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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: How do you think Kobe has changed the game? |
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This has been something several people have said this year during the KFT. But nobody has been clear on exactly what he changed. So, from your perspective, what are they talking about? |
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DrumR Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 1336
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Off the top of my head work ethic. He showed there is no cap on how good you can be if you believe you're capable and put in the work. At his peak his game had no flaws and a counter to every move. I could go on but yeah...that's tops for me. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Playing through pain. Running through walls, good or bad. Just total mastery of every facet of the game. I don't think we've seen anyone like that ever. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Lakers2015 Star Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2015 Posts: 2315
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Playing through pain. Running through walls, good or bad. Just total mastery of every facet of the game. I don't think we've seen anyone like that ever. |
_________________ #CowboysNation
#LakeShow |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Playing through pain. Running through walls, good or bad. Just total mastery of every facet of the game. I don't think we've seen anyone like that ever. |
Those are all really great things about Kobe, but they don't address the question of changing the game. |
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deal Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 14900 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Now the ball goes in the hole... _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Playing through pain. Running through walls, good or bad. Just total mastery of every facet of the game. I don't think we've seen anyone like that ever. |
Those are all really great things about Kobe, but they don't address the question of changing the game. |
Umm. Successful Teams play less ISO ball? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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He's set the bar for excellence as a guard. He's arguably the most skilled guard to ever play the game. From post-play to mid-range mastery to three-point shooting, there wasn't a single aspect of his game he didn't perfect. His fg% took a hit because he wasn't afraid to take half-court heaves, end of the quarter shots and even end of the game shots. He simply didn't care and prioritized winning over everything. How has he not changed the game? Will we ever see someone score 81 points or 62 in three quarters again? I don't think so. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think more and more of the top players are putting in insane training work after observing Kobe. Probably filtered through and raised the overall skill level of the entire league. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Uh, what? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Uh, what? |
Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
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FromMagicToKobe Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Nov 2015 Posts: 667
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | greenfrog wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Uh, what? |
Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Another pointless response by ring finger in a Kobe thread. You're saying a bunch of nothing. In 04 the Pistons top 2 scorers were their SG and PG. In 06 the Heat won with Wade, their SG as their primary offensive player. You know damn well Kobe didn't "show" anyone you can win with a guard as the primary option, but hey you decided to post it anyway (twice) and qualify it with "Im not sure if I'm comfortable crediting Kobe for this" well duh you're not, because you know it's BS in the first place. So why post it breh? |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see where he has changed it at all. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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deal Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 14900 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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24 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Playing through pain. Running through walls, good or bad. Just total mastery of every facet of the game. I don't think we've seen anyone like that ever. |
Those are all really great things about Kobe, but they don't address the question of changing the game. |
Plus MJ did it before Kobe... _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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deal Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 14900 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mindripper2000 wrote: | He's set the bar for excellence as a guard. He's arguably the most skilled guard to ever play the game. From post-play to mid-range mastery to three-point shooting, there wasn't a single aspect of his game he didn't perfect. His fg% took a hit because he wasn't afraid to take half-court heaves, end of the quarter shots and even end of the game shots. He simply didn't care and prioritized winning over everything. How has he not changed the game? Will we ever see someone score 81 points or 62 in three quarters again? I don't think so. |
Excellence as a guard?, hum, again, MJ ...
Maybe Kobe was the best in his era, but that didn't
change he game, IMO... _________________ Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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FromMagicToKobe wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | greenfrog wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Uh, what? |
Feels a bit like I'm searching too much for an answer, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable credting Kobe for this, but, he was I think, the first toward the end of his era to show you can win with a guard as your primary offensive player. |
Another pointless response by ring finger in a Kobe thread. You're saying a bunch of nothing. In 04 the Pistons top 2 scorers were their SG and PG. In 06 the Heat won with Wade, their SG as their primary offensive player. You know damn well Kobe didn't "show" anyone you can win with a guard as the primary option, but hey you decided to post it anyway (twice) and qualify it with "Im not sure if I'm comfortable crediting Kobe for this" well duh you're not, because you know it's BS in the first place. So why post it breh? |
The Pistons were more team ball. Wade, yeah, I think you have a good point there though.
I'm not sure I understand the need for the tone of your post. I'm searching for particulars on how Kobe changed the NBA. Working hard or scoring 62 points in 3 quarters changed nothing. Players don't work harder because of Kobe.
I sort of remember folks saying, at the time, that you needed a dominant inside presence to win and that Kobe wouldn't be able to win without a "Shaq" type player. But he proved that wrong and now we're seeing guard-driven teams having success.
I said I wasn't sure if I was comfortable crediting Kobe with the "small ball" movement but it looks like your oversensitivity as it relates to #24 has you misunderstanding once again.
But alright, fine, you've convinced me that he didn't change the game by pushing a more guard oriented scheme.
Maybe Kobe was just a fantastic ambassador to the game, but didn't really change it. |
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dmorans1 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012 Posts: 11669
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure if Kobe changed the game but Duncan and LeBron didn't change the game either. Dirk was the guy from this generation that really changed the game. Or you could argue that KG did it first. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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dmorans1 wrote: | Not sure if Kobe changed the game but Duncan and LeBron didn't change the game either. Dirk was the guy from this generation that really changed the game. Or you could argue that KG did it first. |
Duncan was one of the dominant bigs that forced the league to add the zone. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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dmorans1 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012 Posts: 11669
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | dmorans1 wrote: | Not sure if Kobe changed the game but Duncan and LeBron didn't change the game either. Dirk was the guy from this generation that really changed the game. Or you could argue that KG did it first. |
Duncan was one of the dominant bigs that forced the league to add the zone. |
Shaq. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Tldr. But didn't see any of the players saying they worked harder because of Kobe. Mind quoting?
And personally, any KFT type stuff doesn't count (for me). People always overstate a person's contributions in those kinds of things (including eulogies). "Bob was the most generous person I know." What? I've known you for 20 years and you never said that!
I think Shaq changed the game more than Kobe, but Kobe was the better player. |
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dmorans1 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012 Posts: 11669
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Technically, Kobe Bryant was involved in a rule change. From Mark Cuban (around 2009):
"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise. "
...
"After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."
http://blogmaverick.com/2009/02/04/if-its-not-broke-doesnt-mean-its-optimal-even-in-the-nba/
(The blog also mentioned how Cuban is responsible for bringing the change to the "Clear Path Foul")
And then:
"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint."
And we know what happened shortly afterward. Scoring absolutely blew up. Suddenly we had a few guys scoring 30 ppg in one season, we had teams scoring in bunches (The Suns), we saw a man utterly destroy the Western champions in the Finals (Setting a record for Finals FTAs) and a dude scored 81 points in a single game. |
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dmorans1 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012 Posts: 11669
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Also, while Durant gets the most credit for the rip-through move, I'm pretty sure Kobe did it before him. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Melo, harden, bron, Westbrook, durant, rose, jimmy butler, wade are all who they are because of Kobe. |
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