Is Steph Curry on the same level as Kobe (in his prime)?
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MJST
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:12 am    Post subject:

Horry basically said that Curry is more dangerous because he can get more points cause he shot more threes that Kobe and was more efficient at them.


Let anyone try to use that argument. Kobe still has the 3 point record despite not being a 3 point shooter. That should tell you something about the kind of scorer he was.

Is Curry a better 'shooter' sure. Better all around scorer? No.

There's been no more complete scorer in the game offensively than Kobe Bryant. He could kill you inside, and he could kill you outside, he could post you up(which Curry cannot do) and he can get you from any and all angles from any part of the court. Despite not being a three point shooter he broke the 3 point shooting record in a game, and despite a scorer like Carmelo in the Garden nights on end, Kobe set that record and Carmelo only broke it recently.

Kobe also, one of the few times he wasn't double teamed on nearly every possession, dropped 81 points against zone. I don't think Curry will ever do that.

He is a better shooter than Kobe, and will go down as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. But he won't match Kobe in terms of longevity or danger.

If Curry is able to maintain this over the next 5-6 seasons then he will definitely be in the discussion and potentially in a league all his own. But we'll likely see a drop off between this season and next season.

It's very easy to get hyped up in a single season of longevity. But don't forget, for two seasons, T-Mac was considered on par with Kobe as a scorer, but he wasn't able to keep it up, blame injuries or what have you. But one of Kobe's biggest strengths is his longevity. And at the end of the day history books won't say "Curry for one season was considered potentially a greater scorer than Kobe Bryant."

If Curry keeps this up for another 3-5 seasons he'll definitely be in the discussion. But one "out of this world" year, isn't going to be all it takes. We've seen it before, we'll see it again. In many ways, Shaq's run in Los Angeles is a prime example of it. Had Shaq been able to maintain what he did those first 2 championship years he'd go down as the greatest player to ever play the game. But that's not what happened. Even still, his EXTREME dominance for that small span is remembered, but Kobe is known as the greater of the two now. Because we sat through that for nearly a decade and from one generation to the next.

IF we come back to this thread in 2020, and Curry is still doing all this, then for sure. But chances are, we won't, and it will just be known as an amazing 2-3 season run offensively. He likely won't do it for nearly a decade well into his mid 30s like Kobe was able to. But that's why Kobe is special. The fact Curry will potentially even have a 3 or so year run at it means he's a hell of a player in his own right and one of the greatest shooters the game has ever seen.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:27 am    Post subject:

As expected the usual suspects completely duck the challenges because they're full of (bleep). Curry generators GS offense and not the other way around. GS is almost 20 points per 100 worse when Steph isn't on the court.

20 points worse.

No one can do what Steph does
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:29 am    Post subject:

The Warriors look like a completely different team when Curry Isn't playing. It's more then just advanced stats of why he's better. The kids in this era are all shooting a ridiculous amount of 3 pt shots. He's changed the game the way Jordan did in the 90's. Many of you won't agree but I honestly believe that this Warriors team would beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in a 7 game series. That's how great I think this guy is.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:54 am    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
As expected the usual suspects completely duck the challenges because they're full of (bleep). Curry generators GS offense and not the other way around. GS is almost 20 points per 100 worse when Steph isn't on the court.

20 points worse.

No one can do what Steph does


It's easier to blather on with baseless claims regarding systems than it is to have substantive conversations that reflect both observation and statistical data. I highly doubt any of these usual suspects actually watch the Warriors play much beyond highlights when they aren't playing the Lakers or have looked up the meaningful stats.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:00 am    Post subject:

Dave20 wrote:
The Warriors look like a completely different team when Curry Isn't playing. It's more then just advanced stats of why he's better. The kids in this era are all shooting a ridiculous amount of 3 pt shots. He's changed the game the way Jordan did in the 90's. Many of you won't agree but I honestly believe that this Warriors team would beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in a 7 game series. That's how great I think this guy is.


It would be a great match up but I don't know if I could go that far just yet. Shaq was such a force it's possible he could force them not to play their small ball lineup with Draymond at the 5 as much as they would like. Of course, the math says that 3 > 2, so we would have our hands full with their shooting as well. It would certainly be a great chess match.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject:

Robert Horry on who's better offensively? Kobe or Steph?

https://twitter.com/diamond83/status/695475817254645760
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject:

Dave20 wrote:
The Warriors look like a completely different team when Curry Isn't playing. It's more then just advanced stats of why he's better. The kids in this era are all shooting a ridiculous amount of 3 pt shots. He's changed the game the way Jordan did in the 90's. Many of you won't agree but I honestly believe that this Warriors team would beat the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in a 7 game series. That's how great I think this guy is.


Sorry but i'd disagree. I'd take the 2000/2001 Lakers even if the warriors break the regular season record. With shaq, warriors have to play big. And the Lakers had Horry who could limit some of dray's abilities. Fox wasnt a shabby defender as well so i'd think he'd do okay on Klay.

With the lakers you have 2 superstars and top 10 players ever vs a potential top 10 player. Plus the Lakers had a system in place and a great coach with very good role players with defensive abilities.

Heck..You put Durant and Westbrook, who are a tier below Kobe/shaq, in a system with great coach and role players and they'd give the warriors fits this year. Right now they are playing great but do not have the role players who can defend or score on a consistent basis.

The spurs really have no chance this year because they lack any true superstars. Duncan/parker/manu are all past their prime and their one KL is a star, not exactly a superstar.

To beat the Warriors you need Tier 1 type players and the Lakers had 2 of them in their prime.

2001 Kobe/shaq > curry/thompson/dray all day any day.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
As expected the usual suspects completely duck the challenges because they're full of (bleep). Curry generators GS offense and not the other way around. GS is almost 20 points per 100 worse when Steph isn't on the court.

20 points worse.

No one can do what Steph does


If we're strictly speaking offense, Kobe did in 05-06. And in fact, he didn't suffer from any sort of roster collinearity. According to bball ref:

Kobe's ORTG +/- in 05-06: +19 (#1)
Lamar's ORTG +/- in 05-06: +5 (#2)

In contrast:

Steph's ORTG +/- in 15-16: +16 (#1)
Draymond's ORTG +/- in 15-16: +15 (#2)
Klay's ORTG +/- in 15-16: +13 (#3)

Only three players with a +/- > 2 on the team.

As far as net rating goes, Steph & Dray are actually at +30 and +28 respectively. Ridiculous (though I suspect the defensive impact isn't really due to Steph) but we're talking about Curry's offensive impact. I don't really have a horse in this race (as if it makes sense comparing Curry this year to my recollection of Kobe from 10 years ago). But if you're gonna use a stat like on/off numbers, at least do it right.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Curry as a rookie vs prime Melo. Curry was so quick and ball handling was great.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject:

Curry right now is on a similar offensive high as Kobe was, but Kobe could just do more because of his size. It's unlikely that Curry is going to go on the scoring runs that Kobe did, he just doesn't have as much weapons. And in terms of maintaining this for a longer period of time... Curry's prime is also going to be shorter. I want to see Curry at 34 do what Kobe did at 34. Not going to happen.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject:

hell no
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:25 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Horry basically said that Curry is more dangerous because he can get more points cause he shot more threes that Kobe and was more efficient at them.


Let anyone try to use that argument. Kobe still has the 3 point record despite not being a 3 point shooter. That should tell you something about the kind of scorer he was.

Is Curry a better 'shooter' sure. Better all around scorer? No.

There's been no more complete scorer in the game offensively than Kobe Bryant. He could kill you inside, and he could kill you outside, he could post you up(which Curry cannot do) and he can get you from any and all angles from any part of the court. Despite not being a three point shooter he broke the 3 point shooting record in a game, and despite a scorer like Carmelo in the Garden nights on end, Kobe set that record and Carmelo only broke it recently.

Kobe also, one of the few times he wasn't double teamed on nearly every possession, dropped 81 points against zone. I don't think Curry will ever do that.

He is a better shooter than Kobe, and will go down as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. But he won't match Kobe in terms of longevity or danger.

If Curry is able to maintain this over the next 5-6 seasons then he will definitely be in the discussion and potentially in a league all his own. But we'll likely see a drop off between this season and next season.

It's very easy to get hyped up in a single season of longevity. But don't forget, for two seasons, T-Mac was considered on par with Kobe as a scorer, but he wasn't able to keep it up, blame injuries or what have you. But one of Kobe's biggest strengths is his longevity. And at the end of the day history books won't say "Curry for one season was considered potentially a greater scorer than Kobe Bryant."

If Curry keeps this up for another 3-5 seasons he'll definitely be in the discussion. But one "out of this world" year, isn't going to be all it takes. We've seen it before, we'll see it again. In many ways, Shaq's run in Los Angeles is a prime example of it. Had Shaq been able to maintain what he did those first 2 championship years he'd go down as the greatest player to ever play the game. But that's not what happened. Even still, his EXTREME dominance for that small span is remembered, but Kobe is known as the greater of the two now. Because we sat through that for nearly a decade and from one generation to the next.

IF we come back to this thread in 2020, and Curry is still doing all this, then for sure. But chances are, we won't, and it will just be known as an amazing 2-3 season run offensively. He likely won't do it for nearly a decade well into his mid 30s like Kobe was able to. But that's why Kobe is special. The fact Curry will potentially even have a 3 or so year run at it means he's a hell of a player in his own right and one of the greatest shooters the game has ever seen.



Truth - there has never been a better all around offensive player than Kobe


And then factor in his 9 times all first team defense and it's a landslide
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject:

Tox, not sure how long you've been following the discussion here but I wasn't using net rating to make the point that no one can do what Steph does. That was a separate point centered around his shooting abilities. There's no one in the game that has his accuracy from very, very deep and virtually no one who can match his ability off the dribble.

The offensive +/- numbers were more to suggest he drives the engine and not the other way around. It seems to be popular to claim he's a product of the system when in actuality the system wouldn't function without him.

Two separate trains of discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
Tox, not sure how long you've been following the discussion here but I wasn't using net rating to make the point that no one can do what Steph does. That was a separate point centered around his shooting abilities. There's no one in the game that has his accuracy from very, very deep and virtually no one who can match his ability off the dribble.

The offensive +/- numbers were more to suggest he drives the engine and not the other way around. It seems to be popular to claim he's a product of the system when in actuality the system wouldn't function without him.

Two separate trains of discussion.



How so? Klay has nearly equally good numbers, at +13. We saw how Curry & Dray relatively struggled without Klay providing elite spacing. We saw how Dray dominated in games without Curry (what was that statline? 29-14-10-5-5 or something?) but with Klay. He's at +14. And Curry is of course Curry, no further explanation needed. He's at +15.

I'm having a hard time understanding how +/- suggests Curry is the driver of the offensive system, when two other players have similar impacts based on that stat. Don't get me wrong; I don't disagree at all with your conclusion. But I do think the argument is poor.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:52 am    Post subject:

Steve Kerr's system is amazing. Look at how it enabled Steph Curry to make a contested midrange jumper over Kevin Durant's outstretched arm.

https://streamable.com/by1r
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:27 pm    Post subject:

There is way too much energy being used to discredit Kobe... It's pretty funny to be honest.

Curry is a great offensive player who plays his role on a stacked and perfectly assembled team almost flawlessly.

I don't buy into garbage like PER, EFF, OTG. That crap isn't present in the streets when the game is birthed. That garbage was created to give jobs to people who cannot hoop but love basketball.

Curry plays a big role for the Warriors. I still have not seen him do anything besides scoring to win a game. I've never seen him utterly destroy his opponent defensively or control the boards. Never seen his play through a double team and still score all those points. Yes, he gets doubled off most screens, but that's only to keep him from getting into the middle of the floor. One he is hedged, the extra defender will rotate back to where he came from before the ball is whipped to Klay or Draymond.

I don't actively want to discredit Curry, but his team is really great. He has a long way to go before he can be compared to Kobe just from an offensive perspective. I don't think it's even possible he'll get there...

There is a lot to be said for the roles that Kobe and other great players were FORCED to play in order for their team to win games. Curry doesn't even orchestrate the offense. There is a lot of help for him on and off the ball. The floor spacing is so spectacular man...

Switch Chris Paul and Curry right now... You'll see the real Curry...


Get at me when Curry gets on this level...




Listening to you guys hype up Curry against Kobe in his prime reminds me of suckas that run their mouths until it's time to get on that hoop court and work out... Prime Kobe will destroy Curry just like this... This ain't no game man... Kobe will hurt that little boy...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
There is way too much energy being used to discredit Kobe... It's pretty funny to be honest.

Curry is a great offensive player who plays his role on a stacked and perfectly assembled team almost flawlessly.

I don't buy into garbage like PER, EFF, OTG. That crap isn't present in the streets when the game is birthed. That garbage was created to give jobs to people who cannot hoop but love basketball.

Curry plays a big role for the Warriors. I still have not seen him do anything besides scoring to win a game. I've never seen him utterly destroy his opponent defensively or control the boards. Never seen his play through a double team and still score all those points. Yes, he gets doubled off most screens, but that's only to keep him from getting into the middle of the floor. One he is hedged, the extra defender will rotate back to where he came from before the ball is whipped to Klay or Draymond.

I don't actively want to discredit Curry, but his team is really great. He has a long way to go before he can be compared to Kobe just from an offensive perspective. I don't think it's even possible he'll get there...

There is a lot to be said for the roles that Kobe and other great players were FORCED to play in order for their team to win games. Curry doesn't even orchestrate the offense. There is a lot of help for him on and off the ball. The floor spacing is so spectacular man...

Switch Chris Paul and Curry right now... You'll see the real Curry...


Get at me when Curry gets on this level...




Listening to you guys hype up Curry against Kobe in his prime reminds me of suckas that run their mouths until it's time to get on that hoop court and work out... Prime Kobe will destroy Curry just like this... This ain't no game man... Kobe will hurt that little boy...



preseason odds had Cle 2 to 1 to win the title this year; GS was 5 to 1 to win the title.

Doesn't sound like they were viewed as a "stacked and perfectly assembled team."

Guess they became one over the course of this season even though it's the exact same roster as last season.

Question, would you favor GS over any of Kobe's 5 championship teams?

Or, would you take Curry's supporting cast this year over any of Kobe's supporting cast from his 5 title teams?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject:

Not topic related, but Curry introducing the Panthers gave me the chills.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject:

Dave20 wrote:
Curry as a rookie vs prime Melo. Curry was so quick and ball handling was great.



I see so much of DLo in that clip. Goes to show much of a negative impact BS and his archaic system is. Wonder how curry would do in his rookie year under Byron.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:03 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
There is way too much energy being used to discredit Kobe... It's pretty funny to be honest.

Curry is a great offensive player who plays his role on a stacked and perfectly assembled team almost flawlessly.

I don't buy into garbage like PER, EFF, OTG. That crap isn't present in the streets when the game is birthed. That garbage was created to give jobs to people who cannot hoop but love basketball.

Curry plays a big role for the Warriors. I still have not seen him do anything besides scoring to win a game. I've never seen him utterly destroy his opponent defensively or control the boards. Never seen his play through a double team and still score all those points. Yes, he gets doubled off most screens, but that's only to keep him from getting into the middle of the floor. One he is hedged, the extra defender will rotate back to where he came from before the ball is whipped to Klay or Draymond.

I don't actively want to discredit Curry, but his team is really great. He has a long way to go before he can be compared to Kobe just from an offensive perspective. I don't think it's even possible he'll get there...

There is a lot to be said for the roles that Kobe and other great players were FORCED to play in order for their team to win games. Curry doesn't even orchestrate the offense. There is a lot of help for him on and off the ball. The floor spacing is so spectacular man...

Switch Chris Paul and Curry right now... You'll see the real Curry...


Get at me when Curry gets on this level...




Listening to you guys hype up Curry against Kobe in his prime reminds me of suckas that run their mouths until it's time to get on that hoop court and work out... Prime Kobe will destroy Curry just like this... This ain't no game man... Kobe will hurt that little boy...



preseason odds had Cle 2 to 1 to win the title this year; GS was 5 to 1 to win the title.

Doesn't sound like they were viewed as a "stacked and perfectly assembled team."

Guess they became one over the course of this season even though it's the exact same roster as last season.

Question, would you favor GS over any of Kobe's 5 championship teams?

Or, would you take Curry's supporting cast this year over any of Kobe's supporting cast from his 5 title teams?

your response to darth's post doesn't really make sense. Darth was showing, using an exaggerated example, of how much easier it is for a stronger, bigger guy like kobe to destroy a smaller guy. Which is very very true in basketball. The argument only really breaks down once you start getting into sizes that are so big, mobility starts being affected...like a muresan, yao type situation.
the point is that curry can't, won't, never will be able to do the things kobe can do because of size. it is NOT an attack on Curry. everything in your post above doesn't address any of this. your post has to do with hype...like if the hype was low on the warriors initially, why did it change later? or something like that. well, when a team is on a record setting pace, then the hype will turn to their favor. it doesn't prove curry is the best player in history.
maybe they are the perfectly assembled team...their record supports that idea. if they weren't before the season started, that doesn't mean curry turned them into a perfect team because he is so godly good. it just means people were wrong; the hype was incorrect; people made mistakes in their predictions (surprised?).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject:

I might be alone on this judging by all the posters on here having nothing but praise for them, but me personally I'm sick and tired of these scumbags curry and the Warriors. I want them to lose more than any lebrons team more than harden and Dwight coward.

I haven't openly rooted against a team this loud since the Celtics formed their big 3. I don't like them and I'll eat crow once again if they win, but a true die hard laker fan will never cheer for a team within the same division.

ever since our last championship season it seems like they were on a trajectory going up and we were going down sort of like they stole our thunder like the monstars in space jam. Not to mention they have a lot of laker influence from Jerry west being the gm's consultant to Luke Walton being the assistant coach and mychael thompsons son klay. But I still can't cheer for them I just can not.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:42 pm    Post subject:

crazylakerfan001 wrote:
I might be alone on this judging by all the posters on here having nothing but praise for them, but me personally I'm sick and tired of these scumbags curry and the Warriors. I want them to lose more than any lebrons team more than harden and Dwight coward.

I haven't openly rooted against a team this loud since the Celtics formed their big 3. I don't like them and I'll eat crow once again if they win, but a true die hard laker fan will never cheer for a team within the same division.

ever since our last championship season it seems like they were on a trajectory going up and we were going down sort of like they stole our thunder like the monstars in space jam. Not to mention they have a lot of laker influence from Jerry west being the gm's consultant to Luke Walton being the assistant coach and mychael thompsons son klay. But I still can't cheer for them I just can not.


They also have the heavy 2000- Kings bandwagon fans aboard theirs now. Henceforth all the Laker venom spewed by their 'fanbase' and chest pounding they're doing now.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject:

I can't believe how quickly we forget. It's amazing. It really is. I love Curry, he's an unreal talent. Great shooter, underrated passer and seems to understand the flow of the game perfectly. He's always looking for momentum baskets and daggers. With all that said, cmon maaaan. This isn't close. Curry is a great player in a great system(remember Steve Nash) but to say he's on Kobe's level is a discredit to both players. Kobe his whole career has been compared to the best player year in and out. That tells you something. I think Curry is amazing and I refuse to step in him to elevate Kobe but he's not on Kobe's level yet. Gimme 4-5 more years like this.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:46 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
your response to darth's post doesn't really make sense. Darth was showing, using an exaggerated example, of how much easier it is for a stronger, bigger guy like kobe to destroy a smaller guy. Which is very very true in basketball. The argument only really breaks down once you start getting into sizes that are so big, mobility starts being affected...like a muresan, yao type situation.
the point is that curry can't, won't, never will be able to do the things kobe can do because of size. it is NOT an attack on Curry. everything in your post above doesn't address any of this. your post has to do with hype...like if the hype was low on the warriors initially, why did it change later? or something like that. well, when a team is on a record setting pace, then the hype will turn to their favor. it doesn't prove curry is the best player in history.
maybe they are the perfectly assembled team...their record supports that idea. if they weren't before the season started, that doesn't mean curry turned them into a perfect team because he is so godly good. it just means people were wrong; the hype was incorrect; people made mistakes in their predictions (surprised?).


If anything, this post just validates what Curry is doing. You're saying size gives you an advantage, so, doesn't this make what Curry is doing all the more incredible? He isn't able to use his size to his advantage and has to score in spite of it, not with it as an advantage.

The problem I have with your size argument, is that you can make that argument no matter what Curry was putting up. Let's just say Curry was doing what he was doing but scoring 50 points per game on over 50% from downtown and the field, while still getting 6 rebounds and 10 assists per game. You could still make your same size argument.

Why does Curry have to do it the way Kobe is doing it? If he can put up 50/6/10 every night, playing the same way he is playing now, he'd still be small.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
your response to darth's post doesn't really make sense. Darth was showing, using an exaggerated example, of how much easier it is for a stronger, bigger guy like kobe to destroy a smaller guy. Which is very very true in basketball. The argument only really breaks down once you start getting into sizes that are so big, mobility starts being affected...like a muresan, yao type situation.
the point is that curry can't, won't, never will be able to do the things kobe can do because of size. it is NOT an attack on Curry. everything in your post above doesn't address any of this. your post has to do with hype...like if the hype was low on the warriors initially, why did it change later? or something like that. well, when a team is on a record setting pace, then the hype will turn to their favor. it doesn't prove curry is the best player in history.
maybe they are the perfectly assembled team...their record supports that idea. if they weren't before the season started, that doesn't mean curry turned them into a perfect team because he is so godly good. it just means people were wrong; the hype was incorrect; people made mistakes in their predictions (surprised?).


If anything, this post just validates what Curry is doing. You're saying size gives you an advantage, so, doesn't this make what Curry is doing all the more incredible? He isn't able to use his size to his advantage and has to score in spite of it, not with it as an advantage.

The problem I have with your size argument, is that you can make that argument no matter what Curry was putting up. Let's just say Curry was doing what he was doing but scoring 50 points per game on over 50% from downtown and the field, while still getting 6 rebounds and 10 assists per game. You could still make your same size argument.

Why does Curry have to do it the way Kobe is doing it? If he can put up 50/6/10 every night, playing the same way he is playing now, he'd still be small.


Because he prefers Kobe. So whatever Curry or anyone else does is automatically inferior.
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