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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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Location: The X-Files
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 Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Mike _at_ LG wrote:
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Underpaid? For a non-All Star at a relatively weak position? A non-franchise player?
Sure, he's skilled and deserves most of the dough... but when it comes to being an elite player with his paycheck? No.
I think Odom is an exception to the rule.... inversely correlated.
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Actually, by today's standards Odom is certainly NOT paid at the level that truely "ELITE" players are paid. There are a number of players on the league who are not all-star players as such and not putting up any better stats that are actually making more $ than Odom at this point.
Considering Odom is still only 26 and is still approaching his prime I'd say that he will actually be looked at by many GM's as a bargain, especially as the players salaries continue to inflate in the near term.
Bottom line, in general Odom is not overpaid as is commonly perceived by many on this board just as Odom is not "garbage" as is aslo commonly perceived no this board.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Mike @ LG wrote:
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I think we can agree to blame Phil for this...
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Or the entire management staff.
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Well you can blame the entire managemnt I suppose (more specifically Buss) for hiring Phil.
But beyond that it is nothing other than Phil's doing to play Odom in the way that he does. It is also Phil's approach in the confines of the Triangle to play the type of players he prefers at the PG position, as well.
It is simply Phil's game and his Triangle offense that we have inherited by signing Phil on. So bottom line while Buss made the decision to hire Phil, it all comes down to Phil's style and approach to the game that impacts the way we use our players as well as the type of players on the roster, imo.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sodapop -- KA-2... if you looked back even just to the earliest part of this thread, you'd see that Wolf isn't even altogether against Odom. He's just making a logical point. |
I am puzzled that you would quote my post, then address your reply to KA-2. We're different people.
| Quote: | Wolfpac -- LO's rebounding and assists are far greater than his matchup each night.
This at BOTH PF and SF. Look it up |
We've been through those stats in other threads. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Odom is a good rebounder. Given that he plays a point forward role, you would expect him to have more assists than his opposite numbers, who are not point forwards and who do not play a facilitator role.
The worst thing about those stats is that they reveal Odom to be a disaster at SF. The league average for PER is set to 15, but Odom has managed only a 12.9. The average opposing SF has outperformed Odom by 1.5 in PER. Sure, Odom has more assists and rebounds, but he does a lot worse on scoring, plus he has more fouls and turnovers.
In order for Odom to perform above the league average, we have to play him at PF. That's problematic. The stats show that, when whoever keeps these stats designates Odom as the PF, he has significantly outperformed the member of the other team that the stat keeper designates as the PF. Given that the opposing PFs have a PER of only 13.6, there is statistical support for Mike's comment that Odom gets moved to PF only against weak competition. Even then, we have no way of knowing whether Odom really guarded that player, or vice versa.
Anyway, these stats support the conclusion that Odom is a disaster on the perimeter, but effective at PF. The people who can genuinely find support from those stats are the folks who think that Odom should be moved back to the post.
| Quote: | | Wolfpac -- From you and your boyfriend KA_2 - What else should I expect? |
Thanks for another window to your soul. Do yourself a favor. Log off the computer. Go watch some TV. Go outside. This board will do just fine without your 50 daily posts.
| Quote: | | TACH -- LO would definitely benefit if the Lakers got a '2nd scoring option', because he's not it. That's not a knock on LO,.. I just think it's a fact. Miami had success with him (won some playoff games) because there were players there that took the pressure off of him... guys like Wade (love him or hate him), Butler, Jones. The Lakers do not have guys like that on their roster. I think because of the 'high expectations people have put on LO (I'm was guilty as well) is why he is constantly 'bashed' on the LG. LO performance or lack of (depending on what side of this debate you are on) is a more of symptom of this team then being just a LO sucks/it's his fault issue. |
I'd agree with that, but it brings us back to the problem of how to get the second scoring option we need. In all likelihood, we have to trade Odom. If not, Odom is way too expensive to be a third option/roleplayer.
| Quote: | | LA Lakers Rule -- The perception that Odom is "overpayed" in accordance to his level of play has been addressed on this board and simply debunked!!! |
I seem to recall that the "debunking" got debunked pretty thoroughly. |
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RG73
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Actually, by today's standards Odom is certainly NOT paid at the level that truely "ELITE" players are paid. |
His contract is just under the max. He'll be making what, $14-15 million a year by the end of his contract (or maybe a little more even). That's damn near the max of the current CBA.
| Quote: | | There are a number of players on the league who are not all-star players as such and not putting up any better stats that are actually making more $ than Odom at this point. |
Ummm, yeah, and? You're talking about guys with grandfathered contracts from the previous CBA, guys with injuries, and aging vets on the end of contracts.
So Jalen and Penny make more than Odom is basically what you're saying. We know this. Is Odom going to be making the same money as Amare or Lebron when they're off their rookie Ks? Basically. Thus, overpaid.
| Quote: | | Considering Odom is still only 26 and is still approaching his prime I'd say that he will actually be looked at by many GM's as a bargain, especially as the players salaries continue to inflate in the near term. |
Salaries aren't inflating. The last couple CBAs have lowered the ceiling on max salaries.
And it doesn't matter if Odom is entering his prime. He's still never worked on his right hand, his jump shot, his defense, his post game. A "prime" is relevant for a player who's game is growing and maturing, not one stuck in a rut for 7 years.
| Quote: | | Bottom line, in general Odom is not overpaid as is commonly perceived by many on this board |
Yes he is.
| Quote: | | just as Odom is not "garbage" as is aslo commonly perceived no this board. |
Straw man arguments. No one calls him garbage. They say he's a bad fit, isn't a viable 2nd option, etc. |
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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | TACH wrote:
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So that leaves us with his rebounding, assist and his presence on the floor as a starter. His rebouding is great, it's been a blessing. The assist are nice too, however he is here (at 11+ million per year) to be a second scoring option to KB8 and a facilitator.
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The perception that Odom is "overpayed" in accordance to his level of play has been addressed on this board and simply debunked!!!
The fact is that Odom is "underpaid" if one compares his stats to other players making similar money and the stats that those players put up.
Just check it out, without rehashing the list just one example is Miller who actually make more $ and produces less and the fact is you will find a number of others who are paid similar or more and will not put up to close to double/double figures on the court as Odom does, not to mention averaging over 5 apg.
In fact there is only one player in the league at his position that average better rebounding and assists stats when combinded and that is Lebron. Not even KG averages as many assists 5.4 to Garnett's 4.5. This speaks to the fact that Odom is certainly not over paid, imo. |
Rule, I never said he was overpaid (your are taking what I said out of context)... What I said was he was supposed to be the second scoring option, and right now he is way to inconsistant to be that. I don't think the Lakers brought him to be a primary rebounder and/or assist man (which, IMO, is a role player),... he was supposed to be the second scoring option. |
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ppineda
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Posts: 701
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Actually, by today's standards Odom is certainly NOT paid at the level that truely "ELITE" players are paid. |
His contract is just under the max. He'll be making what, $14-15 million a year by the end of his contract (or maybe a little more even). That's damn near the max of the current CBA.
| Quote: | | There are a number of players on the league who are not all-star players as such and not putting up any better stats that are actually making more $ than Odom at this point. |
Ummm, yeah, and? You're talking about guys with grandfathered contracts from the previous CBA, guys with injuries, and aging vets on the end of contracts.
So Jalen and Penny make more than Odom is basically what you're saying. We know this. Is Odom going to be making the same money as Amare or Lebron when they're off their rookie Ks? Basically. Thus, overpaid.
| Quote: | | Considering Odom is still only 26 and is still approaching his prime I'd say that he will actually be looked at by many GM's as a bargain, especially as the players salaries continue to inflate in the near term. |
Salaries aren't inflating. The last couple CBAs have lowered the ceiling on max salaries.
And it doesn't matter if Odom is entering his prime. He's still never worked on his right hand, his jump shot, his defense, his post game. A "prime" is relevant for a player who's game is growing and maturing, not one stuck in a rut for 7 years.
| Quote: | | Bottom line, in general Odom is not overpaid as is commonly perceived by many on this board |
Yes he is.
| Quote: | | just as Odom is not "garbage" as is aslo commonly perceived no this board. |
Straw man arguments. No one calls him garbage. They say he's a bad fit, isn't a viable 2nd option, etc. |
Very well thought out and well written response. And I'm not just saying that because I think the same thing.... |
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bounty
Star Player
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I have called him a "garbage man". It means he is the guy that cleans up the glass. THATS ALL HE DOES
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baller
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Look the problem is not Odom, the problem is not kobe, its not mihm either, its the fact that the majority of our team is terrible, young, and inexpierenced. But we all knew that going into the season. We all knew its going to be a rebuilding year for the next two years, yes we may make the playoffs, but we are still rebuilding. Let me ask you a question if Odom gave us 20ppg 5rbds and 3 assts would anyone here have a problem with his production? I don't think many would, but 14ppg 9rbds 5assts is better than that, and its perfect for the intiator. Its better than pippen in his first year of the triangle, and he's getting 5 assts with some of the worst players. Look in a couple years Bynum will be a solid contributer, we'll sign another scorer, odom will be intiating and kobe will be in attack mode, and we'll be tearing up the league. Yes trading Odom could improve us now, but honestly beside Lebron you're not going to find many players that play the intiator better than Odom. Odom has been improving throughout the year, he's going to have bad games, its not easy moving to small forward, and learning one of the hardest offenses, with the most complicated postition in it. |
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| baller wrote: | | Look the problem is not Odom |
Insofar as he is a bad fit next to Kobe, yes it is.
| Quote: | | the problem is not kobe, |
Insofar as he's forced to do too much because of the lack of talent, sure, he's another problem.
| Quote: | | its not mihm either, |
So long as he can't stay on the floor because the refs are screwing him, yeah, that's a problem too.
| Quote: | | its the fact that the majority of our team is terrible, |
Yes, they are terrible. That is really the problem.
| Quote: | | young, and inexpierenced. |
That's slightly less problematic than being young and terrible.
| Quote: | | But we all knew that going into the season. |
Yeah, we knew they were terrible. Which is why the majority of people pissed and moaned all summer about Mitch's lack of moves.
| Quote: | | We all knew its going to be a rebuilding year for the next two years, |
We rebuilt after we traded Shaq.
Then we rebuilt this summer adding what, 6 new players?
Then we rebuild again in 2007?
| Quote: | | yes we may make the playoffs, but we are still rebuilding. |
Why rebuild 3 separate times in 4 years?
| Quote: | | Let me ask you a question if Odom gave us 20ppg 5rbds and 3 assts would anyone here have a problem with his production? |
That depends. If it was inconsistent, yes. If it was 25 here, then 6 the next game, then 28, then 9, then 3, then 30...yeah.
If he still didn't play defense, yeah, we'd have a problem.
If he made dumb plays, yeah.
| Quote: | | I don't think many would, but 14ppg 9rbds 5assts is better than that, and its perfect for the intiator. |
Not if said initiator gets 5 turnovers to 5 assists (as Odom had been averaging the last 6 games or so). Not if he doesn't understand the offense (he doesn't). Everything doesn't boil down to stats.
| Quote: | | Its better than pippen in his first year of the triangle, and he's getting 5 assts with some of the worst players. |
No it wasn't better than Pippen. You're going by stats, not what actually happens on the court. You're also neglecting defense. Typical.
| Quote: | | Look in a couple years Bynum will be a solid contributer |
Maybe. Looking good, but its really too early to tell.
| Quote: | | we'll sign another scorer |
Who?
| Quote: | | odom will be intiating |
One-handedly still I presume.
| Quote: | | and kobe will be in attack mode, and we'll be tearing up the league. |
In 2 years Kobe will be as broken down as T-mac if help doesn't arrive soon.
| Quote: | | Yes trading Odom could improve us now, |
And there's something wrong with that?
| Quote: | | but honestly beside Lebron you're not going to find many players that play the intiator better than Odom. |
Actually just about any PG with a brain would be an improvement.
| Quote: | | Odom has been improving throughout the year, |
In fact he hasn't.
| Quote: | | he's going to have bad games, |
Yep, about 40 of them.
| Quote: | | its not easy moving to small forward |
What move? He's played all forward spots his entire career--including some point forward.
| Quote: | | and learning one of the hardest offenses, |
This isn't exactly particle physics we're talking.
| Quote: | | with the most complicated postition in it. |
The usual excuses. What will it be next year? |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I could care less what "know it all" fans think.
What matters is what the Lakers think and how GM's think. I have on good account that the Pacers wanted Odom and that the Kings wanted Odom last deadline.
Is it confirmed? No.
But you guys can label him whatever you want, he is making money, enjoying LA life and you guys can keep sitting there behind your computer screens and PMS about it 24-7  |
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RG73
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Well, I could care less what "know it all" fans think. |
That's funny coming from you.
| Quote: | | What matters is what the Lakers think and how GM's think. |
Well duh. They're making the decisions. But we're not required to agree with them. And since when did they become infalliable?
| Quote: | I have on good account that the Pacers wanted Odom and that the Kings wanted Odom last deadline.
Is it confirmed? No. |
Look, we know that other teams will trade good players for Odom. We also have the suspicion that management has lost their mind and thinks that Odom can net Lebron or KG.
| Quote: | | But you guys can label him whatever you want |
Thanks for confirming our first amendment rights to us.
| Quote: | | he is making money |
Stealing.
That's swell. He ought to be practicing right handed shots and dribbling before he goes enjoying.
| Quote: | | and you guys can keep sitting there behind your computer screens and PMS about it 24-7 |
And you're doing what exactly? |
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RG73
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Whats really funny Wolf is that you used the exact same line of reasoning to defend Rudy last season.
Oh Rudy has 2 rings. Therefore, infalliable.
Oh the Lakers hired Rudy, they know what they're doing.
We saw how that debacle worked out. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well duh. They're making the decisions. But we're not required to agree with them. And since when did they become infalliable |
There's disagreeing and then there's agenda driven hyperbole.
That's what you have RG. You have the same puppet like voice in every thread breaking down any poster that shows loyalty to the Lakers planning.
Fact is, the Lakers have been really good to us fans in terms of championships. If they have a plan, even If i have my inclinations I will allow them the BOD to atleast execute it.
You sit there, all pompus and pissy thinking your rants make a difference. They don't. They're boring, old and lame.
So If you can't accept the plans, atleast admit that the Lakers have won a lot of rings under Buss and give them time to make the neccesary moves. Is it that hard to do that?
| Quote: | | Look, we know that other teams will trade good players for Odom. We also have the suspicion that management has lost their mind and thinks that Odom can net Lebron or KG. |
I don't LO would ever be in a James trade. Noway. I have always thought that was impossible.
KG on the other hand is a little different. His team is 21-25 and in the lottery. 4 games under, and they keep trading for the sake of trading. Considering that KG is close to 30 and has about 3-4 years left in his peak - I don't see any playoff team dealing it's best player for him. And factor in KG will have a say in where he goes.
So while, It's still unlikely that KG gets dealt here - it's a possibility. And If you can come up with a better package than Odom, Mihm or Kwame, last year's and picks - I'm all years. I think the Laker package - recall it's not Odom alone it's a PACKAGE - is going to be interesting because it has the combination of a young versatile forward, bigman, picks and cap relief.
No, that's Grant.
Odom is playing for the Lakers and is putting up a near double-double while running the point. In today's NBA that is worth 10-12 million. Buss isn't a guy that will overpay guy. If he felt Odom was overpaid - he wouldn't have signed on to the Shaq trade and more importantly wouldn't have kept him on this season over a cheaper Caron Butler.
| Quote: | | And you're doing what exactly? |
I'm not PMSing.
I'm certainly not (bleep) and selling the same agenda in almost every thread. If you guys want to talk hoops, talk about it without an agenda.
Every thread virtually is a re-run of Mitch, Odom, Buss etc bashing. It's getting old.
And you're a guy with a good mind. I don't see why you waste time focusing on all this negativity.
Most importantly. Even if you think the Lakers are doomed, allow the courtesy of Laker history to give them an oppurtunity to prove themselves. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | Whats really funny Wolf is that you used the exact same line of reasoning to defend Rudy last season.
Oh Rudy has 2 rings. Therefore, infalliable.
Oh the Lakers hired Rudy, they know what they're doing.
We saw how that debacle worked out. |
Rudy quit the Lakers at over .500 and 6th in the West
Phil Jackson has the Lakers where exactly? You were one of the biggest pro-Phil and anti-Rudy guys.
How's that working out for you?
I told you last season and Phil's showing it this season. The Lakers are a good team with limited talent. Expecting them to be better than 6th-8th in the west is asking for too much out of the coach.
Be it Rudy or Phil or even Larry Brown. No coach will get these guys to be better than 6th-7th in the west in his first year.
Rudy is not as good a coach as Phil. But he's a great motivator that knows how to get his players to play hard. That's the most important thing about being a head coach. Motivating guys that have made in the NBA. |
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Well duh. They're making the decisions. But we're not required to agree with them. And since when did they become infalliable |
There's disagreeing and then there's agenda driven hyperbole. |
Where exactly am I using hyperbole? And what is my agenda? Whatever I say isn't going to influence management or anyone else, so how can I have an agenda?
| Quote: | | That's what you have RG. You have the same puppet like voice in every thread breaking down any poster that shows loyalty to the Lakers planning. |
Puppets talk funny. Maybe I do sound like a puppet. Either way, whether or not I talk like a puppet, I'm fairly certain that I'm more articulate than one.
| Quote: | | Fact is, the Lakers have been really good to us fans in terms of championships. If they have a plan, even If i have my inclinations I will allow them the BOD to atleast execute it. |
Ok, where did I say they haven't been? I've said that all empires grow old and make mistakes and crumble. We could be witnessing that. Fact of life.
| Quote: | | You sit there, all pompus and pissy thinking your rants make a difference. They don't. They're boring, old and lame. |
Same to you. Why bother to respond?
| Quote: | | So If you can't accept the plans, atleast admit that the Lakers have won a lot of rings under Buss |
Well I can't deny actual facts.
| Quote: | | and give them time to make the neccesary moves. Is it that hard to do that? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | Look, we know that other teams will trade good players for Odom. We also have the suspicion that management has lost their mind and thinks that Odom can net Lebron or KG. |
I don't LO would ever be in a James trade. Noway. I have always thought that was impossible.
KG on the other hand is a little different[/quote]
No, he's not.
| Quote: | | His team is 21-25 and in the lottery. 4 games under, |
Which is where we'll be soon.
| Quote: | | and they keep trading for the sake of trading. |
Keep? They made one trade. Didn't make a whole lot of sense.
| Quote: | | Considering that KG is close to 30 and has about 3-4 years left in his peak - I don't see any playoff team dealing it's best player for him. And factor in KG will have a say in where he goes. |
Yep, just like Artest did.
| Quote: | | So while, It's still unlikely that KG gets dealt here - it's a possibility. |
Sure. 0.00001%. Many things are, technically, possible, albeit exceedingly unlikely.
| Quote: | | And If you can come up with a better package than Odom, Mihm or Kwame, last year's and picks - I'm all years. |
For KG? How on Earth is that appealing? They would suck awfully bad with that team for a long, long time.
| Quote: | | I think the Laker package - recall it's not Odom alone it's a PACKAGE - is going to be interesting because it has the combination of a young versatile forward, bigman, picks and cap relief. |
Yeah, it'd be interesting to hear McHale's laugh when he gets that phone call.
No, that's Grant.
Odom is playing for the Lakers and is putting up a near double-double while running the point. In today's NBA that is worth 10-12 million. [/quote]
Ummm, if you say so chief.
| Quote: | | Buss isn't a guy that will overpay guy. |
Then why is he overpaying Odom and Kwame and still paying for Brian Grant?
| Quote: | | If he felt Odom was overpaid - he wouldn't have signed on to the Shaq trade and more importantly wouldn't have kept him on this season over a cheaper Caron Butler. |
Again, we don't know what the thinking was there. Looks like a lot of overpaying going on to me. But I'm not a megamillionaire.
| Quote: | | And you're doing what exactly? |
I'm not PMSing.[/quote]
Dude, you're so PMSing.
| Quote: | | I'm certainly not (bleep) and selling the same agenda in almost every thread. |
Yeah, in fact you are. Do you want me to point out the threads and posts in question? That will get tedious. You know you are.
| Quote: | | If you guys want to talk hoops, talk about it without an agenda. |
That goes for you too.
| Quote: | | Every thread virtually is a re-run of Mitch, Odom, Buss etc bashing. It's getting old. |
Or Mitch or Odom or Buss ball stroking.
| Quote: | | And you're a guy with a good mind. I don't see why you waste time focusing on all this negativity. |
Constructive criticism.
| Quote: | | Most importantly. Even if you think the Lakers are doomed, allow the courtesy of Laker history to give them an oppurtunity to prove themselves. |
Yeah, they had that opportunity when they decided to move Shaq and rebuild around Kobe. Sorry if I think it is insane to rebuild 3 times in 4 years without making any attempt to build around your star player until he's 29-30 years old. What a crazy agenda I have.[/list] |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Same old fluff, RG.
Bring something real. You said no Restricted Free Agent Jumped ship - I gave you T-Mac.
Only West can build - I gave you the 80's and Buss picking Magic when West wanted someone else (that would only cost what 5 rings)
Shaq came here. Malone and Payton came here. It's the 2nd or 3rd biggest market in the NBA. Yet all of that doesn't matter. The fact that the Lakers have the biggest lengend and the most notorious coach in the NBA - won't hurt either. Not to mention - they are offering the MAX.
On KG - You laugh at it, yet have no answer for who will actually offer a better package.
But whatever, RG. Keep it up. We'll see what you have to say in a few years. |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well you can blame the entire managemnt I suppose (more specifically Buss) for hiring Phil.
But beyond that it is nothing other than Phil's doing to play Odom in the way that he does. It is also Phil's approach in the confines of the Triangle to play the type of players he prefers at the PG position, as well.
It is simply Phil's game and his Triangle offense that we have inherited by signing Phil on. So bottom line while Buss made the decision to hire Phil, it all comes down to Phil's style and approach to the game that impacts the way we use our players as well as the type of players on the roster, imo. |
No... it's blaming the entire management staff for letting the roster talent get to the way it has been. It's Mitch and Dr. Buss lacking the foresight around Phil Jackson, or the lack of cohesion between all 3 giving input to the talent of the roster.
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RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Same old fluff, RG. |
You should talk.
| Quote: | | Bring something real. |
As usual, you might want to consider heeding your own advice.
| Quote: | | You said no Restricted Free Agent Jumped ship - I gave you T-Mac. |
Where did I say no restricted free agent jumped ship? I said none jumped ship for less money. T-mac was moved via S&T. Not less money. Use facts much?
| Quote: | | Only West can build |
Where did I say this?
I said West was an example of a GM who could build while simultaneously keeping options open for the big fish. I contrasted this to the current management who put any moves on hold for the big fish.
| Quote: | | I gave you the 80's and Buss picking Magic when West wanted someone else (that would only cost what 5 rings) |
When exactly was this a point of debate? And Mitch wanted May and Jimmy wanted Bynum. Ok. That doesn't mean the rest of their personnel moves are not option to question. And what principle of logic allows for the fact that something that happened once means it will happen again? I don't see the connection between Buss wanting Magic and the 2007 plan other than Buss is the owner. Your argument is basically that Buss is flawless in his judgement.
Under a different CBA. They were able to outbid Orlando. That can't happen anymore.
| Quote: | | Malone and Payton came here. |
That was an unusual circumstance and you know it. Both had made $$ and had plenty of career accomplishments. They were both financially comfortable enough and had accomplished all they could individually that they could sacrifice a year for a ring. That doesn't happen very often.
| Quote: | | It's the 2nd or 3rd biggest market in the NBA. Yet all of that doesn't matter. |
No, it doesn't matter at all. How many times previous to Malone/Payton had the Lakers been turned down by prospective free agents who went for more money? Money matters, not market size.
| Quote: | | The fact that the Lakers have the biggest lengend and the most notorious coach in the NBA - won't hurt either. |
*yawn* You think that matters to today's players? You're watching guys like Parker who ought to be thanking their lucky stars for this opportunity become complacent and lazy.
| Quote: | | Not to mention - they are offering the MAX. |
Uh huh. And teams can offer a larger MAX to retain their own free agent. Again, how many times have players turned down a larger contract for a smaller one?
| Quote: | | On KG - You laugh at it, yet have no answer for who will actually offer a better package. |
I thought Sky had already done a reasonable job at this, so I didn't know I needed to reinvent the wheel for your benefit. But ok, I'll take a stab.
Hmmm, without checking salaries, off the top of my head Bulls could offer some combination of Chandler/Gordon/Deng and picks.
Indy could offer JO. Nets could offer Jefferson and Kristic and picks. Philly could offer Webber and Iggy. Cleveland could offer Gooden, Z and Hughes. Bullets can offer a package around Jamison, Butler and Haywood. Atlanta (if we're talking before the deadline this season) can offer Harrington, any combination of their young guys and whatever picks they didn't send to Phoenix. Speaking of Phoenix, they can offer Marion, Diaw, and those Atlanta #1s. Continuing West....Portland can offer up Randolph and Miles and a high #1. Golden State...lets see, some combination of Diogu, Murphy, Dunleavy, Pietrus, Bierdrins. As long as they have KG, Baron and Jefferson they're in business. Hell, they could throw in Jefferson, move Pietrus to the #2, and still be fine. Seattle, oh, Shard and Ridnour and picks. The Clippers, oh, Magette, Wilcox, Mobley and Rebraca lets say. Denver can offer their usual package of Nene/Watson, plus throw in KMart and scraps. Dallas can throw in Terry, Howard, Daniels, and KVE as cap relief.
So that isn't exhaustive, or cap realistic, but, off the top of my head, those are semi-reasonable possibilities, all certainly in the ball park if not better than Odom/Kwame/Mihm. You can criticize any of those to your hearts content, but I think its fair to say other teams have assets equivalent to ours (which makes sense since you'd be hard pressed finding a team with less overall talent than the Lakers presently have).
| Quote: | | But whatever, RG. Keep it up. |
Again, thanks for giving me permission to exercize my rights. You work for the Bush Administration or something? I wasn't exactly aware I needed you permission for everything.
| Quote: | | We'll see what you have to say in a few years. |
I suppose we will. Hopefully it will be something like "thank God Buss saw the light and moved Odom deadline of 06."  |
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | Well you can blame the entire managemnt I suppose (more specifically Buss) for hiring Phil.
But beyond that it is nothing other than Phil's doing to play Odom in the way that he does. It is also Phil's approach in the confines of the Triangle to play the type of players he prefers at the PG position, as well.
It is simply Phil's game and his Triangle offense that we have inherited by signing Phil on. So bottom line while Buss made the decision to hire Phil, it all comes down to Phil's style and approach to the game that impacts the way we use our players as well as the type of players on the roster, imo. |
No... it's blaming the entire management staff for letting the roster talent get to the way it has been. It's Mitch and Dr. Buss lacking the foresight around Phil Jackson, or the lack of cohesion between all 3 giving input to the talent of the roster. |
But to get depth - you also need to have money to spend.
The Lakers haven't EVER used a Full MLE. This has been the case for 5-6 years now.
So if they were willing to fill up the cap and spend money without concern of what the rammafactions are finanacially - you could see a roster full of the Shaq trade return (Odom, Butler, 2 picks) and 3-4 Full MLE players.
Now while that team would be better than the Lakers are now - the question is HOW much better?
Would they beating the Spurs in the PO's? Detroit in the Finals?
My answer is NO. I greatly respect your basketball input, so I'm laying out a challenge for you.
Give me a roster that's going to win rings using the Full MLE every year for the last 2 summers along with what other players than (Bynum, Vujacic) you would have drafted. |
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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To get depth, you don't need $. Every team is guaranteed 2 draft picks unless they're traded away or penalized. Basically blowing it for 5 years for picks that aren't starter quality has hurt the team tremendously.
It's not like Dr. Buss doesn't have money.
My challenge for you is, give me a roster that's going to win rings after Phil Jackson, using capspace, and fill in the rest of the pieces with with merry minimums.
It's not even about beating the Spurs or Pistons. It is about improving every year and forgetting about any plans that hinder that philosophy.
After all, those rosters were mostly built on the draft, trades, and MLEs. Even when the Spurs had loads of caproom, they kept the players they drafted.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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didn't the Lakers use the Full MLE for Divac?
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Where did I say no restricted free agent jumped ship? I said none jumped ship for less money. T-mac was moved via S&T. Not less money. Use facts much? |
And if a RFA is absoultely sold on leaving a team can do the same now.
Plus, like i said a million times - the year by year basis isn't that different. Take into account the extra revenue the player should be recieving in making playing in LA.
| Quote: | | Under a different CBA. They were able to outbid Orlando. That can't happen anymore |
Actually Shaq would have made more as a Magic with the offer they had given considering the Tax laws in Florida. He also said that he was told by the Magic that they would match or better any offer he got from the other end.
So basically he left on his own will. He felt that LA was the place for him. He wrote this in his book.
Go ahead and make it all about the dollars, but the dollars aren't as significant a differential. Lakers will offer the max. The players own team will offer the max with an additional season. The Lakers can counter with the prospect of winning a championship, coached by Phil, being a freanchise figure of a team with a great legacy and most importantly - additional revenue through endorsements.
| Quote: | | *yawn* You think that matters to today's players? You're watching guys like Parker who ought to be thanking their lucky stars for this opportunity become complacent and lazy. |
A player has two options. One option has him getting the max at 6 years on a team that's not going to win a championship in a poor market. The other has him getting the max at 5 years with an oppurtunity to win a championship in a huge market (meaning more marketing dollars)
| Quote: | | Uh huh. And teams can offer a larger MAX to retain their own free agent. Again, how many times have players turned down a larger contract for a smaller one? |
How many times have the Lakers been the team offering the max?
You say it's impossible - I say when have the Lakers tried? They are the elite brand name in a great city. The Lakers offering the max is different from the Utah Jazz offering the max.
| Quote: | Hmmm, without checking salaries, off the top of my head Bulls could offer some combination of Chandler/Gordon/Deng and picks.
Indy could offer JO. Nets could offer Jefferson and Kristic and picks. Philly could offer Webber and Iggy. Cleveland could offer Gooden, Z and Hughes. Bullets can offer a package around Jamison, Butler and Haywood. Atlanta (if we're talking before the deadline this season) can offer Harrington, any combination of their young guys and whatever picks they didn't send to Phoenix. Speaking of Phoenix, they can offer Marion, Diaw, and those Atlanta #1s. Continuing West....Portland can offer up Randolph and Miles and a high #1. Golden State...lets see, some combination of Diogu, Murphy, Dunleavy, Pietrus, Bierdrins. As long as they have KG, Baron and Jefferson they're in business. Hell, they could throw in Jefferson, move Pietrus to the #2, and still be fine. Seattle, oh, Shard and Ridnour and picks. The Clippers, oh, Magette, Wilcox, Mobley and Rebraca lets say. Denver can offer their usual package of Nene/Watson, plus throw in KMart and scraps. Dallas can throw in Terry, Howard, Daniels, and KVE as cap relief |
You are ignoring that KG will have a say in which city he goes. You are ignoring that most of those teams even with KG aren't contenders after the trade. So it's stupid for them to trade so many young players for a 30 year old player in decline.
Forgot how even Portland didn't want to trade for Shaq - in a deal that would have sent Randolph and Miles here?
If KG leaves - he will have a huge say in where he goes. There in noway he's going from one low playoff contender to another low playoff contender.
| Quote: | | I suppose we will. Hopefully it will be something like "thank God Buss saw the light and moved Odom deadline of 06." |
Odom might get dealt before the 2007 summer. But the 2007 plan is a huge part of the Shaq trade.
Barring another superstar coming to town in a trade, the capspace plan will continue. Odom trade or not. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | To get depth, you don't need $. Every team is guaranteed 2 draft picks unless they're traded away or penalized. Basically blowing it for 5 years for picks that aren't starter quality has hurt the team tremendously.
It's not like Dr. Buss doesn't have money.
My challenge for you is, give me a roster that's going to win rings after Phil Jackson, using capspace, and fill in the rest of the pieces with with merry minimums. |
Well, for starters it's not going to just merry minimums.
From what I know, the Lakers will have Bynum, Turiaf and Parker either signed or owning their rights.
So they can sign a max FA and then keeep those players too along with Bryant and maybe Odom. Then they use the minimums.
I won't say the Lakers will win a ring after they sign that Max FA, but once they do - they will be in a situation that puts them much much closer to rings than they are now.
Is it more important to have 4-5 marginal MLE players or one IMPACT player?
I take the impact player. The impact player will put us into elite talent category. After that, depth can be added easily. But you need that foundation first and foremost before you worry about depth.
If you look at teams like Phx - Nash, Amare and Marion. They have that core.
Having Bryant, Odom (or whoever you want traded for LO) and MLE players to fill out the roster won't put the Lakers in elite category, talent wise.
Having Bryant, Max FA/All-Star, Odom (Or whoever you want to trade for LO) would do that IMO.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wolfpaclaker
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Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | didn't the Lakers use the Full MLE for Divac? |
What I meant was the full 5 (previously 6 in the old CBA) MLE
They have never used the complete MLE. Most solid proven players like Earl Watson, Antonio McDyess and Juwon Howard require the full 5 year MLE. |
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baller
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 588
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| baller wrote: | | Look the problem is not Odom |
| RG73 wrote: | | Insofar as he is a bad fit next to Kobe, yes it is. |
He's not a bad fit, because the game is not played with only two players. Its a team game, right now we only have two players that are good. Odom is allowing kobe to do what he does best and that is attack. When we have another consistant scorer, odom will be invaluable.
| baller wrote: | | the problem is not kobe, |
| RG73 wrote: | | Insofar as he's forced to do too much because of the lack of talent, sure, he's another problem. |
He's not the main problem, people can always improve but he's playing mvp ball right now.
| baller wrote: | | its not mihm either, |
| RG73 wrote: | | So long as he can't stay on the floor because the refs are screwing him, yeah, that's a problem too. |
True he gets messed up by the refs.
| baller wrote: | | its the fact that the majority of our team is terrible, |
Yes, they are terrible. That is really the problem.
| baller wrote: | | young, and inexpierenced. |
| RG73 wrote: | | That's slightly less problematic than being young and terrible. |
Well it is a problem right now, because alot of their problems are closing out games, and making mental errors that veterans don't usually make. With veterans we would have won alot more of those 6 point games.
| baller wrote: | | But we all knew that going into the season. |
| RG73 wrote: | | Yeah, we knew they were terrible. Which is why the majority of people pissed and moaned all summer about Mitch's lack of moves. |
What did you want us to do sign antonio daniels, we couldn't make any moves. We took a risk on Kwame, the majority of people loved that risk and it hasn't panned out so far.
| baller wrote: | | We all knew its going to be a rebuilding year for the next two years, |
| RG73 wrote: | We rebuilt after we traded Shaq.
Then we rebuilt this summer adding what, 6 new players?
Then we rebuild again in 2007? |
I didn't realize Lamar, caron, and a hurt brian grant equaled Shaq. When the trade was made it was prefaced with they didn't want to take 8-10 years to rebuild they wanted to take 3 or 4 years to rebuld. And those 6 players we added are all world. We all know that the 2007 plan provides us with flexiblity. We can't just make moves because we're the lakers and we're supposed to be good it doesn't work that way.
| baller wrote: | | yes we may make the playoffs, but we are still rebuilding. |
| RG73 wrote: | | Why rebuild 3 separate times in 4 years? |
Rebuilding is not just a one year time frame, alot of teams are rebuilding and have been for years. This organizations plan was to add karl and gary to shaq and kobe win one, didn't work, so they decided to do a short term rebuild of around 3 years. We only care about championships not putting together a team that'll get swept in the playoffs, that has not way to get to that contender level because we have no future cap flexiblity
| baller wrote: | | Let me ask you a question if Odom gave us 20ppg 5rbds and 3 assts would anyone here have a problem with his production? |
| RG73 wrote: | That depends. If it was inconsistent, yes. If it was 25 here, then 6 the next game, then 28, then 9, then 3, then 30...yeah.
If he still didn't play defense, yeah, we'd have a problem.
If he made dumb plays, yeah. |
The question is talking about scoring because that is everyones biggest knock on odom, they want 5 more points. But his assists make up for that, people only see the numbers.
| baller wrote: | | I don't think many would, but 14ppg 9rbds 5assts is better than that, and its perfect for the intiator. |
| RG73 wrote: | | Not if said initiator gets 5 turnovers to 5 assists (as Odom had been averaging the last 6 games or so). Not if he doesn't understand the offense (he doesn't). Everything doesn't boil down to stats. |
I agree it doesn't, thats why I watch the game, and he is getting a better grasp of the offense, yes he had a couple bad games, but he's also had some great games. The defense's that they are running at us have changed so he has to change again, its not that easy, kobe whose been one of the best intiators in the triangle will tell you that it is extremely hard. You have to know how the defense is going to play players on your team, but we don't have anyone else to go to except kobe. Try intiating when they know where you have to go. We need some players
| baller wrote: | | Its better than pippen in his first year of the triangle, and he's getting 5 assts with some of the worst players. |
| RG73 wrote: | | No it wasn't better than Pippen. You're going by stats, not what actually happens on the court. You're also neglecting defense. Typical. |
Oh I didn't realize the triangle was a defense. Thanks for helping me understand that. I didn't anywhere say that he was better on the defensive end, he is intiating better with worse players on the offensive end.
| baller wrote: | | Look in a couple years Bynum will be a solid contributer |
Maybe. Looking good, but its really too early to tell.
| baller wrote: | | we'll sign another scorer |
Whoever they want we're gonna be under the cap for a max contract, maybe two players if that fits us best
| baller wrote: | | odom will be intiating |
One-handedly still I presume.
| baller wrote: | | and kobe will be in attack mode, and we'll be tearing up the league. |
| RG73 wrote: | | In 2 years Kobe will be as broken down as T-mac if help doesn'tarrive soon. |
What training or medical expertise do you have to know that for a fact? Kobe works constantly on injury prevention excercises so I believe he'll be fine, but you know what injuries do happen, but you can't bank your future on assuming someone will get injured by that logic, we better trade kobe now cause he might get injured.
| baller wrote: | | Yes trading Odom could improve us now, |
| RG73 wrote: | | And there's something wrong with that? |
Tell me a trade that will improve us without destroying our future cap space, that the other team will actually do.
| baller wrote: | | but honestly beside Lebron you're not going to find many players that play the intiator better than Odom. |
| RG73 wrote: | | Actually just about any PG with a brain would be an improvement. |
So you want to trade Odom for a pg, I'm glad your not our gm. Because there's no one else that can do it on this team.
| baller wrote: | | Odom has been improving throughout the year, |
| RG73 wrote: | | In fact he hasn't. |
Actually he has, he struggled in the begging of the season, and then he adjusted to the defense, then they played us differently and he adjusted again. Thats why this offense is so hard to grasp, it changes based on the other teams defense, it takes two years, you can't expect instant greatness.
| baller wrote: | | he's going to have bad games, |
| RG73 wrote: | | Yep, about 40 of them. |
Thats just incorrect.
| baller wrote: | | its not easy moving to small forward |
| RG73 wrote: | | What move? He's played all forward spots his entire career--including some point forward. |
Have you ever played basketball, its not easy to just change positions, especially going from a post position to the perimeter. Last year he put on weight and played power forward, now he moved to the permiter and is the primary ballhandler. I think that qualifies as a move.
| baller wrote: | | and learning one of the hardest offenses, |
| RG73 wrote: | | This isn't exactly particle physics we're talking. |
Oh really, you mind explaining it to me since its so easy?
| baller wrote: | | with the most complicated postition in it. |
| RG73 wrote: | | The usual excuses. What will it be next year? |
It'll be you saying I was wrong we just needed to give them time. |
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