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FromMagicToKobe
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Joined: 03 Nov 2015
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 Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | FromMagicToKobe wrote: | | KB, TD, Bron and Shaq should all be top 10. |
all joking aside, i honestly don't feel duncan and lebron belong. |
you're crazy if you think TD doesn't belong. For LeBron i guess you could make a case for him being top 15 instead, but with 1 more ring he's easily top 10 no debate. Even now though i think he's probably in the 8-10 range |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| 27 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | FromMagicToKobe wrote: | | KB, TD, Bron and Shaq should all be top 10. |
all joking aside, i honestly don't feel duncan and lebron belong. |
I dunno man, Duncan is considered the best PF ever, he probably should be in the top 10.
LeBron should be in there too, i know you don't care for him much..but it doesn't bother me to have him in there.
It is hard to see how Kobe would fall out of the top 10 though, but then again, its ESPN. |
yea. duncan for me, i can;t get past the fact that if you take the power forward label away and just consider him a big man and compare him to the likes of shaq, wilt, kareem...he falls out of the top 10 from that alone.
lebron...i think of all the muscular athletic freaks before him that not only would not be in the top 10, but not even considered top 50 or 100 or whatever. he's a physical freak with mediocre skills...mediocre in relation to top nba players. i can't get past the skill part. every other top 10 player is unbelievably skilled compared to lebron. |
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29726
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive skills were actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Last edited by P.K. on Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6040
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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People won't truly see Kobe's value for another 10 years. When people realize that winning more than 2 rings for a superstar has become virtually impossible in today's league with so much parity. Winning 5x..Kobe and Duncan will be the last to win so many rings. Lebron isn't getting more than 2. And I bet Curry doesn't exceed that amount either. Who knows when the next superstar will come around to win a handful of rings.
Winning 5 rings in modern NBA, along with being the best dominant superstar for almost 2 decades? Ha. Kobe is in my top 3. Kid yourself if you think otherwise. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
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evetssteve10
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Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wow what a joke. Pissing on the guy even as he is walking out the door.
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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evetssteve10
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakers#1fan wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | I expected Lebron might go ahead of him, but Oscar, Shaq and Hakeem? Come on. |
Expected as in?? What do you mean by that?
It is blasphemous to put LeBron top 10 all time at this point in his career. |
There is not a single reason I can come up with that would put Lebron over Kobe, and I think Lebron is a great player. That is absolutely ridiculous on so many levels though. I hope Kobe goes on an absolute tear the next couple months I don't even care about the pick anymore
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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where24happens
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 3410
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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This entire NBArank is a travesty. ESPN should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for turning to Buzzfeed-like attention-whoring stuff like this.
The only thing more ridiculous than putting Kobe at #12 was putting Steph Curry at #23 after only TWO great seasons. Think about that. ESPN thinks Steph Curry is only 11 spots behind Kobe freakin Bryant on the All-Time list. THINK ABOUT THAT. |
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evetssteve10
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Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| where24happens wrote: | This entire NBArank waiss a travesty. ESPN should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for turning to Buzzfeed-like attention-whoring stuff like this.
The only thing more ridiculous than putting Kobe at #12 was putting Steph Curry at #23 after only TWO great seasons. Think about that. ESPN thinks Steph Curry is only 11 spots behind Kobe freakin Bryant on the All-Time list. THINK ABOUT THAT. |
It's almost like saying the most spots that Durant can rise is 13 if he wins 5 titles
Btw, it's not even two seasons for curry it's 1.5
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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slavavov
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Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8351
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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ESPN is to Kobe as Fox News is to Obama. ESPN merely exists to play to the irrational hatred of a broad demographic group that also tends to be somewhat ignorant about basketball and therefore is easily swayed by rhetoric and a pseudo-analysis of advanced stats.
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29726
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Analytics will never love a guy like Kobe. He was a guy who'd take shot after shot when his team was down or in isolations which aren't exactly strong analytic plays.
To truly appreciate Kobe on defense and offense, you have to watch his game consistently. I know P.K. does watch and I respect the opinion, but what made Kobe a great defender wasn't that he brought it consistently, it's that he could shift gears and just play lock down defense when he could. He was carrying the team on offense and times could shut down the opposing team's best wing player as well. 2-way. He took many nights off on D, and that's why the analytics won't be strong for him. But if you watched closely over the years, Kobe's defense was stand out in some of the key playoffs and key games in the regular season.
Many people try to sell Kobe as a consistent great 2-way player, but he isn't. He wasn't Pippen. But he wasn't trying to be. He was playing the Jordan/Pippen dual role on offense and then also chipping in on D when need be.
A marvel - a competitor like no other. Even Phil said, Kobe took competition to another level. That's someone who coached Jordan. To not put Kobe top 10 is ridiculous in my book. I'm not even his biggest fan or anything on this site. Just obvious to me from watching his game for years and years.
I highly doubt anyone who voted Kobe out of the top 10 had watched 95+ percent of Kobe's games in the league like Laker fans have. And we know greatness since we've seen Shaq in his prime, Magic, Kareem etc. To put those guys in the top 10 and not Kobe, just ridiculous. This isn't like Hakeem with the Rox or Duncan with the Spurs as the 1 truly all time great they've had so of course fans overrate their own. We have seen Shaq in prime, Magic in prime, Kareem. And Kobe. He's right there. And an even better competitor. Again, ridiculous, yet typical of ESPN. |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29726
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Analytics will never love a guy like Kobe. He was a guy who'd take shot after shot when his team was down or in isolations which aren't exactly strong analytic plays.
To truly appreciate Kobe on defense and offense, you have to watch his game consistently. I know P.K. does watch and I respect the opinion, but what made Kobe a great defender wasn't that he brought it consistently, it's that he could shift gears and just play lock down defense when he could. He was carrying the team on offense and times could shut down the opposing team's best wing player as well. 2-way. He took many nights off on D, and that's why the analytics won't be strong for him. But if you watched closely over the years, Kobe's defense was stand out in some of the key playoffs and key games in the regular season.
Many people try to sell Kobe as a consistent great 2-way player, but he isn't. He wasn't Pippen. But he wasn't trying to be. He was playing the Jordan/Pippen dual role on offense and then also chipping in on D when need be.
A marvel - a competitor like no other. Even Phil said, Kobe took competition to another level. That's someone who coached Jordan. To not put Kobe top 10 is ridiculous in my book. I'm not even his biggest fan or anything on this site. Just obvious to me from watching his game for years and years.
I highly doubt anyone who voted Kobe out of the top 10 had watched 95+ percent of Kobe's games in the league like Laker fans have. And we know greatness since we've seen Shaq in his prime, Magic, Kareem etc. To put those guys in the top 10 and not Kobe, just ridiculous. This isn't like Hakeem with the Rox or Duncan with the Spurs as the 1 truly all time great they've had so of course fans overrate their own. We have seen Shaq in prime, Magic in prime, Kareem. And Kobe. He's right there. And an even better competitor. Again, ridiculous, yet typical of ESPN. |
I vote Kobe in the top 10, as I've stated a few time...
that part I bolded is an interesting point.
I forget the exact #'s, so don't hold me to it, but it was something like
Kobe regular season DBPM: -0.50
Kobe playoffs DBPM: +0.7x
remembering that 0.00 is average for the league
So, what you're saying is exactly right according to both the stats and my own eyeball test.
coasted on D during (most of) the regular season
turned it up in the playoffs
Different people can, and probably will, attempt to draw different conclusions from that
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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aachan
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1863
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| What a load of flaming hot (bleep). |
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evetssteve10
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Analytics will never love a guy like Kobe. He was a guy who'd take shot after shot when his team was down or in isolations which aren't exactly strong analytic plays.
To truly appreciate Kobe on defense and offense, you have to watch his game consistently. I know P.K. does watch and I respect the opinion, but what made Kobe a great defender wasn't that he brought it consistently, it's that he could shift gears and just play lock down defense when he could. He was carrying the team on offense and times could shut down the opposing team's best wing player as well. 2-way. He took many nights off on D, and that's why the analytics won't be strong for him. But if you watched closely over the years, Kobe's defense was stand out in some of the key playoffs and key games in the regular season.
Many people try to sell Kobe as a consistent great 2-way player, but he isn't. He wasn't Pippen. But he wasn't trying to be. He was playing the Jordan/Pippen dual role on offense and then also chipping in on D when need be.
A marvel - a competitor like no other. Even Phil said, Kobe took competition to another level. That's someone who coached Jordan. To not put Kobe top 10 is ridiculous in my book. I'm not even his biggest fan or anything on this site. Just obvious to me from watching his game for years and years.
I highly doubt anyone who voted Kobe out of the top 10 had watched 95+ percent of Kobe's games in the league like Laker fans have. And we know greatness since we've seen Shaq in his prime, Magic, Kareem etc. To put those guys in the top 10 and not Kobe, just ridiculous. This isn't like Hakeem with the Rox or Duncan with the Spurs as the 1 truly all time great they've had so of course fans overrate their own. We have seen Shaq in prime, Magic in prime, Kareem. And Kobe. He's right there. And an even better competitor. Again, ridiculous, yet typical of ESPN. |
Yea you can't rank a player with an equation that I don't even understand. Kobe couldnt care less about some of these "advanced metrics" they take into account, and then there are players out there who are the opposite who try to pad some of these numbers.
Win shares might be the most useless stat in existence especially when you are talking about a guy with 5 rings
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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evetssteve10
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Analytics will never love a guy like Kobe. He was a guy who'd take shot after shot when his team was down or in isolations which aren't exactly strong analytic plays.
To truly appreciate Kobe on defense and offense, you have to watch his game consistently. I know P.K. does watch and I respect the opinion, but what made Kobe a great defender wasn't that he brought it consistently, it's that he could shift gears and just play lock down defense when he could. He was carrying the team on offense and times could shut down the opposing team's best wing player as well. 2-way. He took many nights off on D, and that's why the analytics won't be strong for him. But if you watched closely over the years, Kobe's defense was stand out in some of the key playoffs and key games in the regular season.
Many people try to sell Kobe as a consistent great 2-way player, but he isn't. He wasn't Pippen. But he wasn't trying to be. He was playing the Jordan/Pippen dual role on offense and then also chipping in on D when need be.
A marvel - a competitor like no other. Even Phil said, Kobe took competition to another level. That's someone who coached Jordan. To not put Kobe top 10 is ridiculous in my book. I'm not even his biggest fan or anything on this site. Just obvious to me from watching his game for years and years.
I highly doubt anyone who voted Kobe out of the top 10 had watched 95+ percent of Kobe's games in the league like Laker fans have. And we know greatness since we've seen Shaq in his prime, Magic, Kareem etc. To put those guys in the top 10 and not Kobe, just ridiculous. This isn't like Hakeem with the Rox or Duncan with the Spurs as the 1 truly all time great they've had so of course fans overrate their own. We have seen Shaq in prime, Magic in prime, Kareem. And Kobe. He's right there. And an even better competitor. Again, ridiculous, yet typical of ESPN. |
I vote Kobe in the top 10, as I've stated a few time...
that part I bolded is an interesting point.
I forget the exact #'s, so don't hold me to it, but it was something like
Kobe regular season DBPM: -0.50
Kobe playoffs DBPM: +0.7x
remembering that 0.00 is average for the league
So, what you're saying is exactly right according to both the stats and my own eyeball test.
coasted on D during (most of) the regular season
turned it up in the playoffs
Different people can, and probably will, attempt to draw different conclusions from that |
And how about the fact that Kobe took it upon himself to guard the other teams best player for his entire career
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"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144472
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Duncan should be in the top 10. I'm more interested in the others that bumped Kobe out...and I hope the final 3 years weren't really a consideration into Kobe being bumped out. |
Most of the really great players have a couple of years at the end of their careers where they are shells of their former selves.
Jordan had his Wizard years (where he was still freaking good, just not Jordanesque), Bird had his bad back years, Shaq's last few years, etc
The people voting on this know that, and I'd be really surprised if they penalized anyone for it. |
They definitely penalized Kobe for it because they are living in the moment of Kobe being a shell of his former self. They didnt even include his 10+ all nba defensive honors when considering his ranking. |
You don't know that.
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la4win
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 2247
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Top one in my list since I didn't start watching bball prior to 99. Don't care about espn list what so ever. |
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evetssteve10
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Duncan should be in the top 10. I'm more interested in the others that bumped Kobe out...and I hope the final 3 years weren't really a consideration into Kobe being bumped out. |
Most of the really great players have a couple of years at the end of their careers where they are shells of their former selves.
Jordan had his Wizard years (where he was still freaking good, just not Jordanesque), Bird had his bad back years, Shaq's last few years, etc
The people voting on this know that, and I'd be really surprised if they penalized anyone for it. |
They definitely penalized Kobe for it because they are living in the moment of Kobe being a shell of his former self. They didnt even include his 10+ all nba defensive honors when considering his ranking. |
You don't know that. |
Kobes 12-13 campaign might be THE most impressive for a player his age in the last 20 years. One of the most underrated seasons I've ever watched and never gets mentioned.
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"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
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venturalakersfan
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Posts: 144472
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | ESPN is to Kobe as Fox News is to Obama. ESPN merely exists to play to the irrational hatred of a broad demographic group that also tends to be somewhat ignorant about basketball and therefore is easily swayed by rhetoric and a pseudo-analysis of advanced stats. |
Dude you just insulted Larry Coon.
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4stargeneralbulldog
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Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 739
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say reading the irate responses have been more fun than reading any of the ESPN rankings.
It's just opinions, as 1 member said, it's no different than some Joe sitting on the toilet compiling these rankings. |
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kobe209
Starting Rotation
Joined: 10 Dec 2012
Posts: 922
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29726
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| evetssteve10 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Analytics will never love a guy like Kobe. He was a guy who'd take shot after shot when his team was down or in isolations which aren't exactly strong analytic plays.
To truly appreciate Kobe on defense and offense, you have to watch his game consistently. I know P.K. does watch and I respect the opinion, but what made Kobe a great defender wasn't that he brought it consistently, it's that he could shift gears and just play lock down defense when he could. He was carrying the team on offense and times could shut down the opposing team's best wing player as well. 2-way. He took many nights off on D, and that's why the analytics won't be strong for him. But if you watched closely over the years, Kobe's defense was stand out in some of the key playoffs and key games in the regular season.
Many people try to sell Kobe as a consistent great 2-way player, but he isn't. He wasn't Pippen. But he wasn't trying to be. He was playing the Jordan/Pippen dual role on offense and then also chipping in on D when need be.
A marvel - a competitor like no other. Even Phil said, Kobe took competition to another level. That's someone who coached Jordan. To not put Kobe top 10 is ridiculous in my book. I'm not even his biggest fan or anything on this site. Just obvious to me from watching his game for years and years.
I highly doubt anyone who voted Kobe out of the top 10 had watched 95+ percent of Kobe's games in the league like Laker fans have. And we know greatness since we've seen Shaq in his prime, Magic, Kareem etc. To put those guys in the top 10 and not Kobe, just ridiculous. This isn't like Hakeem with the Rox or Duncan with the Spurs as the 1 truly all time great they've had so of course fans overrate their own. We have seen Shaq in prime, Magic in prime, Kareem. And Kobe. He's right there. And an even better competitor. Again, ridiculous, yet typical of ESPN. |
I vote Kobe in the top 10, as I've stated a few time...
that part I bolded is an interesting point.
I forget the exact #'s, so don't hold me to it, but it was something like
Kobe regular season DBPM: -0.50
Kobe playoffs DBPM: +0.7x
remembering that 0.00 is average for the league
So, what you're saying is exactly right according to both the stats and my own eyeball test.
coasted on D during (most of) the regular season
turned it up in the playoffs
Different people can, and probably will, attempt to draw different conclusions from that |
And how about the fact that Kobe took it upon himself to guard the other teams best player for his entire career |
That's so far beyond delusional it's amusing.
Ron Artest would like to say hello.
and that's just one example
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Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| evetssteve10 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Duncan should be in the top 10. I'm more interested in the others that bumped Kobe out...and I hope the final 3 years weren't really a consideration into Kobe being bumped out. |
Most of the really great players have a couple of years at the end of their careers where they are shells of their former selves.
Jordan had his Wizard years (where he was still freaking good, just not Jordanesque), Bird had his bad back years, Shaq's last few years, etc
The people voting on this know that, and I'd be really surprised if they penalized anyone for it. |
They definitely penalized Kobe for it because they are living in the moment of Kobe being a shell of his former self. They didnt even include his 10+ all nba defensive honors when considering his ranking. |
You don't know that. |
Kobes 12-13 campaign might be THE most impressive for a player his age in the last 20 years. One of the most underrated seasons I've ever watched and never gets mentioned. |
Because we barely made the playoffs and then of course, Kobe got hurt and all. |
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KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kobe209 wrote: | | Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous. |
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol |
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