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| Possibility of obtaining a 2nd option WHILE keeping Lamar? |
| Very possible...teams will take our trade bait for a good player... |
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11% |
[ 7 ] |
| No way in HECK!!! LO MUST go!!! |
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53% |
[ 32 ] |
| We don't need a 2nd option...keep LO at all cost... |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Just keep LO and hope for a B Diddy/VC type miracle... |
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20% |
[ 12 ] |
| I'd take Danny Granger over LO any day! |
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11% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 60 |
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: There is almost NO way we can get a second option without giving up LO... |
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First thing,
LO is NOT a viable second option...
Second,
This team NEEDs a second option...
What's frightening is people think that it is EASY to get a 2nd option WITHOUT giving up LO...
Let's see:
Kobe makes 16 million...
LO makes 11.5 million...
YEAH!!!!!! I GOT IT!!!!!
Let's go out and get ANOTHER player who is BETTER than LO and OBVIOUSLY makes MORE than LO for CRAP as trade bait from a team who just HAPPENS to not want him and who just HAPPENS to want CRAP?????
Yeah...that makes sense!!!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
It's a very simple choice...if we want to get better, we need a 2nd option...we also need consistency...we don't have alot of trade bait and the one we do have does not fit very well...
We want to get better? We bite the bullet and ship LO out for someone like PP or Rashard Lewis...those are my preferences but it doesn't change what needs to be done...
Anybody who thinks we can add another near max player for crap needs to revisit the place called "reality"...
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drzucchini
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Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 16327
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Danny Granger is good. |
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sodapoppenski
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 7364
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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My take?
Keep LO.
Build chemistry this season.
Next season, hope a 2nd-option type player can be had in a trade.
If not, then we go with the 2007 plan.
LO's trade value isn't that high right now.
Yes, he's inconsistant - but part of that means as much as he'll have "off"
streaks, he'll have "on" streaks as well.
If we're to move LO to obtain a 2nd-option, at least wait until he has an
"on" month or two next season sometime. That's when we'll get the most
for him (this season that could only occur after the trade deadline).
That said, I still think LO will make a great 3rd-option for us, it's just a
matter of whether we wait and sign our 2nd guy via FA or if an opportunity
presents itself before then. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| sodapoppenski wrote: | My take?
Keep LO.
Build chemistry this season.
Next season, hope a 2nd-option type player can be had in a trade.
If not, then we go with the 2007 plan.
LO's trade value isn't that high right now.
Yes, he's inconsistant - but part of that means as much as he'll have "off"
streaks, he'll have "on" streaks as well.
If we're to move LO to obtain a 2nd-option, at least wait until he has an
"on" month or two next season sometime. That's when we'll get the most
for him (this season that could only occur after the trade deadline).
That said, I still think LO will make a great 3rd-option for us, it's just a
matter of whether we wait and sign our 2nd guy via FA or if an opportunity
presents itself before then. |
Well said. |
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tgf5
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Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Odom for Pierce. |
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eniq 0x00
Star Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 2724
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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What's worse is the idiots who moan about Odom being worthless, yet they expect Odom to get high value from other teams. At least stay consistent you whiny (bleep).
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't vote because (as often is the case) the proper choice, imo, was not available.
That would be (assuming that a trade we cannot refuse dropped in our laps) to keep Lamar and wait on the 07 plan to acquire our 2nd option.
As I said, of course, you make a trade if it can't be refused, but that's simply not going to happen.
Considering the likelyhood that Odom will not bring a fair return in value I think it best to be patient and add to the team as it stands rather than depleting the roster to acquire this so called "2nd option". You might ask why do I believe Odom will not return fair value ?
Simple, considering Odom's stats are slightly down due to his learning the Triangle and meshing with his new teamates Kwame, George, Smush etc. who he has never player with, not to mention the coaching staff and the Triangle (as I mentioned) we will be cheated in any trade we try involving him.
As far as a trade to acquire a 2nd option for any other players on the team is even less likely, absent including Bynum in a package. I absolutely do not support including Bynum, again absent a super-star trade that cannot be refused, in any attempt to acquire that so called "2nd option", again unlikely in any event. We don't want to gut our future, just to try and solve a problem that will be resolved by the year 07, imo.
In the end, I think the choice to wait on the 07 plan to acquire that all-star type 2nd option we need, especially considering the relatively young team we still have is the best path to take, under the circumstances.
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kells1220
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Posts: 561
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think he is the right fit for the lakers, but I'm sure other teams are interested in Lamar and have a need for him. |
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | sodapoppenski wrote: | My take?
Keep LO.
Build chemistry this season.
Next season, hope a 2nd-option type player can be had in a trade.
If not, then we go with the 2007 plan.
LO's trade value isn't that high right now.
Yes, he's inconsistant - but part of that means as much as he'll have "off"
streaks, he'll have "on" streaks as well.
If we're to move LO to obtain a 2nd-option, at least wait until he has an
"on" month or two next season sometime. That's when we'll get the most
for him (this season that could only occur after the trade deadline).
That said, I still think LO will make a great 3rd-option for us, it's just a
matter of whether we wait and sign our 2nd guy via FA or if an opportunity
presents itself before then. |
Well said. |
This was well said but it was predictable...
1. Your 2nd option should not be OFF as much as he's ON.
2. Your 3rd option should NEVER make near max money UNLESS you've got 1 heck of a deep team of low priced rookies or underpaid, high-value players...
3. How do you suggest that we get a 2nd option with the trade bait we have? Do you think it will beat out 28 OTHER teams? Or will this mystery team trade a player who can be a SECOND OPTION to us preferentially?
If you are holding out hope that LO becomes a good fit for us, fine...but if you think we are going to be able to add a 2nd option to this team without moving LO, I'd like to know how, who, and what team? Not even specifics...just possibilities...
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | Odom for Pierce. |
If we could be so lucky!
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Vlade
Star Player
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2373
Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I would do Odom for Pierce, without a doubt. I also think that Chicago has a number of players that could help us, and that they would have interest in Lamar.
What do you all think of this idea? (we'd have to throw in a pick, and might not be able to get both Nocioni and Deng)
L.A. Lakers Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Lamar Odom
6-10 SF from Rhode Island
14.0 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.2 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
6.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.0 apg in 22.1 minutes
Stanislav Medvedenko
6-10 PF from Ukraine (Foreign)
1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 3.5 minutes
Incoming
Tim Thomas
6-10 SF from Villanova
4.3 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 10.3 minutes
Andres Nocioni
6-7 SF from Argentina (Foreign)
11.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 26.2 minutes
Chris Duhon
6-1 PG from Duke
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 5.5 apg in 31.8 minutes
Luol Deng
6-9 SF from Duke
13.3 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 1.7 apg in 31.3 minutes
Change in team outlook: +17.9 ppg, +2.3 rpg, and +2.5 apg.
Chicago Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Tim Thomas
6-10 SF from Villanova
4.3 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 10.3 minutes
Andres Nocioni
6-7 SF from Argentina (Foreign)
11.9 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 26.2 minutes
Chris Duhon
6-1 PG from Duke
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 5.5 apg in 31.8 minutes
Luol Deng
6-9 SF from Duke
13.3 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 1.7 apg in 31.3 minutes
Incoming
Lamar Odom
6-10 SF from Rhode Island
14.0 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.2 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
6.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.0 apg in 22.1 minutes
Stanislav Medvedenko
6-10 PF from Ukraine (Foreign)
1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 3.5 minutes
Change in team outlook: -17.9 ppg, -2.3 rpg, and -2.5 apg.
Successful Scenario
Due to L.A. Lakers and Chicago being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. L.A. Lakers and Chicago had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
Trade ID
Every trade made by fans is allocated a unique Trade ID which you can share with friends and fellow basketball fans to allow them to see your trade scenario. The Trade ID for this scenario is 2898806.
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Crazy LA Fan14
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Posts: 541
Location: City of Angels
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers declined a trade w/o Odom in it for Artest. Solve your question?
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B-Scott
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Posts: 418
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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the only way to get a 2nd option ,yet keep Lamar is trade Bynum. Fans though dont want to hear that. The celtics would probably rather have bynum over Lamar because of the contract. Plus the celtics are a young team,and would probably want to start over
George slava Bynum 1# pick for Pierce
Celtics would have...Gerald green..Al jefferson..Andrew bynum..Toni allen ..Nice potential frontline of Jefferson/Bynum for the next 12 yrs.Danny ainge would probably have visions of Parish/Mchale.
C Mihm
PF Kwame
SF Lamar
G Pierce
G Kobe
Lamar initiates and does the little things. 15 and 10. Pierce gives you 22 to 25 points. Kobe over 30. |
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Vlade
Star Player
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 2373
Location: valley of dry bone dreams
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| B-Scott wrote: | the only way to get a 2nd option ,yet keep Lamar is trade Bynum. Fans though dont want to hear that. The celtics would probably rather have bynum over Lamar because of the contract. Plus the celtics are a young team,and would probably want to start over
George slava Bynum 1# pick for Pierce
Celtics would have...Gerald green..Al jefferson..Andrew bynum..Toni allen ..Nice potential frontline of Jefferson/Bynum for the next 12 yrs.Danny ainge would probably have visions of Parish/Mchale.
C Mihm
PF Kwame
SF Lamar
G Pierce
G Kobe
Lamar initiates and does the little things. 15 and 10. Pierce gives you 22 to 25 points. Kobe over 30. |
I would do Odom for Pierce. I would not do Bynum for Pierce.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Unless we trade Odom, the most likely hope for a second option is Bynum. That would take a couple years, and he might never develop into an offensive star.
Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that Odom has to be traded for a single star. We're certainly not going to get Kevin Garnett for him, and Paul Pierce is unlikely. However, there's a decent chance that we can trade him for a couple players. There are a lot of small forwards who can score and play decent defense, and there are a lot of combo guards. It just depends on which teams have an interest in Odom. |
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mrdectown
Star Player
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 1144
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Odom is playing possum and will ball out after all star break.(this thought helps me sleep i night) |
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kells1220
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Posts: 561
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Good one. I'll try your theory. |
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Zhengi
Star Player
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 6445
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| B-Scott wrote: | the only way to get a 2nd option ,yet keep Lamar is trade Bynum. Fans though dont want to hear that. The celtics would probably rather have bynum over Lamar because of the contract. Plus the celtics are a young team,and would probably want to start over
George slava Bynum 1# pick for Pierce
Celtics would have...Gerald green..Al jefferson..Andrew bynum..Toni allen ..Nice potential frontline of Jefferson/Bynum for the next 12 yrs.Danny ainge would probably have visions of Parish/Mchale.
C Mihm
PF Kwame
SF Lamar
G Pierce
G Kobe
Lamar initiates and does the little things. 15 and 10. Pierce gives you 22 to 25 points. Kobe over 30. |
Fans have nothing to do with whether or not the Lakers trade Bynum. The Lakers themselves are not willing to give him up. So it's a moot point.
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wolfpaclaker
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Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you are holding out hope that LO becomes a good fit for us, fine...but if you think we are going to be able to add a 2nd option to this team without moving LO, I'd like to know how, who, and what team? Not even specifics...just possibilities |
Cap space in 2007.
The Lakers will have a max slot. There will be a host of free agents that can be good 2nd options.
And don't say they'll all be gone, because we know that's never ever happenned. There should be atleast 5 quality FA's that will test the waters and that would give a team a very good 2nd option. |
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KA_2
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Cap space in 2007.
The Lakers will have a max slot. There will be a host of free agents that can be good 2nd options. |
Name them.
| Quote: | | And don't say they'll all be gone, because we know that's never ever happenned. There should be atleast 5 quality FA's that will test the waters and that would give a team a very good 2nd option. |
Name them.
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | If you are holding out hope that LO becomes a good fit for us, fine...but if you think we are going to be able to add a 2nd option to this team without moving LO, I'd like to know how, who, and what team? Not even specifics...just possibilities |
Cap space in 2007.
The Lakers will have a max slot. There will be a host of free agents that can be good 2nd options.
And don't say they'll all be gone, because we know that's never ever happenned. There should be atleast 5 quality FA's that will test the waters and that would give a team a very good 2nd option. |
Still living in fantasy land are we?
Once again--here's a fact, a top tier free agent has never taken less money. Max slot or not, even signing a max player requires that the Lakers can offer more money than that player's team. That more or less automatically means you can expect to get either a Joe Johnson type of player, a solid, but not great talent who you'll have to overpay for, or an older all-star, like Nash, who's former team doesn't want to max out into the mid-30s.
So let's play this game again, shall we?
First off, lets deal with reality. Melo, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron will not be available for Odom in any deal, nor will they sign for less than the max. Thus, being restricted, their respective teams can and will outbid us. End the discussion about those guys, ain't happening.
Now, here's the restricted guys we could get by overpaying:
Diaw, West, Hinrich, Barbosa, Ridnour, Pietrus, Collison, Ford, Outlaw...yes, there is a good chance that not all of those guys will get matching offers from their teams if the Lakers overpay (and they'll have to overpay).
Of the guys with player options, Jamison and Lewis are the two likely to be available (again, their teams are unlikely to max them). Billups, Bibby and Dirk won't be available to us.
Among unrestricted guys there's Desmond Mason, Magloire, Nocioni, Mo Peterson and Vince Carter. I suspect Vince will get an extension from New Jersey soon anyway, so you can probably cross him off the list.
So yeah, some good guys available, but no one who will make us instant contenders. To get a guy like Hinrich or Rashard Lewis the team will almost certainly need to bid something close to the max. Then your cap room is almost gone. You can try to swing a sign and trade with Lamar at that point. So maybe you get Hinrich for your max slot and then Lewis for Odom. And then we'd be in pretty good shape.
Problem is, something like half the teams in the league will have substantial cap room in 07. So we're going to be bidding against a lot of teams. We can talk about how great it is to play in L.A. and all that but that hasn't seemed to have helped in the past.
Seeing as some of the targets we're waiting 2 years for could be had by trading Odom now, it obviously makes more sense to start now, instead of waiting another season after this for the inevietable. There's a pretty good free agent class this summer, with few teams having substantial cap room. That means that most free agents will have to settle for MLE contracts. A normal team would make a move for a better fit now, sign another better fit by offering a reasonable MLE deal this summer, and continue to make moves piece by piece. The strategy of making no substantial moves for 2-4 years has never been shown to be successful. In fact, I don't think any team has ever refused to make moves to improve for years on end in hopes that a miracle might happen.
If the Lakers want to tank it for a few years, you trade Kobe for picks, tank it and go for Oden in the draft when he declares. Then you have your young twin towers of Bynum and Oden and proceed to dominate the NBA for the next decade. That would be a sound strategy. And we'll get the friendly bounce in the lottery because Stern won't allow the Lakers to flounder in the gutter for too long (bad for ratings). So far as I'm know this is not the strategy. It is to run Kobe into the ground until he cannot perform at a high level, then hope that a micracle happens (Lebron wants less money to play with a broken down Kobe), and then hope that the scrubs they add will be enough to compete. It is utterly insane. No other GM in the league would do that to Kobe if they ran this team. They'd build now, or they'd deal Kobe and tank it for real. The present trajectory only serves to keep this team in mediocrity until Kobe finally breaks, and then forces the organization into yet another rebuild mode.
I'm not invested in whether Kobe gets more rings than Jordan--the only reason I'm concerned with maximizing Kobe's present is because we have a player capable of leading a normally talented team into contention. Thus, we have a shot right now to win. We may not have a shot with Kobe a few years down the road and will have to rebuild again anyway. So either you rebuild for real, or you make a run at winning right now. Winning right now means Odom has to be dealt--period. The last years have to be dealt--period. MLEs and LLEs have to be used to full effect. And we need to draft smart. If we had a Petrie or a Buford or a Kiki or a Dumars for a GM, this wouldn't be a problem (hell if Kobe were in the other locker room in Staples he wouldn't have this problem). They could make the moves and give Kobe the pieces to contend in another season or two. They wouldn't wait 2 more years to start building a team that can contend and won't be ready for another 4 years or so (when Kobe is on the other side of 30). Spin it however you want, the fact remains that the plan is utterly insane and stupid and I am 100% certain that you could not find another GM in the league who would go along with it if they had Kobe on their team. |
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THE_SHOES
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Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| eniq 0x00 wrote: | | What's worse is the idiots who moan about Odom being worthless, yet they expect Odom to get high value from other teams. At least stay consistent you whiny (bleep). |
Aren't they special??!!!
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | eniq 0x00 wrote: | | What's worse is the idiots who moan about Odom being worthless, yet they expect Odom to get high value from other teams. At least stay consistent you whiny (bleep). |
Aren't they special??!!! |
People have a funny way of misdirecting arguments. The fraction of people who have seriously claimed that Odom sucks--as in, he's a totally awful player--is pretty small. So instead of addressing the actual argument--e.g. Odom is a talented, but very inconsistent player who's skill set and lack of motivation is incompatible with Kobe--you make up something that hasn't really been argued.
Lamar is a bad fit. No way around that. The only way to get a better fit is to move him--precisely because he's got value, because he isn't awful, and because he'd be a better fit in another system with less pressure. Holding onto him in a system he is ill suited for tends to lower his overall trade value because what talents he does have are not showcased to maximum effect.
That is the argument. So instead of patting yourselves on the back, you could maybe deal with the real debate. |
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THE_SHOES
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Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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We've seen all the intriguing arguments RG and the fact of the matter is you've convinced yourself and a handfull of others that as you say Odom is not compatible with this particular team. Fine...
That is your opinion...
You can bring in any player you like in this league and the chemistry issue will not just magically dissappear and, I'm as sure of that as you are that Odom is a "non fit"... This is why some of us sit back and watch these trade frenzies thinking that as soon as that shuffle takes place and possibly fails the silly cycle would repeat itself again with the same folks thinking that, that other guy is going to work better. It's hard to take the madness serious simply because you're reacting to soon. It's just to soon and, this system and young players is just going to have to be given more time.
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"According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.."
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kells1220
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't like the term second option. What the Lakers need is a consistent option, preferably more than one. |
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