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FreakofNature
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 9187
Location: Maui ...
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 Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think placing players in tiers, not exact spots is more "pliant" more flexible.
Tier 1
Kareem
MJ
Wilt
Magic
Kobe
Tier 2
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Bron
Big O
Russell
Duncan |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so. |
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity. |
you do realize that the stats treat every single current player exactly the same, right?
If they were using a set of advanced stats to compare Dwight Howard to Bill Russell when we don't have that data on Russell, that'd be an argument against it
however, those stats are comparing Kobe/CP3/Rose/etc on their games in the limited window of the 2011 season. Since they are using the same measuring stick, any shortfalls you perceive in the way they're measuring it would effect each and every player exactly the same.
For comparative purposes within the exact same data set, you can't really argue against it when used to rank one player against another
And, I'd also add that while there are perceived weaknesses in any analytical stat - DBPM and Points Allowed Per are pretty well accepted.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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hydrohead
Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 4108
Location: Space City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think a bigger outrage is putting Elgin #24.
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Darvin  |
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OCWA
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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My meaningless list
Top 5 in order
1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Wilt
next 5 no particular order
Kobe
Bird
Robertson
Hakeem
Shaq |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so. |
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity. |
you do realize that the stats treat every single current player exactly the same, right?
If they were using a set of advanced stats to compare Dwight Howard to Bill Russell when we don't have that data on Russell, that'd be an argument against it
however, those stats are comparing Kobe/CP3/Rose/etc on their games in the limited window of the 2011 season. Since they are using the same measuring stick, any shortfalls you perceive in the way they're measuring it would effect each and every player exactly the same.
For comparative purposes within the exact same data set, you can't really argue against it when used to rank one player against another
And, I'd also add that while there are perceived weaknesses in any analytical stat - DBPM and Points Allowed Per are pretty well accepted. |
Just... never mind. I'm not even going to bother. I don't care for these kinds of rankings discussions to begin with, and that quoted sentence... ugh. Too much illogic for me to deal with. |
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kobeandgary
Star Player
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 6339
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so. |
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity. |
you do realize that the stats treat every single current player exactly the same, right?
If they were using a set of advanced stats to compare Dwight Howard to Bill Russell when we don't have that data on Russell, that'd be an argument against it
however, those stats are comparing Kobe/CP3/Rose/etc on their games in the limited window of the 2011 season. Since they are using the same measuring stick, any shortfalls you perceive in the way they're measuring it would effect each and every player exactly the same.
For comparative purposes within the exact same data set, you can't really argue against it when used to rank one player against another
And, I'd also add that while there are perceived weaknesses in any analytical stat - DBPM and Points Allowed Per are pretty well accepted. |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so. |
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity. |
you do realize that the stats treat every single current player exactly the same, right?
If they were using a set of advanced stats to compare Dwight Howard to Bill Russell when we don't have that data on Russell, that'd be an argument against it
however, those stats are comparing Kobe/CP3/Rose/etc on their games in the limited window of the 2011 season. Since they are using the same measuring stick, any shortfalls you perceive in the way they're measuring it would effect each and every player exactly the same.
For comparative purposes within the exact same data set, you can't really argue against it when used to rank one player against another
And, I'd also add that while there are perceived weaknesses in any analytical stat - DBPM and Points Allowed Per are pretty well accepted. |
Just... never mind. I'm not even going to bother. I don't care for these kinds of rankings discussions to begin with, and that quoted sentence... ugh. Too much illogic for me to deal with. |
There's no illogic there at all
All the stats on the defensive side of the game are messy for most people to understand because they're not easy to track like FGA/FG%/AST/FT% etc. This is one of the reasons why the advanced metrics scare people so much - most people don't posses the critical thinking ability or the math to get their brains around it.
Your argument against is kind of like the guy last month that, during a comparison of MJ vs Kobe, said that DBPM is completely invalid because defensive forms of measurement favor big men, and this hurt Kobe
My response was exactly the same thing I told you - it affected MJ just as much, since we're comparing MJ vs Kobe and both were shooting guards.
in your case, we're looking strictly at guards and limiting their specs to only the 2011 season. The form of measurement may be messy, but it's equally as messy for Rose as it was for Kobe. Or for CP3, or Wade, or any other guard...
you're arguing it may not give an exact measurement, but it is entirely effective for a direct comparison.
to put it in simple terms: suppose I thought the curbs on the street in one town were taller then in another town, but I don't have a ruler or measuring tape. I take a stick, hold it up to the curb in town #1 and scratch a mark on it with my pocket knife - then I take it to town #2 and scratch another mark on it. I've now used a non-defined tool to measure these 2 curbs and can contrast the differences.
Defensive statistics aren't neatly measurable, which drives some people nuts. These advanced stats on the defensive side are messy because there are no crystal clear measurements like FG% or Assists. But, those advanced stats give a good tool to compare things of the exact same class (ie. 2 curbs or 5 guards).
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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Day
Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 1715
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
If Kobe was on the 90's Bulls instead of MJ what do you think the difference would be between their two careers ? |
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Day wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
If Kobe was on the 90's Bulls instead of MJ what do you think the difference would be between their two careers ? |
The stats would probably show MJ being 20% better than Kobe, instead of the 10% statistical gap there is now.
The so called "Jordan Rules" the Pistons came up with were pretty brutal, and copied by every team in the league - Kobe's had a cakewalk in comparison. If you doubt this consider that getting to the same exact scoring level (32,292 points), Kobe got 923 more points off of FT's then Jordan did (which translates into almost 1100 extra FT attempts) even though they shot almost the exact same career FT%.
Let's ask that question the other way too: You give Jordan a prime Shaq, say 1996-2004 (Shaq's Laker years), what do you think would happen? Before you make any statements you'll later regret, let's remember that Jordan played with krazy Dennis Rodman and all his antics.
Personally, I'd bet Jordan would be wearing 8 rings instead of only 6 in that scenario.
Of course, it's entirely probable that if MJ hadn't fooled around for 2 years to play baseball, he'd probably still have the same 8 rings.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Last edited by P.K. on Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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2019
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10804
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Jordan
Magic
Jabbar
Kobe
Russell
Bird
Chamberlain
Duncan
LBJ
Shaq
Olajuwon
done and done |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | Jordan
Magic
Jabbar
Kobe
Russell
Bird
Chamberlain
Duncan
LBJ
Shaq
Olajuwon
done and done |
this is a far more reasonable list. Without critiquing too much on the specific order of things, I still feel like a few names don't belong there.
Duncan, because I seem to be crazy about it.
Lebron, he's just not good enough.
Now, to make my case stronger, I need to find at least two names that are more worthy of those slots...and I don't mean James. The candidates are as follow...
Since I don't respect Lebron's skill level, the following players demonstrate more skill than he does:
Malone
Dr J
West
Oscar
Havlicek
Stockton
KG
Barkely
Isaiah
Pippen
Elgin
Duncan is a more difficult case for me. My main thing with him is the PF label gimmick. So I'll just list here big men that I may consider to be better than him:
Walton
Mchale
KG
M Malone
Mikan
Hayes
and people shouldn't be so quick to call him a better PF than K Malone because Malone actually played the position a hell of a lot more than Duncan did. So it's like talking about Hakeem and Malone as if they played the same position. It doesn't make Duncan a worse player or anything, but it just messes up the way we analyze it. |
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kobeandgary
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 6339
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | Day wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
If Kobe was on the 90's Bulls instead of MJ what do you think the difference would be between their two careers ? |
The stats would probably show MJ being 20% better than Kobe, instead of the 10% statistical gap there is now.
The so called "Jordan Rules" the Pistons came up with were pretty brutal, and copied by every team in the league - Kobe's had a cakewalk in comparison. If you doubt this consider that getting to the same exact scoring level (32,292 points), Kobe got 923 more points off of FT's then Jordan did (which translates into almost 1100 extra FT attempts) even though they shot almost the exact same career FT%.
Let's ask that question the other way too: You give Jordan a prime Shaq, say 1996-2004 (Shaq's Laker years), what do you think would happen? Before you make any statements you'll later regret, let's remember that Jordan played with krazy Dennis Rodman and all his antics.
Personally, I'd bet Jordan would be wearing 8 rings instead of only 6 in that scenario.
Of course, it's entirely probable that if MJ hadn't fooled around for 2 years to play baseball, he'd probably still have the same 8 rings. |
If you think the Jordan rules were worse than what Kobe faced I don't know what to tell you, Jordan was consistently defended by shorter less athletic defenders in a era where you couldn't zone up and could easily isolate against one defender. Kobe regularly faced taller and longer defenders in a era where you could freely double as much as you want. If you look at how long it took Jordan to start winning and how long it took Kobe to start winning I say Jordan gets the same three rings with Shaq and Shaq leaves for money still. I think Kobe dominates the weaker guards of the 80s and puts up more than 6 rings and at least one scoring game that topples the legendary 81. I also think Jordans stats go down from sharing the spotlight with Shaq and like Kobe would have his best scoring years until Gasol showed up. |
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bum2
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Posts: 809
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:42 am Post subject: |
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The advanced stats arent going to be too kind to Kobe going forward because of his scoring percentages and usage rates. Dwyane Wade might suffer in that regard, as well.
IMO, anything between 8-12 is about right. I think it is hard to compare 7 footers and guards though..its almost like two different sports. |
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4stargeneralbulldog
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| bum2 wrote: | The advanced stats arent going to be too kind to Kobe going forward because of his scoring percentages and usage rates. Dwyane Wade might suffer in that regard, as well.
IMO, anything between 8-12 is about right. I think it is hard to compare 7 footers and guards though..its almost like two different sports. |
Same here, I have him around the area of 8. I can't rank him above guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell. Now there is an argument to be made to rank him above a guy like Duncan, usually considered to be a top 10 player by many. |
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Dave20
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Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe's inefficiency is the biggest reason I think they have him ranked 12th. The players that are ranked ahead of him had much better advanced stats but they also took better shots. Kobe is probably the best tough shot maker ever, but he took far too many of them. I think he took too many 3's instead of getting to the rim more. While I don't agree with him being ranked 12th I understand why they did. |
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KBH
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | Even if ESPN ranks Kobe in the top 10, say ranking him no. 8 (which I have him ranked), how many of you here wouldn't blow a gasket still?
Hell, there were numerous threads here where people were irate that many Laker fans ranked Magic over Kobe or Kareem over him. And those are just legendary Laker players.
All of these lists are opinions. If you have Kobe as a top 5 player or think he's the goat, cool. But accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you do. That's life, get over it. |
I've had people get mad at me for calling him a top-10 player rather than top-5. |
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PrplReign
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Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 2796
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | tox wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | mad55557777 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | but, after Shaq left, Kobe pretty much quit playing defense |
Yeah, we're going to have to call bull (bleep) on this statement as well as your entire agenda. |
first article I found...there are 100's of others
it's not quite the level of Derek Jeter winning a Gold Glove award in baseball, but Kobe Bryant of the Lakers was given an honor on Monday that he really didn't deserve. Bryant was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team for the sixth straight season and the ninth time in his career. He received 13 first-team votes and seven second-team votes from the 30 NBA coaches, who determine the teams:
Bryant isn't necessarily a bad defender, but he is nowhere near one of the best two defensive guards in the NBA. Ron Artest took the bulk of tough defensive assignments this season, and while Kobe famously took to guarding Chris Paul for part of the first-round series with New Orleans, but the lasting image of that defensive matchup was Paul crossing over and blowing by Kobe in the first half of Game 4.
If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade.
And who can forget Charles Barkley laughing hysterically over Kobe being voted 1st team all Defense on national tv - and then rightfully pointing out that he was "a below average defender"
-0.5 below, as a matter of fact
I could find a couple of 100 more of these articles...oh, wait, here's one from ESPN
Defensively Bryant looks like the Derek Jeter of the NBA — soaking up defensive accolades on reputation rather than performance. Over his career (which includes 12 All-Defensive team nods) the Lakers have only been 0.6 points per 100 possessions better than average defensively, and Bryant’s long-term regularized defensive plus/minus of -0.9 is below average. |
if your article is from ESPN, it means nothing. |
spoken like a true believer in conspiracy theories. I pulled in the first 2 I found, from 2 different sources. You're welcome to go do a search and find any of the 100's more that say the same exact thing
| mad55557777 wrote: | | MJ's defensive honors later in his career are base are reputation too and he was in a era with no defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, etc |
So, wait - you're saying there have only been defensive specialists in Kobe's era?
Scottie Pippen doesn't count?
Bill Russell doesn't count?
Gary "the Glove" Payton doesn't count?
Dennis Rodman doesn't count?
Micheal Cooper doesn't count?
Sidney Moncrief doesn't count?
Joe Dumars doesn't count?
I could keep going on this too - especially back in the eras where defensive was actually taught in college and expected to be played everywhere.
Interesting point: MJ, who is unquestionably the greatest offensive bball player ever, used to say that the best defensive player he EVER FACED was Joe Dumars.
and, by the way, the discussion wasn't whether MJ got defended or not - the discussion was whether Kobe was actually deserving of all those "all defense team" honors or simply was voted in based on past reputation - or even if he was a good every day defender
-0.5 DBPM is pretty hard to argue with, but some of you guys are making a valiant try.
Kobe was a great player - and as I've said, I currently consider him about #8 overall. But, he was only an occasional defender who was basically indifferent on defense for the last 12 years or so years of his career - and I won't gloss over that in a feeble attempt to falsely prop him up higher then he deserves. |
It really isn't. DBPM is crap. Fiendish did me the favor of describing it, and it's a total nightmare of a stat. A negative DBPM is essentially "Our projections of your offensive contributions outweigh our projections of your overall contributions so we're just going to assume it's your defense." It literally takes any noise + inaccuracy + non-measurables offensively (setting good screens for example, and yes your true defensive contributions) in their projections and shoves it into DBPM. It also does a team adjustment, so you get a bonus for simply being in a good system.
Unless you sincerely believe Carlos Boozer was a plus defender until coming to the Lakers, I hope you don't use DBPM like that. |
"If you want advanced stats, Bryant's defensive rating was 105 points allowed per 100 possessions. For reference, Dwight Howard led the league with a 94.0 defensive rating and was named to the first team as well as winning Defensive Player of the Year. Other guards, to name a few, that rated better than Kobe defensively were (fellow first team guard) Rajon Rondo, (second-team guards) Tony Allen and Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and Dwyane Wade."
that article was from 2010 or 2011 I believe, back when DH, Rondo, Rose, and Kobe were all still healthy - so, if you don't like DBPM, points per also says essentially the same thing. Just in that single article, they listed 5 guards that spec'd out higher that year alone - and implied they could name more ("to name a few").
overrated - still a great player, but in this category, seriously overrated. When he wanted to (key words "wanted to") he could shut guys down. who can forget him taking over defensive duties on T-mac when Tmac was insanely going off...and shutting Tmac down?
however, he appeared to only "want to" about 1 game out of 20 after 2004 or so. |
You really think DRTG is a better stat? Yikes. We're talking about 2011, right? A quick glance shows this is bball reference's DRTG... that's one of the poorest stats to be using. So many confounding factors.
And yes, I'm of the belief that Kobe stopped playing defense in the regular season some time around 2008 or 2009 when injuries really started affecting him. So I actually agree with the conclusion that Kobe didn't deserve his First Team All Defense in 2011.
BUT I think the stats used to make this argument are not very good. And nothing drives me more crazy than people using faulty stats to give their arguments (correct conclusion or not) an air of objectivity. |
you do realize that the stats treat every single current player exactly the same, right?
If they were using a set of advanced stats to compare Dwight Howard to Bill Russell when we don't have that data on Russell, that'd be an argument against it
however, those stats are comparing Kobe/CP3/Rose/etc on their games in the limited window of the 2011 season. Since they are using the same measuring stick, any shortfalls you perceive in the way they're measuring it would effect each and every player exactly the same.
For comparative purposes within the exact same data set, you can't really argue against it when used to rank one player against another
And, I'd also add that while there are perceived weaknesses in any analytical stat - DBPM and Points Allowed Per are pretty well accepted. |
Just... never mind. I'm not even going to bother. I don't care for these kinds of rankings discussions to begin with, and that quoted sentence... ugh. Too much illogic for me to deal with. |
There's no illogic there at all
All the stats on the defensive side of the game are messy for most people to understand because they're not easy to track like FGA/FG%/AST/FT% etc. This is one of the reasons why the advanced metrics scare people so much - most people don't posses the critical thinking ability or the math to get their brains around it.
Your argument against is kind of like the guy last month that, during a comparison of MJ vs Kobe, said that DBPM is completely invalid because defensive forms of measurement favor big men, and this hurt Kobe
My response was exactly the same thing I told you - it affected MJ just as much, since we're comparing MJ vs Kobe and both were shooting guards.
in your case, we're looking strictly at guards and limiting their specs to only the 2011 season. The form of measurement may be messy, but it's equally as messy for Rose as it was for Kobe. Or for CP3, or Wade, or any other guard...
you're arguing it may not give an exact measurement, but it is entirely effective for a direct comparison.
to put it in simple terms: suppose I thought the curbs on the street in one town were taller then in another town, but I don't have a ruler or measuring tape. I take a stick, hold it up to the curb in town #1 and scratch a mark on it with my pocket knife - then I take it to town #2 and scratch another mark on it. I've now used a non-defined tool to measure these 2 curbs and can contrast the differences.
Defensive statistics aren't neatly measurable, which drives some people nuts. These advanced stats on the defensive side are messy because there are no crystal clear measurements like FG% or Assists. But, those advanced stats give a good tool to compare things of the exact same class (ie. 2 curbs or 5 guards). |
All-Defense teams are named by the voting of coaches, therefore I think that guys who had to watch Kobe in action against their teams have a better idea of exactly what Kobe did defensively to earn their votes as a member of each of the teams to which he was named. Toss often dubious rating analytics out the window here, these voters were uniquely qualified to rank defenders at any given position in any given season. I definitely feel that Kobe is inarguably in the top ten.
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu3vkwP3GHQ |
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Nobody
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 5722
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
MJ didn't do it at a much higher efficiency ratio. For someone so inclined to using advanced stats, you don't seem to have done your homework. Kobe's and MJ's points per shot and TS% (the only real measurement for scoring efficiency) are not quite far off. Kobe's probably took a hit since the season he tore his achilles, but still.
Kobe at 12 doesn't really do it for me. I'll give them Michael, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell and perhaps Duncan. Nobody did it at his level of consistency for so long, which puts him above Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. I could possibly understand those three, but that would still put him at no 10 at the worst. IWho else is there? LeBron, Dirk? The latter lacks Kobe's accolades, while the former will go down as one of the biggest losers if he continues this pace. 2-4 in 6 trips to the Finals doesn't bode well, even if your stats are the some of the best. |
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greenfrog
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Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| bum2 wrote: | The advanced stats arent going to be too kind to Kobe going forward because of his scoring percentages and usage rates. Dwyane Wade might suffer in that regard, as well.
IMO, anything between 8-12 is about right. I think it is hard to compare 7 footers and guards though..its almost like two different sports. |
It's not even advanced stats so much just as the dissolution of the primitive "count the rings" thinking that used to dominate these debates. It's like drooling over a pitcher's win total in baseball. We've just evolved beyond it. |
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Robster8989
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Very disrespectful of ESPN IMO.
It's difficult to compare different positions.
It's also difficult to compare players in different eras.
To me, there are 11 players in the top group.
Russell and Chamberlain from the early era.
Kareem bridges the cap between those 2 and the 80's surge.
Magic and Larry from the 80's glory years.
MJ bridges the cap between the 80's and 90's.
Dream does as well.
Shaq, Kobe, TD and Bron from the modern era.
That is an elite group.
Now where you rank those 11 is so subjective, everyone has their own criteria.
To me, the most important factors are:
-How dominant was the player and for how long?
- Championships (even though this can discriminate against players who happened to play for less than great teams, it's still important. For example, how do you choose between Wilt and Russell? One was so dominant, but the other won 11 chips, but was part of great teams). It still must be considered, as greats are measured by chips.
-Career stats
When ranking these 11 greats, I ask myself "is this player in the conversation and the GOAT, or are they great, but there are others obviously greater?
Tier 1 and Tier 2 if you will. Some may be tweeners, I can't put them, for certain, in Tier 1, but I wouldn't dare to put them in Tier 2.
Wilt- So dominant, but can't go in Tier 1 due to lack of championships. I can't put him in Tier 2, so a tweener.
Russell- Greatest team player of all time, a toss up to me. Tweener
Kareem- Tier 1, consideration as GOAT.
Magic- Tier 1, consideration as GOAT.
Larry- Great player, but not Tier 1 because of injuries/longevity. A tweener, like Russell? As much as I hated him, can't put him in Tier 2.
MJ- Tier 1. To me the GOAT
Dream- Tier 2. Great player but others with better resumes for GOAT.
Shaq- So dominant, but has holes, so likely Tier 2. If he had Kobes head he would be the undeniable GOAT.
Kobe- Frankly, Tier 1. I do not consider Kobe the GOAT, but his resume has no holes, so I'd have him in Tier 1, but likely lower than MJ, Magic and Kareem.
TD- Great player, but Tier 2. He was not the most dominant player most of his career. Kobe was considered more dominant, as was Shaq, during TD's career, but chips and longevity.
Bron- So far Tier 2, but his story is still being written, so he could rise.
Just my opinion, but ridiculous for ESPN to rank Kobe so low. To me, he is somewhere in the middle of the Top 11. As high as 4, maybe as low as 8 or so.
But to put him at 12 is ridiculous.
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K28
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Yawn. |
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kobeandgary wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Day wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
If Kobe was on the 90's Bulls instead of MJ what do you think the difference would be between their two careers ? |
The stats would probably show MJ being 20% better than Kobe, instead of the 10% statistical gap there is now.
The so called "Jordan Rules" the Pistons came up with were pretty brutal, and copied by every team in the league - Kobe's had a cakewalk in comparison. If you doubt this consider that getting to the same exact scoring level (32,292 points), Kobe got 923 more points off of FT's then Jordan did (which translates into almost 1100 extra FT attempts) even though they shot almost the exact same career FT%.
Let's ask that question the other way too: You give Jordan a prime Shaq, say 1996-2004 (Shaq's Laker years), what do you think would happen? Before you make any statements you'll later regret, let's remember that Jordan played with krazy Dennis Rodman and all his antics.
Personally, I'd bet Jordan would be wearing 8 rings instead of only 6 in that scenario.
Of course, it's entirely probable that if MJ hadn't fooled around for 2 years to play baseball, he'd probably still have the same 8 rings. |
If you think the Jordan rules were worse than what Kobe faced I don't know what to tell you, Jordan was consistently defended by shorter less athletic defenders in a era where you couldn't zone up and could easily isolate against one defender. Kobe regularly faced taller and longer defenders in a era where you could freely double as much as you want. If you look at how long it took Jordan to start winning and how long it took Kobe to start winning I say Jordan gets the same three rings with Shaq and Shaq leaves for money still. I think Kobe dominates the weaker guards of the 80s and puts up more than 6 rings and at least one scoring game that topples the legendary 81. I also think Jordans stats go down from sharing the spotlight with Shaq and like Kobe would have his best scoring years until Gasol showed up. |
"After a particularly ugly Finals in 1994, the league tried again, outlawing all hand-checking that happened from the baseline to the opposing three-point line. That somewhat alleviated the problem, but the game was still as physical as ever in the frontcourt. It was only in 2004, when the league disallowed any arm contact on drives and added a new defensive three-second rule, that hand-checking was truly eradicated. This is what Jordan faced every night. Nobody was quick enough to stay with him, so they clutched, grabbed and held to prevent him from getting to the basket. The Pistons started the practice, the Knicks continued it and countless other contenders copied it."
Kobe never faced anything like what Jordan faced with the "Jordan Rules" - where players were holding his arms, grabbing his jersey, or using arm bars and pushes on every single play to stop him from being able to get around the defender.
The most (single MOST) important element to stopping a perimeter player is to prevent him from getting around his primary defender. Zone defenses kick in after this, but getting around that primary defender is the single most critical point in a driving perimeter players success rate. Defenders could, and did, hold Jordan to prevent that. Kobe had a cake walk by comparison.
Let's add a statistics based element to that.
1. everyone that knows basketball will tell you that perimeter (offensive) players get fouls called on their drive in proportion to how close they are to the basket (ie. very few fouls are called at the 3pt line, progressively more fouls are called as the guard penetrates further in towards the basket. This fact is undeniable across any reasonably large offensive possessions for a guard or SF.
2. Both Kobe and MJ got to 32,292 pts.
MJ: 2ptrs 23,222 (72% of total), 3ptrs 1743 (5%), FT’s 7327 (23%)
KB: 2ptrs 19164 (59%), 3ptrs 5022 (16%), FT’s 8106 (25%)
That mean's Kobe got 16% of his points from 3pt land, while Jordan only got 5% of his from beyond the line.
The inarguable conclusion from that is that MJ spent a lot more time closer to the basket then Kobe did.
And yet, Kobe got approximately 1100 extra FT Attempts then MJ - and 923 "extra" points off of FT's made. That's about 12.6% more FT attempts then MJ even though Kobe took 300% more 3ptrs then MJ
Since we all know that fouls called are proportional to how close the perimeter player is to the basket, how do you explain that discrepancy? It'd be laughable to say Kobe went to the basket more then Air Jordan, so don't bother.
There's only one way to explain it - MJ played against the "Jordan Rules" where handchecking, grabbing, and pushing weren't called very often - and Kobe played in the whistlefest era where breathing on a perimeter player is a foul now.
WRT the rest of your highly imaginary post - as the guys on Sports Center said back during that Reggie Miller brouhaha "The problem is that now the analytic's have gotten much more advanced and all the metrics say, every single number on both sides of the ball, that clearly Jordan is better than Kobe." "They show it not just clearly, but by a wide margin"
I went and ran a comparison on all the basic and advanced stats for both MJ and Kobe that were being referenced. There were 11 separate categories. MJ was something like 8% better on only one of them. The rest ranged from 10+% to over 20%.
In a Top10 type ranking exercise where the differences between some players is razor thin, 10-20% better on 10 out of 11 categories is a statistical gap as wide as an ocean. It's not even close.
Or, as someone said it better than I can "They show it not just clearly, but by a wide margin"
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LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="P.K."] | kobeandgary wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | Day wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
If Kobe was on the 90's Bulls instead of MJ what do you think the difference would be between their two careers ? |
The stats would probably show MJ being 20% better than Kobe, instead of the 10% statistical gap there is now.
The so called "Jordan Rules" the Pistons came up with were pretty brutal, and copied by every team in the league - Kobe's had a cakewalk in comparison. If you doubt this consider that getting to the same exact scoring level (32,292 points), Kobe got 923 more points off of FT's then Jordan did (which translates into almost 1100 extra FT attempts) even though they shot almost the exact same career FT%.
Let's ask that question the other way too: You give Jordan a prime Shaq, say 1996-2004 (Shaq's Laker years), what do you think would happen? Before you make any statements you'll later regret, let's remember that Jordan played with krazy Dennis Rodman and all his antics.
Personally, I'd bet Jordan would be wearing 8 rings instead of only 6 in that scenario.
Of course, it's entirely probable that if MJ hadn't fooled around for 2 years to play baseball, he'd probably still have the same 8 rings. |
Kobe never faced anything like what Jordan faced with the "Jordan Rules" - where players were holding his arms, grabbing his jersey, or using arm bars and pushes on every single play to stop him from being able to get around the defender.
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I take it you haven't watched much of his career? |
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P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobody wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: |
Stats may treat everybody equally but you can't go by rainfall to compare what was more damageing a rain storm or a tornado. Stats tell a very small part of the story, I will say in my opinion Kobe was the most feared offensive force outside of Wilt Chamberlin, then you could ask him to become one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and he would go out and do that. He is one of if not the best passing two guard that ever played as well. His post game is also top two all time for guards. In my opinion Kobe is the most skilled basketball player that has ever lived, he just didn't have the greatest career of anybody ever. So for me personally I place Kobe number 1 on the list of best basketball players, and number two on the list of greatest. |
You actually believe that Kobe was more feared on offense then MJ? If you do, you need a serious reality check. MJ not only scored more points in less time then Kobe, he did it at a much higher efficiency ratio.
you want a comparison of this, go look at the stats on what it took for Kobe to tie MJ's scoring record - that's a definitive benchmark that both players hit exactly, so it's an inarguable measuring point. MJ took many less games, many many less shots, made them at a much much higher ratio, and got a whole lot less FT's then Kobe.
If you think Kobe was more feared then MJ offensively, you're delusional. |
MJ didn't do it at a much higher efficiency ratio. For someone so inclined to using advanced stats, you don't seem to have done your homework. Kobe's and MJ's points per shot and TS% (the only real measurement for scoring efficiency) are not quite far off. Kobe's probably took a hit since the season he tore his achilles, but still.
Kobe at 12 doesn't really do it for me. I'll give them Michael, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell and perhaps Duncan. Nobody did it at his level of consistency for so long, which puts him above Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. I could possibly understand those three, but that would still put him at no 10 at the worst. IWho else is there? LeBron, Dirk? The latter lacks Kobe's accolades, while the former will go down as one of the biggest losers if he continues this pace. 2-4 in 6 trips to the Finals doesn't bode well, even if your stats are the some of the best. |
So, both players got to the exact same scoring level of 32,292 pts
Kobe: 1269 games, 24,908 FGA, 11,261 FGM, 45.2%
MJ: 1072 games, 24,537 FGA, 12,192 FGM, 49.7%
MJ: 2ptrs 23,222 (72% of total), 3ptrs 1743 (5%), FT’s 7327 (23%)
KB: 2ptrs 19164 (59%), 3ptrs 5022 (16%), FT’s 8106 (25%)
That means it took Kobe almost 200 more games, almost 400 more FGA's, and 923 extra points from FT's (which translates to about 1100 extra FTA's - or normalized to about 550 additional FGA's) to get to exactly the same scoring level
You wanna tell me again who was more efficient??
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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