| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dmorans1 wrote: | | Also, while Durant gets the most credit for the rip-through move, I'm pretty sure Kobe did it before him. |
Yah, I had thought about that one. The swing through.
But I think Reggie Miller did it prior. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dmorans1
Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 11669
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | | dmorans1 wrote: | | Also, while Durant gets the most credit for the rip-through move, I'm pretty sure Kobe did it before him. |
Yah, I had thought about that one. The swing through.
But I think Reggie Miller did it prior. |
That may be true. To be honest, don't remember who actually did it first. I know Kobe did it before Durant and then Durant did it the most often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the only thing I can think of is maybe versatility in the offense, being the primary initiator while also being the primary scorer...
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: How do you think Kobe has changed the game? |
|
|
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | This has been something several people have said this year during the KFT. But nobody has been clear on exactly what he changed. So, from your perspective, what are they talking about? |
I think it's just a cliche people like to throw out to acknowledge a player is great, but if pressed they won't have any specific thoughts what they mean. Every great player is great in his own way, but I don't think Kobe has changed the game of basketball. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mad55557777
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 23128
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The post skills by Kobe is by far the best ever in the NBA, but I doubt anyone can duplicate that.
Kobe is fundamental+hard work + talent+ creativity, learned every possible move by mj and even invented some himself ex bounce to the backboard and catch it for a layup or dunk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The answer is probably in this season. More players will start doing farewell tours. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: |
Tldr. But didn't see any of the players saying they worked harder because of Kobe. Mind quoting?
And personally, any KFT type stuff doesn't count (for me). People always overstate a person's contributions in those kinds of things (including eulogies). "Bob was the most generous person I know." What? I've known you for 20 years and you never said that!
I think Shaq changed the game more than Kobe, but Kobe was the better player. |
Several. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| fiendishoc wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
Tldr. But didn't see any of the players saying they worked harder because of Kobe. Mind quoting?
And personally, any KFT type stuff doesn't count (for me). People always overstate a person's contributions in those kinds of things (including eulogies). "Bob was the most generous person I know." What? I've known you for 20 years and you never said that!
I think Shaq changed the game more than Kobe, but Kobe was the better player. |
Several. |
Maybe you linked the wrong article? I read it. There wasn't anything in there where Griffin said he works harder because of Kobe Bryant. Mostly just Griffin being in awe of Kobe's work ethic.
That was a long wild goose chase man!  (The bike ride story was fun though so it wasn't a total waste). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
senthus
Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 989
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Have other teams fans chant MVP for an opposing player |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Honestly, I'm not sure Kobe changed the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. The vast majority of players, even the greats, didn't change the game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P.K.
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 29713
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KBH wrote: | | Honestly, I'm not sure Kobe changed the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. The vast majority of players, even the greats, didn't change the game. |
They changed about 5 or 6 different rules just to deal with Wilt's incredible dominance.
MJ changed the game from a bigman oriented (and slower) game to a perimeter oriented & absolutely electric game that's still in use today - and also proved you could build a team around perimeter players, not only bigmen like they believed in the past - not to mention what he did for player marketing (shoe contracts anyone?)
Magic & Bird revolutionized the game both from a pace & movement standpoint and from the standpoint of simply making it "must watch" and blowing the NBA up into the popularity juggernaut it became - before Bird vs Magic, the NBA could barely get on TV.
KAJ didn't necessarily revolutionize anything like Wilt did, but he was the first of the truly skilled dominant bigmen instead of the two types that had pretty much existed before (athletic freaks like Wilt, or lumbering strong guys). KAJ also kind of revolutionized the idea of a passing bigman who got assists from the post rather than just throwing bailout passes out of the post
Russel was just a guy that showed you could be truly dominant by being a defensive wall - although I'm not sure I'd say that was really revolutionary or game changing.
You can make a weaker case for Shaq and LBJ, but I could go either way on those guys.
TD, Kobe, Hakeem aren't really revolutionary as much as they're just really freaking good
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Last edited by P.K. on Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dmorans1 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | dmorans1 wrote: | | Not sure if Kobe changed the game but Duncan and LeBron didn't change the game either. Dirk was the guy from this generation that really changed the game. Or you could argue that KG did it first. |
Duncan was one of the dominant bigs that forced the league to add the zone. |
Shaq. |
Shaq was also one.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dmorans1 wrote: | Technically, Kobe Bryant was involved in a rule change. From Mark Cuban (around 2009):
"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise. "
...
"After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."
http://blogmaverick.com/2009/02/04/if-its-not-broke-doesnt-mean-its-optimal-even-in-the-nba/
(The blog also mentioned how Cuban is responsible for bringing the change to the "Clear Path Foul")
And then:
"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint."
And we know what happened shortly afterward. Scoring absolutely blew up. Suddenly we had a few guys scoring 30 ppg in one season, we had teams scoring in bunches (The Suns), we saw a man utterly destroy the Western champions in the Finals (Setting a record for Finals FTAs) and a dude scored 81 points in a single game. |
Good find, I wasn't aware of that. So there you go.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dmorans1
Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 11669
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | dmorans1 wrote: | Technically, Kobe Bryant was involved in a rule change. From Mark Cuban (around 2009):
"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise. "
...
"After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."
http://blogmaverick.com/2009/02/04/if-its-not-broke-doesnt-mean-its-optimal-even-in-the-nba/
(The blog also mentioned how Cuban is responsible for bringing the change to the "Clear Path Foul")
And then:
"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint."
And we know what happened shortly afterward. Scoring absolutely blew up. Suddenly we had a few guys scoring 30 ppg in one season, we had teams scoring in bunches (The Suns), we saw a man utterly destroy the Western champions in the Finals (Setting a record for Finals FTAs) and a dude scored 81 points in a single game. |
Good find, I wasn't aware of that. So there you go. |
Credit goes to some guy on reddit. But hey I'll take credit for finding his post. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evetssteve10
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When people say something like this about a legendary player they are mostly talking about their imprint on the next generation. There are certain traits that the truly memorable players are defined by that are emulated by the next generation and that's the true measuring stick of a great legacy
You hear countless players talk about how working with Kobe has changed their lives or complete outlook of the game
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
Tldr. But didn't see any of the players saying they worked harder because of Kobe. Mind quoting?
And personally, any KFT type stuff doesn't count (for me). People always overstate a person's contributions in those kinds of things (including eulogies). "Bob was the most generous person I know." What? I've known you for 20 years and you never said that!
I think Shaq changed the game more than Kobe, but Kobe was the better player. |
Several. |
Maybe you linked the wrong article? I read it. There wasn't anything in there where Griffin said he works harder because of Kobe Bryant. Mostly just Griffin being in awe of Kobe's work ethic.
That was a long wild goose chase man! (The bike ride story was fun though so it wasn't a total waste). |
I linked two articles which had numerous examples of players being inspired by Kobe's work ethic, like Blake and Durant. You had Artest saying that he's getting in extra workouts because of Kobe's example. Caron crediting him for taking his game to another level. Lebron and Melo were reported as emulating his training regimen to extend their careers. But if you want to keep interpreting all of it as Kobe having no effect on players' work ethic, go ahead if that gets you off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
Tldr. But didn't see any of the players saying they worked harder because of Kobe. Mind quoting?
And personally, any KFT type stuff doesn't count (for me). People always overstate a person's contributions in those kinds of things (including eulogies). "Bob was the most generous person I know." What? I've known you for 20 years and you never said that!
I think Shaq changed the game more than Kobe, but Kobe was the better player. |
Several. |
Maybe you linked the wrong article? I read it. There wasn't anything in there where Griffin said he works harder because of Kobe Bryant. Mostly just Griffin being in awe of Kobe's work ethic.
That was a long wild goose chase man! (The bike ride story was fun though so it wasn't a total waste). |
Blake is in awe of Kobe's work ethic, but not inspired by it?
And that is an indictment of Kobe?
Methinks you are spinning..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P.K. wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Honestly, I'm not sure Kobe changed the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. The vast majority of players, even the greats, didn't change the game. |
They changed about 5 or 6 different rules just to deal with Wilt's incredible dominance.
MJ changed the game from a bigman oriented (and slower) game to a perimeter oriented & absolutely electric game that's still in use today - and also proved you could build a team around perimeter players, not only bigmen like they believed in the past - not to mention what he did for player marketing (shoe contracts anyone?)
Magic & Bird revolutionized the game both from a pace & movement standpoint and from the standpoint of simply making it "must watch" and blowing the NBA up into the popularity juggernaut it became - before Bird vs Magic, the NBA could barely get on TV.
KAJ didn't necessarily revolutionize anything like Wilt did, but he was the first of the truly skilled dominant bigmen instead of the two types that had pretty much existed before (athletic freaks like Wilt, or lumbering strong guys). KAJ also kind of revolutionized the idea of a passing bigman who got assists from the post rather than just throwing bailout passes out of the post
Russel was just a guy that showed you could be truly dominant by being a defensive wall - although I'm not sure I'd say that was really revolutionary or game changing.
You can make a weaker case for Shaq and LBJ, but I could go either way on those guys.
TD, Kobe, Hakeem aren't really revolutionary as much as they're just really freaking good |
Yep. Agree with all of that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I don't see where he has changed it at all. |
I don't recall hearing anyone say that he did, to be honest. At this point, Kobe's style is obsolete anyway. I'm not sure what this thread is about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Blake is in awe of Kobe's work ethic, but not inspired by it?
And that is an indictment of Kobe?
Methinks you are spinning..... |
Oh there's no doubt Blake was in awe of, and inspired by, that Kobe bike riding story.
How did it change the game though? How did the NBA landscape change as a result of it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiendishoc wrote: | | I linked two articles which had numerous examples of players being inspired by Kobe's work ethic, like Blake and Durant. You had Artest saying that he's getting in extra workouts because of Kobe's example. Caron crediting him for taking his game to another level. Lebron and Melo were reported as emulating his training regimen to extend their careers. But if you want to keep interpreting all of it as Kobe having no effect on players' work ethic, go ahead if that gets you off. |
Ok, but the question was how did Kobe change the game, not, how did Kobe inspire other players. Are they the same? I don't think so.
Look, there is no doubt Kobe's well documented work ethic had a positive, mental effect on players. But the question was how did the NBA change so I presume we're looking for tangible impacts, no?
Again, while I don't doubt Kobe's leadership and work ethic having had a positive impact on players, it's impossible to know how much, if any of that translated in to actual oncourt play. Blake saw a sharp rise in PPG after that article from 18 to 24 PPG, how much of that is credited to Kobe? His FG% has declined since then -- how little or much of that, if any at all, is attributable to Kobe? Even if we could attribute 100% of all of the positive lifts in Blake's play to Kobe, how did that change the game of basketball?
I think in many cases, it is rarely one player that will effectively "change" the entire sport. Often times, it is a collection of players. For instance, I do think Kobe should get some credit for the rules changes on swing through moves. He may not have been the first to ever do it, but he was one of a few players who consistently utilized it in his favor to a point where the league felt the need to make an adjustment. And even if they eliminate hack-a-Shaq, I don't think Shaq should get 100% of the credit (or blame, haha) for that since had it stopped with him, they wouldn't have considered changing the rule. Only because it is also now being used on a number of other poor FT shooters is it being considered.
I'd be willing to bet that there are extremely few ways in which the sport as we knew it at the time, was forever changed entirely because of ANY single NBA player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P.K. wrote: |
KAJ didn't necessarily revolutionize anything like Wilt did, but he was the first of the truly skilled dominant bigmen instead of the two types that had pretty much existed before (athletic freaks like Wilt, or lumbering strong guys). KAJ also kind of revolutionized the idea of a passing bigman who got assists from the post rather than just throwing bailout passes out of the post |
I am not sure where you came up with this weird notion seeing as Wilt was more than just an athletic freak and is still the only center in NBA history to lead the league in assists (he posted two consecutive 7+ apg seasons before Kareem entered the NBA). I do not believe Kareem ever had anything more than 4 or 5 assists per game at his peak. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bryantest
Star Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 1037
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well all know that
a) Kobe doesn't have the sickest hops like Vince Carter
b) He doesn't have Durant's wingspan
c) doesn't have Rose' quickness
d) Doesn't have Lebron's strength
e) doesn't have MJ's hands
But he showed us that hardwork and dedication will always triumph over physical gifts anytime. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11239
Location: PTY
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think Kobe has changed the game. In fact it's hard for me to say many players have, aside from Wilt, Elgin and Dr. J. I think coaches are more responsible for affecting the way that the game is played, like Kerr is doing now, or how Riley did in the 80s. Players do however, play a big role in selling and popularizing the game. And few players have done that better than Kobe. Perhaps only MJ. He's like what Hendrix was to musicians. I bet he's inspired plenty of people to pick up a basketball and play. That is why half of the league's under-30 contingent claim he is their MJ. And I think that's invaluable.
Last edited by panamaniac on Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
