OKC seems to dump some of their best talent just because of Westbrook or cap savings
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: OKC seems to dump some of their best talent just because of Westbrook or cap savings

I've found it a bit weird how OKC seems to justify dumping some really really good draft picks just based on 1) not being able to max them out 2) due in large part to having Westbrook.

They could have right now Ibaka, Durant, Harden, Westbrook and Reggie Jackson all on the same damn team. Yes I know too many cooks in the kitchen, but get a great coach and he'll likely figure it out. Harden was willing to stay a 6th man and you could have had an incredibly talented, gifted team. That talent is on par with GST and could beat them, IMO with the right coaching staff.

Presti does many great things, but if I'm Durant I look at what they do with the sidekick star talent. Durant's getting the short end of the stick and I hope he realizes this sooner or later (and not to say that just because I'd like him to become a Laker, I think he should leave period).

He's going to go ringless in OKC ala KG in 'Sota, IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject:

OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject:

kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.

I don't know, seems to me that Westbrook as great a player as he is, seems to hinder them from investing in guards like Harden and Jackson. I'm not expert, but I don't see any reason to sell your draft picks when they're on their way up, unless you're getting a star player back. I guess it's also the culture. Westbrook monopolizes the ball so much and is such a high usage player, that they didn't feel they had room for another. I understand that, but still think when young draft picks are improving and showing promise you don't sell them on the way up. Not unless you get a star in his prime. Kanter's a good scoring big man, but a star he ain't. Presti has his way of doing things, but IMO it's held them back. A few years ago they were the most talented team in the league. Now they're still talented - not nearly as much as a few years ago. Losing Harden and trading guys like Reggie Jackson IMO has hurt them more than helped - because they've gotten no star player back. You trade guys of that level, you should be getting a major league player back. Kanter was the best player they got Reggie and Kevin Martin was the best player they got for James. From a win now perspective around Durant/Westbrook, that's awfully mediocre return IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject:

RJax said so in WOJ's podcast that there was no way he would stay in OKC as a backup player. And for him, it was clearly the right move PT wise and $$$ wise.

Harden, well that's inexplicable.

However, what's most puzzling for me is their reticence to use the full MLE to get a 2 way shooting guard, their biggest weakness.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:57 am    Post subject:

There were good reasons for the Harden trade that continue to be good reasons.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
There were good reasons for the Harden trade that continue to be good reasons.

I am aware of some of them, but I must say Larry, if Presti had to do that one again, there's no way he does it. He may never admit that to anyone, but deep down, he has to be feeling some remorse. If Durant walks or takes the rumored 1 year deal to become a free agent with Westbrook in 2017, I'd be worried if I'm Presti. They're very close to losing possibly BOTH their star players and having traded away 2 other stars who (as RFA) would have had to stay, it puts them right back to where they began many years ago.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:51 am    Post subject:

Didn't they have to give up Harden because they gave that ridiculous contract to Kendrick Perkins?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
Didn't they have to give up Harden because they gave that ridiculous contract to Kendrick Perkins?

They had already extended him when he got traded there from Boston in 2011. Within a week he was extended.

It was Ibaka they were trying to re-sign to an extension and Harden at the same time in 2012, and chose to trade Harden, ink Ibaka to an extension.

Seems with Reggie Jackson as well, they had a guy who was on the verge of breaking out, but they moved him to Detroit. As a RFA, it would have been hard for Jackson to leave the Thunder. Him taking the qualifying offer over a max 5 year deal? No way. Even if he wants a bigger role. Wouldn't pass up that money, IMO.

They have IMO traded away some all-star guards and not gotten back equal value. With Westbrook a FA in 2017, Durant this summer, I question if they won't look back and regret their decisions big time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: OKC seems to dump some of their best talent just because of Westbrook or cap savings

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I've found it a bit weird how OKC seems to justify dumping some really really good draft picks just based on 1) not being able to max them out 2) due in large part to having Westbrook.

They could have right now Ibaka, Durant, Harden, Westbrook and Reggie Jackson all on the same damn team. Yes I know too many cooks in the kitchen, but get a great coach and he'll likely figure it out. Harden was willing to stay a 6th man and you could have had an incredibly talented, gifted team. That talent is on par with GST and could beat them, IMO with the right coaching staff.

Presti does many great things, but if I'm Durant I look at what they do with the sidekick star talent. Durant's getting the short end of the stick and I hope he realizes this sooner or later (and not to say that just because I'd like him to become a Laker, I think he should leave period).

He's going to go ringless in OKC ala KG in 'Sota, IMO.


With Harden, they're virtually bursting at the seams with talent. Glad it didn't happen. What impresses me is their eye for talent when drafting.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject:

kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.


They also weren't going to pay that money to a backup.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject:

Fwiw, while he is getting a lot of touches and points, reggie ain't exactly as elite as a quick glance at the numbers would have you believe.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
Didn't they have to give up Harden because they gave that ridiculous contract to Kendrick Perkins?


They didn't have to, they chose to.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.


They also weren't going to pay that money to a backup.


the thing i think the players understand is that in OKC their salary cap is dedicated to max RW and KD with Ibaka the third 'slot'. They did match on Kanter b/c Portland forced their hand and OKC figures to be able to peddle him if necessary in an inflating cap. Harden wasn't getting his market value there, to a lesser degree neither was Jackson. The agents know their is a cap on what ownership will do.

I do think all of this figures into what KD and RW will decide to do.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject:

numero-ocho wrote:
Didn't they have to give up Harden because they gave that ridiculous contract to Kendrick Perkins?


They could have kept both but were too cheap. Don't forget that they also traded Jeff Green for Perkins, so effectively lost both Harden and Green for Kwame Brown 2.0.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Green
Ibaka

Sixth man: Reggie Jackson

That team wins at least one ring.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject:

The strange thing in all this is that they just signed Kantner 70M. While he's a fantastic offensive center, the guy's defense is horrific. His touches are going to be anemic (I know I had him on fantasy and dumped him) when Durant is healthy.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
The strange thing in all this is that they just signed Kantner 70M. While he's a fantastic offensive center, the guy's defense is horrific. His touches are going to be anemic (I know I had him on fantasy and dumped him) when Durant is healthy.


They needed low post scoring. I don't fault them for that. They knew perfectly well about Kanters allergies to defense, that's why Collison and Adams are there as well as Ibaka for weakside help.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:47 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
There were good reasons for the Harden trade that continue to be good reasons.


Is this the same Larry Coon of CBA fame?

If so, hello from Irvine!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:22 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
There were good reasons for the Harden trade that continue to be good reasons.


Is this the same Larry Coon of CBA fame?

If so, hello from Irvine!


Yep. We have some heavy hitters up in here!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:39 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.

I don't know, seems to me that Westbrook as great a player as he is, seems to hinder them from investing in guards like Harden and Jackson. I'm not expert, but I don't see any reason to sell your draft picks when they're on their way up, unless you're getting a star player back. I guess it's also the culture. Westbrook monopolizes the ball so much and is such a high usage player, that they didn't feel they had room for another. I understand that, but still think when young draft picks are improving and showing promise you don't sell them on the way up. Not unless you get a star in his prime. Kanter's a good scoring big man, but a star he ain't. Presti has his way of doing things, but IMO it's held them back. A few years ago they were the most talented team in the league. Now they're still talented - not nearly as much as a few years ago. Losing Harden and trading guys like Reggie Jackson IMO has hurt them more than helped - because they've gotten no star player back. You trade guys of that level, you should be getting a major league player back. Kanter was the best player they got Reggie and Kevin Martin was the best player they got for James. From a win now perspective around Durant/Westbrook, that's awfully mediocre return IMO.



They can't pay all those guys man. They were lucky those guys establish themselves at an early age on rookie contracts, that's how they had the
BEST ROSTER in the league. But they had to decide on who's going to get paid. Reggie Jackson wanted to be a starter. He's okay, but do you need him if you're OKC hogging up the cap? No. James Harden was actually given a nice contract, he decided to bolt for just a little more. He's the face of the Rockets, shoe deals, commercials. I don't think he regrets it.

They reminded me a lot of when we had Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick and Kobe. CBA was a bit different, but it was somewhat of a parallel in that Eddie and Nick established themselves as stars during their rookie deals. Kobe got voted into all-star game in his 2nd year. Lakers knew that it was Shaq and Kobe, that's it. A lot was said about Nick's attitude, but at the end of the day, it was still about the bottom line when both Eddie and Nick were moved for contracts like Glen Rice that would end earlier. I believe Eddie got a max deal from Miami in a sign and trade from Charlotte. Nick got paid in Denver. Lakers were not going to, or couldn't if they even wanted to pay 4 max guys. Well Nick didn't get max from Denver, but it was close.

So as we sit here and salivate at the prospects of Julius, Russell, Clarkson and possibly Simmons. If they all become studs, guess what? We'll be in the same boat and not all of them will remain Lakers. Especially if they're going to sign max free agents to long term deals. Not all those youngsters will stay, they will be dealt when pay day comes, or they will be dealt for the max guy we want to sign.


Last edited by Runway8 on Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:51 am    Post subject:

Harden was given an extension after he ended up in Houston. From what I recall Presti/OKC wanted to give him something in the 60-65 M range and he wound up getting the max at 85 M. There were question marks on whether Harden was deserving of a max back then - or more relevant to them if they were actually better off with Harden at that price or not.

Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:52 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Harden was given an extension after he ended up in Houston. From what I recall Presti/OKC wanted to give him something in the 60 M range and he wound up getting the max at 85 M. There were question marks on whether Harden was deserving of a max back then.

I just think he's setting himself up for a major disaster if Durant or Westbrook walk within a year or two.


Lets hope that disaster is this summer. Hehe.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:56 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Harden was given an extension after he ended up in Houston. From what I recall Presti/OKC wanted to give him something in the 60 M range and he wound up getting the max at 85 M. There were question marks on whether Harden was deserving of a max back then.

I just think he's setting himself up for a major disaster if Durant or Westbrook walk within a year or two.


Lets hope that disaster is this summer. Hehe.

Yeah - and if you're KD you have to be thinking about this. You have to see the history there, that they've let guys go to save money. 1 of them wound up being a superstar/MVP caliber guy, and the other is about to become an all-star in the East.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject:

i wish larry would expand on what he said. but then he'd probably have to ban himself.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.

I don't know, seems to me that Westbrook as great a player as he is, seems to hinder them from investing in guards like Harden and Jackson. I'm not expert, but I don't see any reason to sell your draft picks when they're on their way up, unless you're getting a star player back. I guess it's also the culture. Westbrook monopolizes the ball so much and is such a high usage player, that they didn't feel they had room for another. I understand that, but still think when young draft picks are improving and showing promise you don't sell them on the way up. Not unless you get a star in his prime. Kanter's a good scoring big man, but a star he ain't. Presti has his way of doing things, but IMO it's held them back. A few years ago they were the most talented team in the league. Now they're still talented - not nearly as much as a few years ago. Losing Harden and trading guys like Reggie Jackson IMO has hurt them more than helped - because they've gotten no star player back. You trade guys of that level, you should be getting a major league player back. Kanter was the best player they got Reggie and Kevin Martin was the best player they got for James. From a win now perspective around Durant/Westbrook, that's awfully mediocre return IMO.



They can't pay all those guys man. They were lucky those guys establish themselves at an early age on rookie contracts, that's how they had the
BEST ROSTER in the league. But they had to decide on who's going to get paid. Reggie Jackson wanted to be a starter. He's okay, but do you need him if you're OKC hogging up the cap? No. James Harden was actually given a nice contract, he decided to bolt for just a little more. He's the face of the Rockets, shoe deals, commercials. I don't think he regrets it.

They reminded me a lot of when we had Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick and Kobe. CBA was a bit different, but it was somewhat of a parallel in that Eddie and Nick established themselves as stars during their rookie deals. Kobe got voted into all-star game in his 2nd year. Lakers knew that it was Shaq and Kobe, that's it. A lot was said about Nick's attitude, but at the end of the day, it was still about the bottom line when both Eddie and Nick were moved for contracts like Glen Rice that would end earlier. I believe Eddie got a max deal from Miami in a sign and trade from Charlotte. Nick got paid in Denver. Lakers were not going to, or couldn't if they even wanted to pay 4 max guys. Well Nick didn't get max from Denver, but it was close.

So as we sit here and salivate at the prospects of Julius, Russell, Clarkson and possibly Simmons. If they all become studs, guess what? We'll be in the same boat and not all of them will remain Lakers. Especially if they're going to sign max free agents to long term deals. Not all those youngsters will stay, they will be dealt when pay day comes, or they will be dealt for the max guy we want to sign.

this is some real talk. this is some of the truest things i've read here lately.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
OKC didn't trade Reggie Jackson because of the salary cap. Reggie Jackson's ego got in the way. He had to be dealt.

I don't know, seems to me that Westbrook as great a player as he is, seems to hinder them from investing in guards like Harden and Jackson. I'm not expert, but I don't see any reason to sell your draft picks when they're on their way up, unless you're getting a star player back. I guess it's also the culture. Westbrook monopolizes the ball so much and is such a high usage player, that they didn't feel they had room for another. I understand that, but still think when young draft picks are improving and showing promise you don't sell them on the way up. Not unless you get a star in his prime. Kanter's a good scoring big man, but a star he ain't. Presti has his way of doing things, but IMO it's held them back. A few years ago they were the most talented team in the league. Now they're still talented - not nearly as much as a few years ago. Losing Harden and trading guys like Reggie Jackson IMO has hurt them more than helped - because they've gotten no star player back. You trade guys of that level, you should be getting a major league player back. Kanter was the best player they got Reggie and Kevin Martin was the best player they got for James. From a win now perspective around Durant/Westbrook, that's awfully mediocre return IMO.



They can't pay all those guys man. They were lucky those guys establish themselves at an early age on rookie contracts, that's how they had the
BEST ROSTER in the league. But they had to decide on who's going to get paid. Reggie Jackson wanted to be a starter. He's okay, but do you need him if you're OKC hogging up the cap? No. James Harden was actually given a nice contract, he decided to bolt for just a little more. He's the face of the Rockets, shoe deals, commercials. I don't think he regrets it.

They reminded me a lot of when we had Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick and Kobe. CBA was a bit different, but it was somewhat of a parallel in that Eddie and Nick established themselves as stars during their rookie deals. Kobe got voted into all-star game in his 2nd year. Lakers knew that it was Shaq and Kobe, that's it. A lot was said about Nick's attitude, but at the end of the day, it was still about the bottom line when both Eddie and Nick were moved for contracts like Glen Rice that would end earlier. I believe Eddie got a max deal from Miami in a sign and trade from Charlotte. Nick got paid in Denver. Lakers were not going to, or couldn't if they even wanted to pay 4 max guys. Well Nick didn't get max from Denver, but it was close.

So as we sit here and salivate at the prospects of Julius, Russell, Clarkson and possibly Simmons. If they all become studs, guess what? We'll be in the same boat and not all of them will remain Lakers. Especially if they're going to sign max free agents to long term deals. Not all those youngsters will stay, they will be dealt when pay day comes, or they will be dealt for the max guy we want to sign.

this is some real talk. this is some of the truest things i've read here lately.


But OKC could have paid them all what they wanted. They would just have to pay luxury tax. But under the rules they could have retained that team.
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