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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
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 Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | "I think honestly we have two of the top 10 players in the league -- Draymond Green is the second one," West said. "He's the most underrated player in the NBA, period. There are very few players, I think, anyone in our organization would trade for him. He's just a remarkable player. Watch him handle the ball, watch him make passes, defensively he's everywhere. If he's not a top 10 player in this league, I don't know who is."
Some of you downplaying Green and underrating him as just a system player and the third best player on the W's should listen to the Logo and reconsider how good he is. |
He's the top 10 player in the league that you can't build around necessarily. He goes flat out against the norm about being a playmaker without having definitive go-to scoring abilities. It still makes him a jack of all trades.
In fact, the way Logo describes him... handle the ball, make passes, defensively.. exactly the things that Pippen has done in the past (but at least led his team once), Lamar Odom before him... etc. |
Why can't you build around him. He provides multiple things you need to be a championship team and great scorers are everywhere. There is only one Draymond Green. Being able to playmake without go to moves is a positive not negative. It shows he does it without stopping the ball. |
Traditional school of thought when it comes to franchise players is, the franchise player can score. Teams never really built around a DPOY without a flood of All-Star/HOFers beside them.
Bill Russell comes to mind.
But, if I were to build a team, who would I want to build around? Paul George? Or Draymond Green? LeBron? KD? Westbrook? CP3? Griffin?
Being a playmaker without go-to moves IS a positive, and not a negative, but that is not my sole criteria for what a franchise player is.
It's also a quality of #2, #3, or #4 options on offense, but not the #1 guy to build around usually.
It's not that I don't recognize what Draymond does for a team. His transformation at Michigan St. is an outstanding tribute to who he is as a person and a player, but that doesn't mean I could place him as a #1 guy on my team.
If Draymond was a Laker, I'd question if they get into the playoffs this year. Clarkson, Randle, Russell just aren't developed enough within their own skill set and IQ to maximize their own abilities. It's a big reason why the Lakers struggle when opponents put out a moderate effort of defense, most indicated against the Bulls and even against the Clippers last night.
If any other typical franchise player was a Laker added onto the roster, I'd be highly confident about at least making a bottom seed.
Draymond has the talent and system that supports his talent the best.
Typical franchise players can put up big numbers, almost regardless of talent and system.
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | "I think honestly we have two of the top 10 players in the league -- Draymond Green is the second one," West said. "He's the most underrated player in the NBA, period. There are very few players, I think, anyone in our organization would trade for him. He's just a remarkable player. Watch him handle the ball, watch him make passes, defensively he's everywhere. If he's not a top 10 player in this league, I don't know who is."
Some of you downplaying Green and underrating him as just a system player and the third best player on the W's should listen to the Logo and reconsider how good he is. |
He's the top 10 player in the league that you can't build around necessarily. He goes flat out against the norm about being a playmaker without having definitive go-to scoring abilities. It still makes him a jack of all trades.
In fact, the way Logo describes him... handle the ball, make passes, defensively.. exactly the things that Pippen has done in the past (but at least led his team once), Lamar Odom before him... etc. |
Why can't you build around him. He provides multiple things you need to be a championship team and great scorers are everywhere. There is only one Draymond Green. Being able to playmake without go to moves is a positive not negative. It shows he does it without stopping the ball. |
Traditional school of thought when it comes to franchise players is, the franchise player can score. Teams never really built around a DPOY without a flood of All-Star/HOFers beside them.
Bill Russell comes to mind.
But, if I were to build a team, who would I want to build around? Paul George? Or Draymond Green? LeBron? KD? Westbrook? CP3? Griffin?
Being a playmaker without go-to moves IS a positive, and not a negative, but that is not my sole criteria for what a franchise player is.
It's also a quality of #2, #3, or #4 options on offense, but not the #1 guy to build around usually.
It's not that I don't recognize what Draymond does for a team. His transformation at Michigan St. is an outstanding tribute to who he is as a person and a player, but that doesn't mean I could place him as a #1 guy on my team.
If Draymond was a Laker, I'd question if they get into the playoffs this year. Clarkson, Randle, Russell just aren't developed enough within their own skill set and IQ to maximize their own abilities. It's a big reason why the Lakers struggle when opponents put out a moderate effort of defense, most indicated against the Bulls and even against the Clippers last night.
If any other typical franchise player was a Laker added onto the roster, I'd be highly confident about at least making a bottom seed.
Draymond has the talent and system that supports his talent the best.
Typical franchise players can put up big numbers, almost regardless of talent and system. |
I think there are a lot of players who can put up huge numbers and carry a team to the playoffs and Draymond can't. Many of those guys can't carry a team to a championship as a #1 though and aren't as valuable when not the primary scorer as Draymond. Harden and Melo are those types of guys. I'm not sure if either of them are more of a franchise player than Draymond IMO. |
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Dave20
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't. He wouldn't be the same player without Curry and Klay. Great for their system but not a franchise player. |
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thehotsung8701A
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Joined: 19 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I don't know to laugh or cry when I see poster on here saying they would trade Ben Simmon for Draymond Green....
Draymond Green is not a franchise player while Simmon has the possibility to be our Lebron.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I think there are a lot of players who can put up huge numbers and carry a team to the playoffs and Draymond can't. Many of those guys can't carry a team to a championship as a #1 though and aren't as valuable when not the primary scorer as Draymond. Harden and Melo are those types of guys. I'm not sure if either of them are more of a franchise player than Draymond IMO. |
I definitely agree that there are guys that put up huge numbers and can't carry a team.
I definitely agree they are guys like Melo and Rudy Gay.
But, as much as I hate the guy, it isn't Harden. Harden lacks leadership skills, but has every ounce of talent to be a franchise player. I wouldn't call Rudy a franchise player. I wouldn't call Carmelo a franchise player anymore.
But, you can't deny that even Melo had a competitive team in the West Coast before facing the Lakers. That was back when he cared about scoring and some level of facilitation.
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Depends on the draft. Not in this one if you can get Simmons or Ingram. Simmons' floor is a more athletic and bigger Draymond Green. |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins?
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
I think there are a lot of players who can put up huge numbers and carry a team to the playoffs and Draymond can't. Many of those guys can't carry a team to a championship as a #1 though and aren't as valuable when not the primary scorer as Draymond. Harden and Melo are those types of guys. I'm not sure if either of them are more of a franchise player than Draymond IMO. |
I definitely agree that there are guys that put up huge numbers and can't carry a team.
I definitely agree they are guys like Melo and Rudy Gay.
But, as much as I hate the guy, it isn't Harden. Harden lacks leadership skills, but has every ounce of talent to be a franchise player. I wouldn't call Rudy a franchise player. I wouldn't call Carmelo a franchise player anymore.
But, you can't deny that even Melo had a competitive team in the West Coast before facing the Lakers. That was back when he cared about scoring and some level of facilitation. |
Very true about Melo. Harden plays no D, relies on refs(the calls go away in the playoffs which is why he can't lead a team IMO), and as you said has no leadership skills. Put Draymond on that team with Harden and I think he would be the most important player because of all the dirty work he does despite Harden still being the leading scorer and focal point of the offense. It's a weird hypothetical but I think there are a lot of players who would be the #1 on offense but still be less valuable than Draymond which is why I consider him a franchise player despite lacking elite offensive 1 on 1 skills. Being a franchise player is not predicated on offensive talent IMO. It's about what you do to get your team wins and few players in the NBA do as much for their team as Draymond and his team is the best in the league.
We could debate for hours if Draymond makes steph and Klay better or vice versa. We could argue that the system makes Draymond the player he is or that he makes the system run as well as it does. None of us know but the person who would know is Jerry West, the greatest GM of all time/architect of the Warriors dynasty, and his opinion of Draymond was made clear in the quote above. I think he is one of the top ten best in the league and west agrees. If top ten in the league isn't a franchise player than there are very very few in the history of the league.
Also, to the guy who said he didn't know whether to laugh or cry, go look at past top draft picks. There are NO sure things and as great as Simmons is, he isn't either. He will be a huge success if he ends up equal to Draymond. Maybe he ends up better but I think the chances of that are pretty small. This is coming from a guy who thinks he is a must take #1 pick. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Depends on the draft. Not in this one if you can get Simmons or Ingram. Simmons' floor is a more athletic and bigger Draymond Green. |
Nobody's floor is that high. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins? |
No he needs a #1 scorer next to him just like most #1 scorers need a guy like him. He's the best of all the guys who fill the role he does. Again, #1 scorers can help a bad team more than him but he can help average to good teams be great more so than a lot of #1 scorers. Obviously Durant, Kobe, Curry, Lebron and guys that good would do more than him for any team but they are 4 of the best of all time. |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins? |
No he needs a #1 scorer next to him just like most #1 scorers need a guy like him. He's the best of all the guys who fill the role he does. Again, #1 scorers can help a bad team more than him but he can help average to good teams be great more so than a lot of #1 scorers. Obviously Durant, Kobe, Curry, Lebron and guys that good would do more than him for any team but they are 4 of the best of all time. |
Kinda proves my point. Curry (& Klay) may Green look GREAT.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins? |
No he needs a #1 scorer next to him just like most #1 scorers need a guy like him. He's the best of all the guys who fill the role he does. Again, #1 scorers can help a bad team more than him but he can help average to good teams be great more so than a lot of #1 scorers. Obviously Durant, Kobe, Curry, Lebron and guys that good would do more than him for any team but they are 4 of the best of all time. |
Kinda proves my point. Curry (& Klay) may Green look GREAT. |
By that logic you would've said Shaq made Kobe who he was because Shaq was so good. Oversimplifying proves nothing. Curry's greatness doesn't take away from Draymond's, they add to each others greatness but that's a compliment to both not a knock on either. |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins? |
No he needs a #1 scorer next to him just like most #1 scorers need a guy like him. He's the best of all the guys who fill the role he does. Again, #1 scorers can help a bad team more than him but he can help average to good teams be great more so than a lot of #1 scorers. Obviously Durant, Kobe, Curry, Lebron and guys that good would do more than him for any team but they are 4 of the best of all time. |
Kinda proves my point. Curry (& Klay) may Green look GREAT. |
By that logic you would've said Shaq made Kobe who he was because Shaq was so good. Oversimplifying proves nothing. Curry's greatness doesn't take away from Draymond's, they add to each others greatness but that's a compliment to both not a knock on either. |
Shaq & Kobe are all time greats.... YES people still say Shaq made Kobe great for a while until Kobe won his own rings.
Draymond & Steph ... yeah Steph is on the trajectory of all time great.
You say the same for Draymond?
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | MIZ83 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | Draymond Green is good ... he's just GREAT because of the system. |
IMO Draymond is a huge reason why the system works so great and not the other way around. It's not easy to make the reads and passes that they do while still playing at an extremely fast pace. You have to get the right players to do it. |
Yes, to duplicate GS's success, all you have to do is go find the most prolific 3 point scorer of all time, pair him with the 2nd most prolific 3 point scorer in the league, then find a non-guard who can hit 3's, also, and drop dimes at a rate that only a handful of non-guards have ever done. Oh, and make sure that every starter is a solid to great defender. The system is great, and it allows the players' strengths to shine, but you are right, the players also are making the system look better than it is. |
So easy, lets go sign those guys in FA ... oh wait can't find them. Gotta wait for another Steph Curry.
Like I said, Draymond Green is a good player. Well rounded, he'll be good on any other team.
Put him on the Warriors and he becomes GREAT.
Or put it this way, if Draymond Green came to the Lakers would he improve our team by 20-30 wins? |
No he needs a #1 scorer next to him just like most #1 scorers need a guy like him. He's the best of all the guys who fill the role he does. Again, #1 scorers can help a bad team more than him but he can help average to good teams be great more so than a lot of #1 scorers. Obviously Durant, Kobe, Curry, Lebron and guys that good would do more than him for any team but they are 4 of the best of all time. |
Kinda proves my point. Curry (& Klay) may Green look GREAT. |
By that logic you would've said Shaq made Kobe who he was because Shaq was so good. Oversimplifying proves nothing. Curry's greatness doesn't take away from Draymond's, they add to each others greatness but that's a compliment to both not a knock on either. |
Shaq & Kobe are all time greats.... YES people still say Shaq made Kobe great for a while until Kobe won his own rings.
Draymond & Steph ... yeah Steph is on the trajectory of all time great.
You say the same for Draymond? |
It's unlikely but I don't think you have to be an all-time great to be a franchise player. If you consider Harden, Melo, Wall, etc. franchise players than you don't either because they are not all-time greats. Draymond would be great on his own. He would be even more unappreciated because he wouldn't score that much more and would still be a dirty work guy but he would be great nonetheless. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are NO sure things and as great as Simmons is, he isn't either. He will be a huge success if he ends up equal to Draymond. Maybe he ends up better but I think the chances of that are pretty small. This is coming from a guy who thinks he is a must take #1 pick. |
Can't help but find some irony in that statement. Outside of 3pt%, Simmons is better across the board with initial statistics. You would think that since the team is built around him, that LSU would be a better team. Technically, it is Simmons that is supposed to be the Super Odom or Super Draymond, and yet, you don't even think he's that good, despite putting up big numbers.
Why do you think Draymond fell so far in his draft? The one thing that got him some recognition, something that West puts some value in, is a form of character test.
Guys like Jimmy Butler excelled on a similar test. I think, it's also why West drafted Ezeli so high... just flat out intelligence.
| Quote: | | I don't think you have to be an all-time great to be a franchise player. If you consider Harden, Melo, Wall, etc. |
Agreed.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The Shawn Marion comparison is a great one. At the Suns peak, Marion was getting listed in the top 10 of the league, at least the top 15. He was a perennial all-star. Not a guy that ever won anything as the man, or looked as good once he wasn't a Sun. I think we'll see the same with Green. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Being a franchise player is not predicated on offensive talent IMO. It's about what you do to get your team wins and few players in the NBA |
That sums things up. But going by that statement, there are few franchise players, period. A stretch, but it is like saying Robert Horry and Derek Fisher franchise talent.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | The Shawn Marion comparison is a great one. At the Suns peak, Marion was getting listed in the top 10 of the league, at least the top 15. He was a perennial all-star. Not a guy that ever won anything as the man, or looked as good once he wasn't a Sun. I think we'll see the same with Green. |
Not by any reliable sources. Comparing Green to Marion is beyond unfair. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Being a franchise player is not predicated on offensive talent IMO. It's about what you do to get your team wins and few players in the NBA |
That sums things up. But going by that statement, there are few franchise players, period. A stretch, but it is like saying Robert Horry and Derek Fisher franchise talent. |
I love those guys because they hit big shots but if you think they do even half as much as Draymond does you don't understand what he does for that team. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | There are NO sure things and as great as Simmons is, he isn't either. He will be a huge success if he ends up equal to Draymond. Maybe he ends up better but I think the chances of that are pretty small. This is coming from a guy who thinks he is a must take #1 pick. |
Can't help but find some irony in that statement. Outside of 3pt%, Simmons is better across the board with initial statistics. You would think that since the team is built around him, that LSU would be a better team. Technically, it is Simmons that is supposed to be the Super Odom or Super Draymond, and yet, you don't even think he's that good, despite putting up big numbers.
Why do you think Draymond fell so far in his draft? The one thing that got him some recognition, something that West puts some value in, is a form of character test.
Guys like Jimmy Butler excelled on a similar test. I think, it's also why West drafted Ezeli so high... just flat out intelligence.
| Quote: | | I don't think you have to be an all-time great to be a franchise player. If you consider Harden, Melo, Wall, etc. |
Agreed. |
Draymond was an undersized four year guy who had off the chart intangible skills. Hard guy to judge going to the next level. I underestimated him as well but since he has gotten to the pros he has proven what he can do.
Simmons COULD be better than Draymond. I love him as a prospect and think he is the #1 pick but I don't think he is a sure thing top ten player in the NBA and I think Draymond is there now. It's that simple. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm shocked that when Jerry West says that a guy is a top ten talent and a franchise player that people try and argue with it. He was an all-time great player, the greatest GM of all time, and the architect of 2 of the 3 best dynasty's since the Jordan Bulls(Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the Warriors will get there). Let's all swallow a little bit of pride and accept that that guy might understand the game and who you can build a team around better than us. He would laugh in a GM's face if they offered him the #1 overall pick for Draymond Green. |
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Cutheon
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 12161
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | I'm shocked that when Jerry West says that a guy is a top ten talent and a franchise player that people try and argue with it. He was an all-time great player, the greatest GM of all time, and the architect of 2 of the 3 best dynasty's since the Jordan Bulls(Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the Warriors will get there). Let's all swallow a little bit of pride and accept that that guy might understand the game and who you can build a team around better than us. He would laugh in a GM's face if they offered him the #1 overall pick for Draymond Green. |
In large part because he is trying to win now.
IMO, when I say I would make the trade, it's not solely because I think Green is a great talent, but because I think a core of Green/DLO/Randle/Clarkson is immediately more compelling to FA than a core of Pick/OurGuys |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | There are NO sure things and as great as Simmons is, he isn't either. He will be a huge success if he ends up equal to Draymond. Maybe he ends up better but I think the chances of that are pretty small. This is coming from a guy who thinks he is a must take #1 pick. |
Can't help but find some irony in that statement. Outside of 3pt%, Simmons is better across the board with initial statistics. You would think that since the team is built around him, that LSU would be a better team. Technically, it is Simmons that is supposed to be the Super Odom or Super Draymond, and yet, you don't even think he's that good, despite putting up big numbers.
Why do you think Draymond fell so far in his draft? The one thing that got him some recognition, something that West puts some value in, is a form of character test.
Guys like Jimmy Butler excelled on a similar test. I think, it's also why West drafted Ezeli so high... just flat out intelligence.
| Quote: | | I don't think you have to be an all-time great to be a franchise player. If you consider Harden, Melo, Wall, etc. |
Agreed. |
Draymond was an undersized four year guy who had off the chart intangible skills. Hard guy to judge going to the next level. I underestimated him as well but since he has gotten to the pros he has proven what he can do.
Simmons COULD be better than Draymond. I love him as a prospect and think he is the #1 pick but I don't think he is a sure thing top ten player in the NBA and I think Draymond is there now. It's that simple. |
Agreed that Draymond was an undersized 4 with well rounded skills. Agreed he was hard to judge next level. But it's not like GMs/scouts thought he would become, in your opinion, a franchise player. He has far exceeded his own expectations as well as the rest of the league.
What makes it simple? Draymond had 4 years at Michigan St. to be the well-rounded player you love. Simmons, does that, now.
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | I'm shocked that when Jerry West says that a guy is a top ten talent and a franchise player that people try and argue with it. He was an all-time great player, the greatest GM of all time, and the architect of 2 of the 3 best dynasty's since the Jordan Bulls(Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the Warriors will get there). | Quote: | | Let's all swallow a little bit of pride and accept that that guy might understand the game and who you can build a team around better than us. He would laugh in a GM's face if they offered him the #1 overall pick for Draymond Green. |
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No. West said, he's a top 10 guy. He didn't say he was a franchise player.
From what I've read from you, you think a Top 10 player is a guaranteed franchise player. I disagree.
We have also listed players, much longer than 10 players, of guys that are arguable franchise players.
Why swallow any pride and defer to one's opinion? I can disagree with it and I think this discussion has gone quite well, with actual intelligence. You have made it clear that your idea of a franchise player doesn't have to be a shot creator, and I disagree with that.
I hope I have made it clear that a franchise player is a shot creator for himself or others first, and that "score-heavy" shot creators advance farther in the playoffs.
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Being a franchise player is not predicated on offensive talent IMO. It's about what you do to get your team wins and few players in the NBA |
That sums things up. But going by that statement, there are few franchise players, period. A stretch, but it is like saying Robert Horry and Derek Fisher franchise talent. |
I love those guys because they hit big shots but if you think they do even half as much as Draymond does you don't understand what he does for that team. |
I absolutely understand what Draymond does for the team. IMHO, he does, what the franchise don't have to do. He allows them to focus on their strengths.
IMHO, that is a glue guy, a 2nd or 3rd option. That's Odom. Kukoc. Rodman. Horry. Odom at least had shot creating talent but not the aggression or leadership. He went from a #1 to #3/#4 option, and only won as a latter option of the offense. Kukoc? Stud 6th man, and underrated PF for the Bulls. Still, a #3 guy.
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