Duncan should be in the top 10. I'm more interested in the others that bumped Kobe out...and I hope the final 3 years weren't really a consideration into Kobe being bumped out.
Most of the really great players have a couple of years at the end of their careers where they are shells of their former selves.
Jordan had his Wizard years (where he was still freaking good, just not Jordanesque), Bird had his bad back years, Shaq's last few years, etc
The people voting on this know that, and I'd be really surprised if they penalized anyone for it.
They definitely penalized Kobe for it because they are living in the moment of Kobe being a shell of his former self. They didnt even include his 10+ all nba defensive honors when considering his ranking.
You don't know that.
Kobes 12-13 campaign might be THE most impressive for a player his age in the last 20 years. One of the most underrated seasons I've ever watched and never gets mentioned.
Because we barely made the playoffs and then of course, Kobe got hurt and all.
To be fair, our barely making the playoffs had more to do with our roster not matching our coach's philosophy, age and injuries. Kobe is the primary reason we even made the playoffs. Offensively, he was playing excellent basketball for a player of any age and while he wasn't great defensively, his offense more than made up for it.
For me, it's too soon to rank Lebron over Kobe. I have to wait to see what happens with the rest of his career, before I rank Lebron over him. I think that while the two championships in 6 appearances stat gets overemphasized, it's something to take into consideration. Personally I have:
1. Michael
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Moses
This is all opinión bit héroes mine bases on thefact that Lebron has not done anything of importance in the chips department.
1. MJ
2. Magic, best all around player
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Kobe
8. Bird
9. Kareem
10. Duncan
11. Lebron
12. Logo
Again, my O. _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team !
No need to fret. Kobe's legend will grow once he is retired and the further away we get from his playing days he will slowly move up the rankings. Polarizing players are never properly ranked because of the emotion involved. Same thing happened with Kareem.
Lol having Kobe ranked at 12th typical ESPN hate they just hate this man. Kobe at worst is 9th or 10th players like Lebron, Hakeem, Oscar, Shaq and to some extent Bird have little to no case being above Kobe. I had bad feeling they were going put Kobe from outside looking in for top 10 this is disgraceful.
Duncan should be in the top 10. I'm more interested in the others that bumped Kobe out...and I hope the final 3 years weren't really a consideration into Kobe being bumped out.
Most of the really great players have a couple of years at the end of their careers where they are shells of their former selves.
Jordan had his Wizard years (where he was still freaking good, just not Jordanesque), Bird had his bad back years, Shaq's last few years, etc
The people voting on this know that, and I'd be really surprised if they penalized anyone for it.
They definitely penalized Kobe for it because they are living in the moment of Kobe being a shell of his former self. They didnt even include his 10+ all nba defensive honors when considering his ranking.
You don't know that.
Kobes 12-13 campaign might be THE most impressive for a player his age in the last 20 years. One of the most underrated seasons I've ever watched and never gets mentioned.
Because we barely made the playoffs and then of course, Kobe got hurt and all.
To be fair, our barely making the playoffs had more to do with our roster not matching our coach's philosophy, age and injuries. Kobe is the primary reason we even made the playoffs. Offensively, he was playing excellent basketball for a player of any age and while he wasn't great defensively, his offense more than made up for it.
That's fair, but are going to do that for every season and for every player in the top 100? Probably not. Point being, we'll discount guys who didn't win a championship, or guys that got to the finals and lost, but then boost guys who got to the playoffs.
What about AI? Shouldn't he be revisited given he single handedly took his team to the finals? What about Karl Malone, does he get a boost? Are we going to downgrade players like Kobe for having the benefit of playing with Shaq? And Shaq, with Kobe? If Kobe gets a boost for making the playoffs under Mike Brown who sucked, shouldn't Lebron get a bigger boost for winning 60-whatever games with him and a lack of a supporting cast?
I get your point but if we're going to upgrade players because they had bad teammates and/or coaches, don't we need to downgrade players who had good teammates and/or coaches?
We're thin slicing for the players we like/dislike, but not extending the same to others.
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
Last edited by Nightwalker on Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject:
Nightwalker wrote:
KBH wrote:
kobe209 wrote:
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
I think I would have Kobe around 5, maybe 6. My main argument with myself is do I have him higher or lower than MJ. The homer in my usually has him ranked lower. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
I think I would have Kobe around 5, maybe 6. My main argument with myself is do I have him higher or lower than MJ. The homer in my usually has him ranked lower.
Wow that's much higher than I thought you rank him. I respect you for saying that sometimes it seems like you don't like Kobe much if at all. I feel Magic, Jordan, Kareem and Wilt were better players than Kobe everyone else is fair game Kobe has arguement against.
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
I think I would have Kobe around 5, maybe 6. My main argument with myself is do I have him higher or lower than MJ. The homer in my usually has him ranked lower.
I've got him at 6th on my list. But it doesn't bother me at all to see people have him at 8, 10, even 12. At that point we're talking shades of gray.
I'd bet the 13th player on that list was incredible, just as Kobe was.
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
I think I would have Kobe around 5, maybe 6. My main argument with myself is do I have him higher or lower than MJ. The homer in my usually has him ranked lower.
I've got him at 6th on my list. But it doesn't bother me at all to see people have him at 8, 10, even 12. At that point we're talking shades of gray.
I'd bet the 13th player on that list was incredible, just as Kobe was.
Jerry West # 13
Dr J #14
it seems to me that we'd be better off if we'd stop talking about a Top 10 list and start talking instead about a Top 15 or Top 20 list. The number of guys coming up that are either going to be on a Top 10 list or right on the edges of it are starting to make a Top 10 list look too limited.
Lebron, Westbrook, Curry, AD, etc
not to mention taking guys like Kobe, West, Dr. J, Moses, etc and saying you're moving them out of the top #whatever _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Can we just be done with all-time rankings already? They are invariably dumb and based on arbitrary subjective ideas. I don't care if someone puts Kobe in the top 10, top 20, or top 100. I watched his entire career. I know what he did, I know how good he was. Trying to compare him to guys that played decades earlier or, down the road, decades later, at different positions, under different rules is pointless.
And if you want to keep investing yourself in these lists, then be prepared for being bent out of shape for the next many decades as players invariably surpass Kobe (and everyone else that gets thrown on these lists).
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:29 pm Post subject:
Nightwalker wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Nightwalker wrote:
KBH wrote:
kobe209 wrote:
Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 5 is just a hater. The all-around game and longevity of Kobe's career was just insane. Not to mention his impact on the game was just ridiculous.
This is where people take things to far. Kobe is my all-time favorite athlete and I personally rank him between 6-9 most of the time. That makes me a hater? lol
I have no problem with that being subjective Kobe ranks anywhere from 6-9 sounds about right. I personally have him 4th which might be too high for some people thinking that's overrating him which is fine outside the top 10 is so silly and an insult. I'm sorry but their isn't ten players in history with better resume than Kobe Bryant.
I think I would have Kobe around 5, maybe 6. My main argument with myself is do I have him higher or lower than MJ. The homer in my usually has him ranked lower.
Wow that's much higher than I thought you rank him. I respect you for saying that sometimes it seems like you don't like Kobe much if at all. I feel Magic, Jordan, Kareem and Wilt were better players than Kobe everyone else is fair game Kobe has arguement against.
The order changes everytime these things are posted, but Kareem and then Magic never changes. Then probably Wilt, TD, Kobe and MJ. Sometimes I get in a mood and Kobe is 3 or 4. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
I expected this crap from ESPN. Kobe should be at #3.
MJ
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
...
LeBron _________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
Even if ESPN ranks Kobe in the top 10, say ranking him no. 8 (which I have him ranked), how many of you here wouldn't blow a gasket still?
Hell, there were numerous threads here where people were irate that many Laker fans ranked Magic over Kobe or Kareem over him. And those are just legendary Laker players.
All of these lists are opinions. If you have Kobe as a top 5 player or think he's the goat, cool. But accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you do. That's life, get over it.
but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda.
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average.
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing.
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
mad55557777 wrote:
MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves.
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that.
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so.
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity.
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