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activeverb
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 Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Phil did take Porzingis over the more popular Mudiay and Winslow. Phil also kept his superstar without going over market value, and while he dumped Smith, Shumpert, and Hardaway Jr., he still put the Knicks in position for a strong 2016 offseason.. |
Eh. Porzingis has had a good rookie season and is looking like a strong pick. Other than him, I don't think anything else Phil has done has been particularly impressive. Don't see that the Knicks are better positioned for a strong offseason than a ton of other teams in the league. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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If the Lakers picked 3rd they would have picked Porky.
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K28
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Phil did take Porzingis over the more popular Mudiay and Winslow. Phil also kept his superstar without going over market value, and while he dumped Smith, Shumpert, and Hardaway Jr., he still put the Knicks in position for a strong 2016 offseason.. |
Eh. Porzingis has had a good rookie season and is looking like a strong pick. Other than him, I don't think anything else Phil has done has been particularly impressive. Don't see that the Knicks are better positioned for a strong offseason than a ton of other teams in the league. |
Phil hasn't even had two full seasons at the helm.
Phil taking Porzingis over strenous objections by the media and the Knick fanbase tells you something though.
The Knicks are in far better position than the Lakers for sure. |
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K28
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | If the Lakers picked 3rd they would have picked Porky. |
Doubt it. Okafor was the consensus #2 pick, so if Towns went first, they'd have ended up with either Okafor or Russell. |
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K28
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Jim certainly did not bring up his deadline while recruiting FAs, Jeannie absolutely did. |
What does the deadline have to do with Free Agency? Do you actually believe the Lakers had a chance with Aldridge? He wanted to win, and it was between the Lakers and the Spurs, his choice was a no brainer. The money was the same.
In Melo's case, he wanted the money, and took more money to stay with the Knicks.
The Lakers clearly overestimated the appeal of LA to these free agents.
Last edited by K28 on Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Phil did take Porzingis over the more popular Mudiay and Winslow. Phil also kept his superstar without going over market value, and while he dumped Smith, Shumpert, and Hardaway Jr., he still put the Knicks in position for a strong 2016 offseason.. |
Eh. Porzingis has had a good rookie season and is looking like a strong pick. Other than him, I don't think anything else Phil has done has been particularly impressive. Don't see that the Knicks are better positioned for a strong offseason than a ton of other teams in the league. |
Phil hasn't even had two full seasons at the helm.
Phil taking Porzingis over strenous objections by the media and the Knick fanbase tells you something though.
The Knicks are in far better position than the Lakers for sure. |
Phil wanted Oak with that pick. His staff talked him into Porzingis, which is a credit to him for listening. I think our drafting has been great, so no real need for a change there. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | If the Lakers picked 3rd they would have picked Porky. |
Doubt it. Okafor was the consensus #2 pick, so if Towns went first, they'd have ended up with either Okafor or Russell. |
The media reported it was between Russell and KP after Okafor's poor workout. |
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K28
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | K28 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | If the Lakers picked 3rd they would have picked Porky. |
Doubt it. Okafor was the consensus #2 pick, so if Towns went first, they'd have ended up with either Okafor or Russell. |
The media reported it was between Russell and KP after Okafor's poor workout. |
The media reports a lot of stuff, so what? None of this is first hand or substantiated. |
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Math
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Couple of issues here:
1. Pushed the Kobe extension - Bresnahan says she did, Jeanie says she didn't. Depends on who you believe I guess but if you're going with Bresnahan by default you're saying Jeanie is lying.
Q: Looking ahead a bit, what light can you shed on the plan?
A: "That's where you'd have to ask Mitch and Jimmy what the plan is. I can't explain it. I don't know what it is. If you go back to the Instagram posting of Kobe signing his contract (extension worth a combined $48 million over two years), and you look at who's in the picture, I'm not in the picture. Jimmy and Mitch made that decision. I'm in full support of it."
2. Was directly involved in the process to hire Byron Scott - If by involved you mean she was updated and offered feedback as she felt needed, then sure. I can't imagine a President being less involved than that though. It's unclear, as far as I'm aware, how much feed back she offered.
This is the quote from the article you linked to.
"Lakers executives Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak will do the majority of the work via phone calls and interviews with numerous candidates but Jeanie Buss will be updated continually and offer feedback if she feels the need." |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Math wrote: |
Couple of issues here:
1. Pushed the Kobe extension - Bresnahan says she did, Jeanie says she didn't. Depends on who you believe I guess but if you're going with Bresnahan by default you're saying Jeanie is lying.
Q: Looking ahead a bit, what light can you shed on the plan?
A: "That's where you'd have to ask Mitch and Jimmy what the plan is. I can't explain it. I don't know what it is. If you go back to the Instagram posting of Kobe signing his contract (extension worth a combined $48 million over two years), and you look at who's in the picture, I'm not in the picture. Jimmy and Mitch made that decision. I'm in full support of it."
2. Was directly involved in the process to hire Byron Scott - If by involved you mean she was updated and offered feedback as she felt needed, then sure. I can't imagine a President being less involved than that though. It's unclear, as far as I'm aware, how much feed back she offered.
This is the quote from the article you linked to.
"Lakers executives Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak will do the majority of the work via phone calls and interviews with numerous candidates but Jeanie Buss will be updated continually and offer feedback if she feels the need." |
Right after that line it says that she is one of the three people narrowing the candidates before it is presented to other siblings. Does this scream "Gives Jim full authority to do whatever he wants" to you?
Btw, can you link the interview where she says she isn't in the picture? I'd like to see it. |
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Math
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Math
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: |
Right after that line it says that she is one of the three people narrowing the candidates before it is presented to other siblings. Does this scream "Gives Jim full authority to do whatever he wants" to you?
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No, it doesn't. But they did seem to define the terms of her involvement in this statement, "Lakers executives Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak will do the majority of the work via phone calls and interviews with numerous candidates but Jeanie Buss will be updated continually and offer feedback if she feels the need."
Again, "offer feedback if she feels the need" is a bit vague, so who knows.
But if you read the interview I linked to it supports "give Jim the full authority to do whatever he wants to" more than it screams "I am involved in all operational decisions as much as Jim and Mitch are." In fact she outright states the opposite.
From what I've read it seems like a pretty traditional role. She is presented information, weighs in if she feels like she needs to, and ultimately lets them make the decision. |
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Math
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Definitely a curious answer to the question that was asked. And that they made the ultimate decision doesn't mean it didn't originate somewhere else. But since she was willing to throw it out there like that, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. |
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Math
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: |
Thanks. Definitely a curious answer to the question that was asked. And that they made the ultimate decision doesn't mean it didn't originate somewhere else. But since she was willing to throw it out there like that, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. |
For sure. It seems to be a not-so-subtle distancing herself from the extension, in particular, and all decision making, in general. But then she says, "I'm in full support of it." But I guess she has to say that at that point. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Math wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
Right after that line it says that she is one of the three people narrowing the candidates before it is presented to other siblings. Does this scream "Gives Jim full authority to do whatever he wants" to you?
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No, it doesn't. But they did seem to define the terms of her involvement in this statement, "Lakers executives Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak will do the majority of the work via phone calls and interviews with numerous candidates but Jeanie Buss will be updated continually and offer feedback if she feels the need."
Again, "offer feedback if she feels the need" is a bit vague, so who knows.
But if you read the interview I linked to it supports "give Jim the full authority to do whatever he wants to" more than it screams "I am involved in all operational decisions as much as Jim and Mitch are." In fact she outright states the opposite.
From what I've read it seems like a pretty traditional role. She is presented information, weighs in if she feels like she needs to, and ultimately lets them make the decision. |
That wasn't what I was arguing when I was responding to the poster who said that she literally had nothing to do with anything going on in basketball operations.
And obviously she isn't going to be making calls to the agents who she doesn't know.
As for all the full authority stuff, it's hilarious that she keeps saying that and Jim keeps saying that she has the power to override him. Both are legalistic interpretations of a decision making process that she is trying to wash her hands of and he is trying to pull her back in. "Oh I had nothing to do with that thing that you didn't ask about that I brought up myself, but I support it completely." Clearly there is a lot going on behind the scenes.
When Jerry made coaching hiring decisions, he pretty much made them by himself. Now it seems the the entire family is involved in this very basketball operations-y decision, and Jeanie more-so than anyone other than Jim, which I guess is a reaction to Jim surprising Phil with the hasty MDA announcement and pissing off Jeanie in the process. With this, and actually being the driver of free agent meetings, she won't be able to completely wash her hands, which makes this stupid deadline business even more complicated. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Note the line that she doesn't interfere with decisions about players. Not coaches. Players. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | If the Lakers picked 3rd they would have picked Porky. |
Doubt it. Okafor was the consensus #2 pick, so if Towns went first, they'd have ended up with either Okafor or Russell. |
No, the Lakers had it down to Russell or Porzingis
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Jim certainly did not bring up his deadline while recruiting FAs, Jeannie absolutely did. |
What does the deadline have to do with Free Agency? Do you actually believe the Lakers had a chance with Aldridge? He wanted to win, and it was between the Lakers and the Spurs, his choice was a no brainer. The money was the same.
In Melo's case, he wanted the money, and took more money to stay with the Knicks.
The Lakers clearly overestimated the appeal of LA to these free agents. |
Do you really think it is a good idea to mention that part of the FO was on the clock when that person was trying to recruit FAs? Do you not think that would harm to recruiting? If so you wouldn't last long in the NBA.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Math wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
Right after that line it says that she is one of the three people narrowing the candidates before it is presented to other siblings. Does this scream "Gives Jim full authority to do whatever he wants" to you?
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No, it doesn't. But they did seem to define the terms of her involvement in this statement, "Lakers executives Jim Buss and Mitch Kupchak will do the majority of the work via phone calls and interviews with numerous candidates but Jeanie Buss will be updated continually and offer feedback if she feels the need."
Again, "offer feedback if she feels the need" is a bit vague, so who knows.
But if you read the interview I linked to it supports "give Jim the full authority to do whatever he wants to" more than it screams "I am involved in all operational decisions as much as Jim and Mitch are." In fact she outright states the opposite.
From what I've read it seems like a pretty traditional role. She is presented information, weighs in if she feels like she needs to, and ultimately lets them make the decision. |
And then she either agrees with the decision and allows it to proceed or disagrees with the decision and it dies. As I have said before, if blame it to be assigned, no one is blameless.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers are in a good position, better position than the Knicks.
Phil inherited a horrendous Knicks situation where there was draft picks traded in 2 of his first 3 years. His NY Knicks teams will be in the lottery in 2014, 2015 and likely 2016, yet only have Porzingis to show for it. Yes great move by Phil, but most smart people who know talent can draft. It's nothing we need Phil doing in LA. The Lakers in that time will likely be able to draft 3 high lottery picks. From a talent attaining perspective, the Lakers don't need Phil. They have done just fine with Randle, Russ, Clarkson and whomever they draft this year with the top 3. That's not where I think people should make a case for a regime change.
What my concern with Jim and Mitch as well is whether they have a vision on how they see a team play and win championships. Their coaching hires lead me to believe they don't. They seem to think that they just need to get the most talent possible and worry about the rest later. Which is certainly not a bad way to go about it. There are worst ways. I just question if either has that vision that Jerry West had with Shaq/Kobe and that young Lakers teams of the 90's.
Mitch is a fantastic trading/negotiating GM. He can trade for a superstar. He can get talent. But what about putting the pieces together? What about knowing that the parts need to fit and fit in a way they'll hit the championship level. This is the first time he's truly in the Jerry West role from the 90's. So lets see his vision.
Some will say OKC. Yeah and what has OKC won? Never mind that OKC was able to luck into 2 franchise talents with Westbrook/Durant. One may be an all-time great top 15 player when it's all said and done (Durant IMO has that potential). We didn't exactly get that lucky with our draft picks in the "lottery era". We may have drafted a franchise point guard/guard in Russ, but we didn't likely get that OKC type of thing going. So we need more major moves to be competitive. Can't solely rely on the draft like OKC did, because OKC got very fortunate.
What I'd like Jim or Mitch to do is make a clear decision on how they want to play, what they want to accomplish and then go out and sign guys that fit that. You can't always land the top guys, but you should always be competitive. This is where the Lakers have lost their way the last few years. Under Jerry West in the 1990's even without Magic, we were always competitive. We had 1 lotto year and even that year were drafting 10th. We never had this type of run, because West always knew what type of team put together to be competitive. I also feel our "tanking" is rather unintentional. I don't think there is a true tanking mindset, just a lack of ability to put a competitive team without having a superstar in prime. Yet, Jerry West was able to do that. That's what made him special. Also helped that I don't think Dr Buss would have ever tolerated what we've seen the last few years.
Either way, from a re-build point of view, we have not missed Phil Jackson. Where we missed out IMO is the way Kobe closed his career out. Totally brutal. Having a Jackson would have helped there as he'd have put together a more competitive suiting environment for him. However in regards to the longrun, the Lakers have done well. If they can keep the top 3 pick, they'll have that + Russ, Randle and Clarkson. They'll have 50 million or so in cap to spend after re-signing JC. They can improve a great deal. The talent has been put together and the means are there to improve massively. I can see us be a 45-50 win team within a year or two.
There are worse organizations than the Lakers and far worse front offices. Jim/Mitch to me aren't nearly as bad as some make them out to be, but they are not of the standard set by Dr Buss/Jerry West. We were accustomed to constant competitive teams, and now the Lakers are more like every other team. Go through a long playoff drought, then get competitive, then get back in the playoffs. It's not something one is used to as a Laker fan, or would have happened under Dr Buss' watch (I think he simply lacked the patience to see his teams play bad for long, look at the Mike Brown firing).
Finally, I don't think Jim is going anywhere. He's here to stay. And that's ok with me, because I think after suffering these 3-4 years, I feel it's time to move back up and enjoy the way up. The positive in this crap period has been that the Lakers have added a ton of young players that can be used as core players or trade assets. To Jim's credit he has not stepped in the way of re-building a young longterm team. He's far better than many other owners in the league who simply are in it for the bragging rights or having a "toy" to play with as a luxury. This is in his and Jeannie's blood and they love the team. They won't be awful, IMO. But I highly doubt the Lakers will be as competitive and constantly good as they were in the 80's 90's and 00's (Just 2 lotto appearances in 30 years, 15 NBA Finals or something like that). |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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^
Sorry for the essay.  |
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Nope. That article has no sources. Refuted by Jeanie multiple times. Read the articles with Jim's quotes. That was all him and Mitch, they weren't pushed into anything.
It was Jim and Mitch's call on the coach.
| Quote: | | - Constantly bringing up Jim's deadline during FA pitching may have undermined Basketball Op's credibility |
Didn't cost anything. Only angered some* fans that when asked what consequences derived from such interviews, couldn't actually come up with anything, but blamed her for running away Aldridge all the same. These are the same ones that blamed Kobe before Aldridge came out and shot that down.
*I say some because to other fans, it is quite comforting to know that a man that has constantly failed will not be in his position forever.
| Quote: | | - Her business operations side took up most of the alloted time in the Laker's disastrous first pitch to LaMarcus Aldridge. |
That's because the basketball side had nothing to talk about, and probably invited Jeanie to give the pitch in the first place. I mean, that is their primary pitch, there is no basketball reason why any top free agent would sign here. Jim and Mitch decided to go after LMA with nothing more than the allure of LA. That's on them.
| Quote: | | Not saying that she is the primary one responsible, but her hands are definitely not clean. |
And I disagree. She is not making decisions. She is not the one that created whatever plan is currently being enacted. She didn't put the man that created this plan in place. She is as hands off as you can possibly get when it comes to basketball.
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FromMagicToKobe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeanie blabs to the media too much. She aint making the Lakers look good by whining about her brother and airing out the Lakers internal affairs all the time. Both Jeanie and Jim make the lakers look foolish |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: |
Nope. That article has no sources. Refuted by Jeanie multiple times. Read the articles with Jim's quotes. That was all him and Mitch, they weren't pushed into anything.
It was Jim and Mitch's call on the coach.
| Quote: | | - Constantly bringing up Jim's deadline during FA pitching may have undermined Basketball Op's credibility |
Didn't cost anything. Only angered some* fans that when asked what consequences derived from such interviews, couldn't actually come up with anything, but blamed her for running away Aldridge all the same. These are the same ones that blamed Kobe before Aldridge came out and shot that down.
*I say some because to other fans, it is quite comforting to know that a man that has constantly failed will not be in his position forever.
| Quote: | | - Her business operations side took up most of the alloted time in the Laker's disastrous first pitch to LaMarcus Aldridge. |
That's because the basketball side had nothing to talk about, and probably invited Jeanie to give the pitch in the first place. I mean, that is their primary pitch, there is no basketball reason why any top free agent would sign here. Jim and Mitch decided to go after LMA with nothing more than the allure of LA. That's on them.
| Quote: | | Not saying that she is the primary one responsible, but her hands are definitely not clean. |
And I disagree. She is not making decisions. She is not the one that created whatever plan is currently being enacted. She didn't put the man that created this plan in place. She is as hands off as you can possibly get when it comes to basketball. |
That's one way to spin it.
These things don't fit the narrative so let's just invent stuff that does.
Again, getting involved in coach selection and free agent pitching is not "as hands off as you can possibly get when it comes to basketball." What you're saying is just false. |
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