RPM is out. Kobe is the worst starting small forward in the league
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Magic2Kobe
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: RPM is out. Kobe is the worst starting small forward in the league

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/5

DeAngelo and Clarkson rank 66 and 73 respectively among PGs.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/1

I know a lot of you don't like advanced stats, and with regard to Russell and Clarkson, I don't think their ranking is indicative of their true impact (Byron's coaching and Kobe's floor presence has strangled their games), but I think these rankings seem pretty accurate to what we see on the floor. Randle being one of the worst among starting PFs is especially troubling. And I don't think the Byron/Kobe factor plays much of a part there. His lack of length, lack of a jumper, and non-playmaking abilities are big liabilities.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/6



Discuss.
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Worthy42
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:40 pm    Post subject:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject:

A lot of the absolute number of RPM just means you have a bad team, of which coaching has a big influence.
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driver
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:44 pm    Post subject:

Dude, Roy is top10, that's pretty good. But not good enough to overcome Bass playing in the 4th.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject:

Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?
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kobeslaker
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:59 pm    Post subject:

It's not news. We know that long time ago.
It's just means lakers suck.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject:

Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.


We have a system. Among the Lakers FO it's called "Tank". To the rest of us paying/viewing idiots, it's called "Man Up".
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dabask11
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?


Of course Kobe will be fine on a good team.

He'll rack up so many dnp's the world won't see his horrible play.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject:

I like to drive between 2000 and 3000 rpm, good gas mileage
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kobeslaker
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject:

dabask11 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?


Of course Kobe will be fine on a good team.

He'll rack up so many dnp's the world won't see his horrible play.


Or he won't tear his achilles to secure the playoffs spot, and watch a team that suck and get swept in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:35 pm    Post subject:

Must be really painful to be ranked #74 at your position

and then look up the list and see Nick Young at #50

ouch. major ouch
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:42 pm    Post subject:

kobeslaker wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?


Of course Kobe will be fine on a good team.

He'll rack up so many dnp's the world won't see his horrible play.


Or he won't tear his achilles to secure the playoffs spot, and watch a team that suck and get swept in the playoffs.


He was like 2 year younger then
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject:

kobeslaker wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?


Of course Kobe will be fine on a good team.

He'll rack up so many dnp's the world won't see his horrible play.


Or he won't tear his achilles to secure the playoffs spot, and watch a team that suck and get swept in the playoffs.


He would have torn his Achilles regardless
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tox
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:30 pm    Post subject:

Surprise to absolutely no one. Kobe's been (bleep) terrible this year. He can't shoot and he can't get to the basket, and he stopped playing defense years ago. At this point his biggest value is being able to set up the offense, kind of like what he did last year after... the Kings game? And the Lakers have enough guys who need the ball in their hands. Just play Kobe with the bench, minus a nominal 4-5 minutes at the start of the 1st and 3rd, as well as maybe crunch time in the 4th to keep up appearances. 24 min, maybe 28 if it's a close game.

Also lol @ Okafor. Can't really blame him since his teammates are hot trash though. Randle's numbers aren't concerning; in fact, it's exciting to see that his defensive numbers are good (I can never get a good read on his defense). His offense is not polished at all. If/ when he gets a consistent right hand, continues to diversify his attacking the paint (he's doing that now so props), and gets a midrange jumper, his offensive numbers will come.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject:

Holy hell at Okafor being dead last.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Worthy42 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

Jesus...

But with the Lakers situation its no surprise the results. There's no ball movement and we're pined with a heavy dose of ISO ladened guys. Until coaching forces some changes or instills A SYSTEM... nothing will change.

this is the truth.
the problem with stats in basketball is that it doesn't explain anything. of all the major pro sports, stats is the LEAST useful in basketball for this purpose.

the stats don't indicate how good or bad the players are. it's just saying that the team is playing awful. you put 98 mj on this team, and it's still going to be basically the same. you drop this old kobe on a good team, and he'll be fine.

stats aside, the truth is the plays just look dumb. and then you think maybe they're working on it. so you watch the next game and you don't see a change or a difference, still dumb. so that's the problem. why can't we see a plan, from the fan's perspective?


Yet, players on the same team, that often play together, have different RPMs.

Do you really need stats to tell you Kobe is playing like one of the worst players in the league?

Does anyone know if he is the only starter or player in the association averaging more Field Goal Attempts per game than actual Points per game?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject:

^^^ Like clockwork...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
Holy hell at Okafor being dead last.


Mudiay as well
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject:

driver wrote:
Dude, Roy is top10, that's pretty good. But not good enough to overcome Bass playing in the 4th.


His RPM is likely boosted by Bass being his backup.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject:

dabask11 wrote:
Megaton wrote:
Holy hell at Okafor being dead last.


Mudiay as well


Oh dang you're right.

All those turnovers and his overrated speed ain't doing him any favors.
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tox
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:09 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
driver wrote:
Dude, Roy is top10, that's pretty good. But not good enough to overcome Bass playing in the 4th.


His RPM is likely boosted by Bass being his backup.


Wow, I did not know RPM doesn't even try to correct for substitution patterns. Also, it apparently uses some Bayesian priors so Roy's #s are probably inflated by rep.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:13 pm    Post subject:

Randle is kind of difficult to dismantle. Is he so bad because he is incapable of playing better or is he just a victime of bad coaching?

He is not cutting, setting picks etc. Which actually limits his touches. And when he gets the ball, he goes iso from high elbow or beyond the ark. Very ineffective. He is not rotating well on defense.
But these could all be also problems with coaching. Maybe Randle is doing exactly what he is told to do?

To some extent I doubt. I thinkt there are both sides. Our coaching is just intolerably incompentent. But Randle is also ignoring the directions of point guards. If Nance can do the little things right. So should Randle.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
A lot of the absolute number of RPM just means you have a bad team, of which coaching has a big influence.


Out of sheer boredness from the repetitive Byron basking on LG.
I'm gonna debate you on this point (even though I don't care either way).

My argument: RPM is a very accurate analytic stat from ESPN.And here is ESPN's analysis of our team as of yesterday.
I'm copying and pasting from my posts in the Analytics LG lounge thread.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM
Real Plus/Minus for all Lakers

Roy Hibbert= 2.69 .(Offense -0.23, Defense 2.92)
MWP=1.14 -------- (Offense -0.88, Defense 2.02)
Tarik Black= 0.13 - (Offense -2.05, Defense 2.18)
Sacre= 0.11 -------- (Offense -1.58, Defense 1.69)
Huertas= -0.34 ---- (Offense 0.96, Defense -1.30)
Bass= -1.00 -------- (Offense -1.16, Defense 0.16)
Kelly= -1.04 -------- (Offense -1.70, Defense 0.66)
Randle= -1.23 ------ (Offense -2.59, Defense 1.36)
Nance= -1.48 ------ (Offense -1.89, Defense 0.41)
Young= -1.73 ------ (Offense -0.01, Defense -1.72)
Lou= -1.94 --------- (Offense 0.63, Defense -2.57)
Clarkson= -2.33 --- (Offense -0.40, Defense -1.93)
A. Brown= -3.58 --- (Offense -1.88, Defense -1.70)
D. Russell= -3.73 - (Offense -2.07, Defense -1.66)
Kobe= -3.96 ------- (Offense -1.95, Defense -2.01)

*Notes/Questions:
Huertas is better on offense and defense than Russell?
Lou our best offensive player.
Randle surprising solid defensively.
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Last edited by kikanga on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:36 pm; edited 4 times in total
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
A lot of the absolute number of RPM just means you have a bad team, of which coaching has a big influence.


Out of sheer boredness from the repetitive Byron basking on LG.
I'm gonna debate you on this point (even though I don't care either way).

My argument: RPM is a very accurate analytic stat from ESPN. And here is ESPN's analysis of our team as of yesterday.
I'm copying and pasting from my posts in the Analytics LG lounge thread.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM
Real Plus/Minus for all Lakers

Roy Hibbert= 2.69 .(Offense -0.23, Defense 2.92)
MWP=1.14 -------- (Offense -0.88, Defense 2.02)
Tarik Black= 0.13 - (Offense -2.05, Defense 2.18)
Sacre= 0.11 -------- (Offense -1.58, Defense 1.69)
Huertas= -0.34 ---- (Offense 0.96, Defense -1.30)
Bass= -1.00 -------- (Offense -1.16, Defense 0.16)
Kelly= -1.04 -------- (Offense -1.70, Defense 0.66)
Randle= -1.23 ------ (Offense -2.59, Defense 1.36)
Nance= -1.48 ------ (Offense -1.89, Defense 0.41)
Young= -1.73 ------ (Offense -0.01, Defense -1.72)
Lou= -1.94 --------- (Offense 0.63, Defense -2.57)
Clarkson= -2.33 --- (Offense -0.40, Defense -1.93)
A. Brown= -3.58 --- (Offense -1.88, Defense -1.70)
D. Russell= -3.73 - (Offense -2.07, Defense -1.66)
Kobe= -3.96 ------- (Offense -1.95, Defense -2.01)
^Notes/Questions:
Huertas is better on offense and defense than Russell?
Lou our best offensive player.
Randle surprising solid defensively.


I do find RPM useful and I quote it a lot. What I'm saying is that the raw numbers do not make Mudiay and Okafor the worst players in the league in absolute terms. What you could say is that maybe the way they are being used is hurting their already bad teams. But if they were on better teams, their numbers wouldn't be quite so low.

ESPN's exact calculation is a bit of a black box though.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:45 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
driver wrote:
Dude, Roy is top10, that's pretty good. But not good enough to overcome Bass playing in the 4th.


His RPM is likely boosted by Bass being his backup.


Wow, I did not know RPM doesn't even try to correct for substitution patterns. Also, it apparently uses some Bayesian priors so Roy's #s are probably inflated by rep.


I'm sure it looks at the same teammates and opponents in there with Roy (on court net rtg -11.0) versus with the Bass (-17.9), Nance (-16.3) lineups, and gives him credit for a chunk of the difference.
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