jul 2013
Posts: 231
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| King Randle wrote: | | If that's not a direct shot at Jim Buss I don't know what it. Single handily destroyed this organization. |
Jerry West has been very complimentary of Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak and has defended them from criticisms like Magic's so for him to take a "direct shot" at Jim Buss makes zero sense.
to me seemed like a take on the type of basketball they are playing, not their lack of talent or rebuilding status. i don't consider it a shot, but it was definitely a critique on the type of basketball they're playing which is mostly reflective of the coaching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. And I wouldn't even call it a system, I'd call it a bunch of different things mixed in. If a team actually ran some of the sets he wants to run, well, they would be fine for it. But he can't get his team to run it as instead of going into the O, they simply settle for an ISO way too early or don't even run it. |
If you follow Byron's quotes throughout the years, settling for an ISO and / or figuring out what to do by themselves is part of his system.
(I mean when even Stephon Marbury complains about lack of structure...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiendishoc wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. And I wouldn't even call it a system, I'd call it a bunch of different things mixed in. If a team actually ran some of the sets he wants to run, well, they would be fine for it. But he can't get his team to run it as instead of going into the O, they simply settle for an ISO way too early or don't even run it. |
If you follow Byron's quotes throughout the year, settling for an ISO and / or figuring out what to do by themselves is part of his system. |
I think he just allows Kobe to do that because he's Kobe - and that's part of Byron's poor planning.
But in theory the sets he wants them to run - if they actually ran it - they'd be able to get 100-102 points on the board on average. Instead they take about 7-8 extra pull up 3's they have no business taking (Kobe most guilty)> They ISO way too early in the O. And Russ isn't aggressive enough yet.
What Byron has to do is either tell them they are going to be an ISO heavy team, in which case you spread the floor with a 1-4 type of set up like Mike Brown did with the Cavs years ago for Lebron. Of course we don't have a player like LBJ, but the point remains. The sets they are trying to run and the ISO's are an indication of them not being able to get into them. If that's the case, Byron should make it simple. 1-4 sets, and a lot more P/R. Of course do that, he needs to start someone other than Randle at 4, because you need someone that can stretch the D. He may even be best served playing really, really small most of the game if ISO ball is where we're headed. Randle at 5, Kobe at 4, Young at 3, Russ at 2, Clarkson at 1. It's not like we play much or any D anyway or use Hibbert very well. In fact, Hibbert's most guilty of the poor S/R D because he's too slow showing. Randle would at least have the speed to show on S/R. At this point we're not defending anyway, so might as well get some offense and better team speed for S/R defense and rotations.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8453
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| King Randle wrote: | | If that's not a direct shot at Jim Buss I don't know what it. Single handily destroyed this organization. |
it's not and jim hasn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. And I wouldn't even call it a system, I'd call it a bunch of different things mixed in. If a team actually ran some of the sets he wants to run, well, they would be fine for it. But he can't get his team to run it as instead of going into the O, they simply settle for an ISO way too early or don't even run it. |
If you follow Byron's quotes throughout the year, settling for an ISO and / or figuring out what to do by themselves is part of his system. |
I think he just allows Kobe to do that because he's Kobe - and that's part of Byron's poor planning.
But in theory the sets he wants them to run - if they actually ran it - they'd be able to get 100-102 points on the board on average. Instead they take about 7-8 extra pull up 3's they have no business taking (Kobe most guilty)> They ISO way too early in the O. And Russ isn't aggressive enough yet.
What Byron has to do is either tell them they are going to be an ISO heavy team, in which case you spread the floor with a 1-4 type of set up like Mike Brown did with the Cavs years ago for Lebron. Of course we don't have a player like LBJ, but the point remains. The sets they are trying to run and the ISO's are an indication of them not being able to get into them. If that's the case, Byron should make it simple. 1-4 sets, and a lot more P/R. Of course do that, he needs to start someone other than Randle at 4, because you need someone that can stretch the D. He may even be best served playing really, really small most of the game if ISO ball is where we're headed. Randle at 5, Kobe at 4, Young at 3, Russ at 2, Clarkson at 1. It's not like we play much or any D anyway or use Hibbert very well. In fact, Hibbert's most guilty of the poor S/R D because he's too slow showing. Randle would at least have the speed to show on S/R. At this point we're not defending anyway, so might as well get some offense and better team speed for S/R defense and rotations. |
They do get into their sets for the most part. The problem is that the sets they run are not any good (the triangle is ho hum, but it's still the best they've got out of the ones they run most frequently, most of which are horrific) and after that's through they have no plan B choreographed behind it. It's a blank slate where players will write in their worst tendencies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiendishoc wrote: | | They do get into their sets for the most part. The problem is that the sets they run are not any good (the triangle is ho hum, but it's still the best they've got out of the ones they run most frequently, most of which are horrific) and after that's through they have no plan B choreographed behind it. It's a blank slate where players will write in their worst tendencies. |
This is the difference between set plays and a system. We run set plays. They may come out of systems (like the Triangle or Princeton), but they are still set plays. The ball and player movement in a system is continuity based. Theoretically, if the shot clock was 1,000 seconds long, players would still know where the ball and players are supposed to be going in the 900th second just as well as they did in the 9th second. In a set play, when the initial action doesn't work, the players are charged with making something happen, or the coach says "run high PnR if the play breaks down."
Happy Thanksgiving, LG. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
22
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | They do get into their sets for the most part. The problem is that the sets they run are not any good (the triangle is ho hum, but it's still the best they've got out of the ones they run most frequently, most of which are horrific) and after that's through they have no plan B choreographed behind it. It's a blank slate where players will write in their worst tendencies. |
This is the difference between set plays and a system. We run set plays. They may come out of systems (like the Triangle or Princeton), but they are still set plays. The ball and player movement in a system is continuity based. Theoretically, if the shot clock was 1,000 seconds long, players would still know where the ball and players are supposed to be going in the 900th second just as well as they did in the 9th second. In a set play, when the initial action doesn't work, the players are charged with making something happen, or the coach says "run high PnR if the play breaks down."
Happy Thanksgiving, LG. |
Well said. Which is why I'm not getting on the players for lack of ball movement. It's impossible to do in the current environment |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. |
Byron's biggest problem is that he is NOT NBA head coaching material. Or even high school coaching material.
Last edited by RG73 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slappy
Sixth Man
Joined: 04 Jul 2015
Posts: 74
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gimme_the_rock wrote: | | Refreshing that the architect of Showtime is not afraid to tell it like it is. |
Jerry was not responsible for Kareem, and was the late Jerry Buss who told Jack Kent Cooke and Jerry West that if they drafted Moncrief instead of Magic, they could find another soul to buy the team. And Worthy was good, but Jerry passed on the eventual no. 3 pick, Dominique Wilkins, you know, the human highlight film. Would rather likely have won a few more titles had West taken Dominique instead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joey25
Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2015
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| this is my translation of this quote ''byron scott is a terrible coach and it hurts to see him destroy my favorite team'' jerry west is a great basketball mind.he knows what he's talking about.this is not how you should play this game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38789
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genaro wrote: | | I disagree with Jerry on this one. They just need to man up. |
More wind sprints and 2 a days coming up.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | let's see..
-we have an aging superstar playing out of position
-an exceptional 2nd year PG playing out of position
-a PF who is essentially a rookie-
-an outcast Center
-all being led by a struggling rookie PG...
yeah, quite easy to know why we are playing this kind of basketball. Lakers FO (bleep) the bed. |
the list is all true. but it still doesn't explain what we are seeing on the court as far as a plan or system or anything they are working towards. The only thing that makes sense is that they are trying to give the playmaking decisions to DR but he still isn't ready yet. if that's true, that means the org is basically acknowledging that they are not at all trying to win this year, and probably is fine with a bad or terrible record.
but I still wonder why all the players look like they don't know what is going on. simple plays that turn into iso is what we are seeing. But again, maybe they are also trying to learn what DaR is calling.
Also, this means the team is placing an exceptional amount of trust in DaR. Like they are invested in him for some time to come? which would be interesting to me because...well, what do they see? (I'm not saying he sucks) I'm saying they must see something that we really haven't seen as fans that is convincing them that yes, this is the right guy. |
the list actually does explain why the Lakers are playing poorly... all of them are adjusting to new roles, new scenery, etc...
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ^Ok then why did the Lakers play so poorly last year? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| fiendishoc wrote: | | ^Ok then why did the Lakers play so poorly last year? |
Byron started poorly, his offense looked really terrible. defensively, we were awful. Kobe got injured. Byron got into some mind games with Lin, then Ronnie Price became the starter. add to the fact that the Lakers were tanking, tried to keep their draft pick.
this year, Lakers were actually were trying to win AND make the playoffs... that was the goal.. I don't know how they thought they could've managed making the playoffs with this roster, and with guys being forced to play out of position.
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dood23
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 12084
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only person out of position is Kobe, who is old no matter where you put him.
_________________
"There's only 2 dudes better than me, and I'm BOTH OF THEM." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
watchME
Star Player
Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 3384
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | They do get into their sets for the most part. The problem is that the sets they run are not any good (the triangle is ho hum, but it's still the best they've got out of the ones they run most frequently, most of which are horrific) and after that's through they have no plan B choreographed behind it. It's a blank slate where players will write in their worst tendencies. |
This is the difference between set plays and a system. We run set plays. They may come out of systems (like the Triangle or Princeton), but they are still set plays. The ball and player movement in a system is continuity based. Theoretically, if the shot clock was 1,000 seconds long, players would still know where the ball and players are supposed to be going in the 900th second just as well as they did in the 9th second. In a set play, when the initial action doesn't work, the players are charged with making something happen, or the coach says "run high PnR if the play breaks down."
Happy Thanksgiving, LG. |
can you email this (bleep) to byron? If we decide to run a set play and the defense defends it the right way we will end up with a bad shot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FromMagicToKobe
Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2015
Posts: 667
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dood23 wrote: | | The only person out of position is Kobe, who is old no matter where you put him. |
Really? so Bass isn't out of position? Clarkson isn't out of position? Lou Williams hasn't been played out of position? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17679
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What I'm hoping for. Let Kobe and Byron continue to dig the Lakers in a big hole. Come January/February fie Scott and hope Kobe see's it's nothing left to be gained from him playing and retires (assuming he keeps this up). Hopefully we trade Lou/Bass for anything. Should have value around the league
Roy/Black
Randle/Nance
A.Brown/MWP
Clarkson/N.Young
Russell
The common thought is Byron is a good coach for the year since we want to tank. The hope is we are in such a big hole from the rest of the league outside of the 76ers it really wouldn't matter the extra wins that would come from another coach outside of Scott
Clarkson/Russell/Randle need the keys to this team and that wont happen until Kobe/Scott is gone.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dood23
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Posts: 12084
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FromMagicToKobe wrote: | | dood23 wrote: | | The only person out of position is Kobe, who is old no matter where you put him. |
Really? so Bass isn't out of position? Clarkson isn't out of position? Lou Williams hasn't been played out of position? |
Starting lineup, but hey.
_________________
"There's only 2 dudes better than me, and I'm BOTH OF THEM." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30704
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Byron's biggest problem isn't his system, it's that he doesn't know how to get players to run his system. And I wouldn't even call it a system, I'd call it a bunch of different things mixed in. If a team actually ran some of the sets he wants to run, well, they would be fine for it. But he can't get his team to run it as instead of going into the O, they simply settle for an ISO way too early or don't even run it. |
If you follow Byron's quotes throughout the year, settling for an ISO and / or figuring out what to do by themselves is part of his system. |
I think he just allows Kobe to do that because he's Kobe - and that's part of Byron's poor planning.
But in theory the sets he wants them to run - if they actually ran it - they'd be able to get 100-102 points on the board on average. Instead they take about 7-8 extra pull up 3's they have no business taking (Kobe most guilty)> They ISO way too early in the O. And Russ isn't aggressive enough yet.
What Byron has to do is either tell them they are going to be an ISO heavy team, in which case you spread the floor with a 1-4 type of set up like Mike Brown did with the Cavs years ago for Lebron. Of course we don't have a player like LBJ, but the point remains. The sets they are trying to run and the ISO's are an indication of them not being able to get into them. If that's the case, Byron should make it simple. 1-4 sets, and a lot more P/R. Of course do that, he needs to start someone other than Randle at 4, because you need someone that can stretch the D. He may even be best served playing really, really small most of the game if ISO ball is where we're headed. Randle at 5, Kobe at 4, Young at 3, Russ at 2, Clarkson at 1. It's not like we play much or any D anyway or use Hibbert very well. In fact, Hibbert's most guilty of the poor S/R D because he's too slow showing. Randle would at least have the speed to show on S/R. At this point we're not defending anyway, so might as well get some offense and better team speed for S/R defense and rotations. |
Scott's been doing this his entire career. It certainly isn't born out of having Kobe on the roster at all.
Jason Kidd basically "went to work" at the 1. Part of what led to the breakup other than Byron being a lazy ass was Kidd looking over to Byron during crunch time and Byron looking away and Kidd back then was incensed.
Chris Paul "went to work" at the 1.
Difference is for these two guys, it was distributing. Even then, Chris Paul does a large part of his offense in isolation the other part on PnR.
Kyrie Irvine? More isolation. Just ask him, he even mentions what he learned under Byron when he was asked. "Isos".
It's the same ish, different player. Now it's Kobe, post achilles, busted knee, busted shoulder at 37.
People talk about Princeton this or that. Pete Carrill (probably THE guy to talk about the Princeton) even stated:
"NG: Byron Scott said in training camp he was going to run your Princeton Offense with a few changes. Have you seen the Lakers play, and do they run the Princeton?
[Pete Carril]: Yes, I've watched them, and so far I haven't seem them run the Princeton. In today's NBA, people say you're running the Princeton if you make two passes (laughs). If you watch the Spurs, they come close to running it with the way they pass, the way their players move. But they run more than I did at Princeton. The thing I did as a coach with my offense is after I'd seen what my players can and cannot do, then I'd adjust my system to them."
http://afansnotes.posthaven.com/legendary-princeton-coach-tells-me-about-lin
Can we all agree to put the fact that the Lakers are running the Princeton to rest? Call it the headless chicken offense. The chuck it up, I gotta get mine offense. Or maybe the We-Don't-Really-Have-A-System System. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FromMagicToKobe
Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2015
Posts: 667
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dood23 wrote: | | FromMagicToKobe wrote: | | dood23 wrote: | | The only person out of position is Kobe, who is old no matter where you put him. |
Really? so Bass isn't out of position? Clarkson isn't out of position? Lou Williams hasn't been played out of position? |
Starting lineup, but hey. |
Clarkson is in the starting lineup and its arguable he should be starting at PG. Our bench has also been a bigger problem than our starters. Either way I'd like to see Kobe at SG more but it'd probably wouldnt help him shoot better. We have a lot of guys out of position though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29336
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Young, Bass, and Kelly should all be considered for our starting lineup.
The spacing and play execution is horrible with our current starting 5.
Out of Russell, Clarkson, and Randle. Bring one of those guys off the bench. Maybe 2.
Through the middle of the rotation make sure 2 out of the 3 are on the court at all times. Then finish with who's playing the best that day. It could end up being all 3 of the guys some games.
It really is as easy as it sounds. There just isn't enough ball to go around for our young play-makers the way the rotation is now.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
