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gng930
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11475
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 Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | not so sure about this being racial, but cause by behavior differences. Russell Wilson is also black and i don't see media scrutinize him, maybe that's because he knows how to carry himself, be humble and low key. i think this has more to do than racial, but i agree there are definitely double standards involved with Cam just think it's not just racial. |
Russell Wilson is actually a great example to demonstrate the mechanics of the double standard.
Russell Wilson is an "acceptable" black athlete for white America. Loudmouth Cam, not so much.
"Blackness" isn't so much about skin pigmentation, it's about culture, fashion, behavior, and who you choose to associate with. |
So your problem is that people are judged based on the way they act and the company they keep?
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OregonLakerGuy
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Joined: 23 Feb 2005
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
Isn't this true of any group? With few exceptions, anyone speaking about a group to which they do not belong must be speaking from a position of ignorance. |
Unfamiliarity would actually be a better word for your point. Ignorance is a position of willful dismissiveness. That doesn't apply to most people. |
Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't think of a better word. I actually meant that in the strict sense of the word, simply not knowing or being unaware. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| OregonLakerGuy wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
Isn't this true of any group? With few exceptions, anyone speaking about a group to which they do not belong must be speaking from a position of ignorance. |
If you define ignorance as lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified, yes. Cultures are complicated.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
I don't know that viewpoint is particularly relevant to the topic under discussion. If the other poster is suggesting that black people are the arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person, that would be akin to suggesting that white people are the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist. |
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Lucky_Shot
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Joined: 10 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Forget about the drama and let's get this money!
I was defending Cam when people were attack him, but I hate when people start throwing around the race card.
Were all adults and we all have our own haters and our own path.
We all get to grow up in a country where you can literal become anything you want to be.
Most of the world isn't as lucky as us. |
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BadGuy
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Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3616
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
I don't know that viewpoint is particularly relevant to the topic under discussion. If the other poster is suggesting that black people are the arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person, that would be akin to suggesting that white people are the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist. |
Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). As an analogy, you wouldn't expect someone like Chris Paul to understand the wear and tear of the hack-a-whoever strategy as much as someone like Deandre Jordan.
Although your second point about "white people being the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist" being a natural extension from the above suggestion is a logical fallacy, the point itself is arguably true. If 90% of people in government/judicial/police positions in America are white, then, yes, you would expect them to be the arbiters of what constitutes racist actions (or any crime) by white people or anyone, for that matter. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). |
This sort of attitude lies at the heart of the conservative backlash in this country. Oh, yeah. Black people have a license to tell white people what is and is not racist. Good luck with that one.
People are going to make up their own minds about what is and is not racist. "I'm black, so I'm an expert on racism and victimization" may sound good in your head, but it's pretty much a non-starter for the other 85% or so of the population. |
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4stargeneralbulldog
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Joined: 26 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
I don't know that viewpoint is particularly relevant to the topic under discussion. If the other poster is suggesting that black people are the arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person, that would be akin to suggesting that white people are the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist. |
Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). As an analogy, you wouldn't expect someone like Chris Paul to understand the wear and tear of the hack-a-whoever strategy as much as someone like Deandre Jordan.
Although your second point about "white people being the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist" being a natural extension from the above suggestion is a logical fallacy, the point itself is arguably true. If 90% of people in government/judicial/police positions in America are white, then, yes, you would expect them to be the arbiters of what constitutes racist actions (or any crime) by white people or anyone, for that matter. |
@the bolded. What? And how do you gauge that? 
Reminds me of a top comment with many likes on an article where Floyd Mayweather blasts Conor McGregor about being popular because he's white. The top comment in that Mayweather article was about how black people have suffered the most in human history. It just gave me a chuckle, because one cannot measure that kind of stuff. I also think its very arrogant and myopic to say these kind of things. |
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Lucky_Shot
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Joined: 10 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). |
This sort of attitude lies at the heart of the conservative backlash in this country. Oh, yeah. Black people have a license to tell white people what is and is not racist. Good luck with that one.
People are going to make up their own minds about what is and is not racist. "I'm black, so I'm an expert on racism and victimization" may sound good in your head, but it's pretty much a non-starter for the other 85% or so of the population. |
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BadGuy
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Posts: 3616
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). |
This sort of attitude lies at the heart of the conservative backlash in this country. Oh, yeah. Black people have a license to tell white people what is and is not racist. Good luck with that one.
People are going to make up their own minds about what is and is not racist. "I'm black, so I'm an expert on racism and victimization" may sound good in your head, but it's pretty much a non-starter for the other 85% or so of the population. |
You bring up a good point that illustrates some of the racial tension in America. I am not any more sure of what the answer is to bridge this divide than anyone else. However, there will always be people who refuse to agree with anyone other than themselves or like minded individuals due to vested interests, arrogance, whatever the reason may be.
You wouldn't go to the Pope for questions about science, and whether Catholics agree about this or not is irrelevant. Just as in any field of study, you go to people with knowledge and experience to learn more about the subject.
If some people refuse or are unable to understand, it's okay. That is why we have a judicial system (albeit a flawed one). Someone can think they have a right to murder their neighbor, but, if they do, their ass is going to prison regardless of what they think . There were many conservatives in the south who nearly tore this country apart because they disagreed with the direction the country was moving in (e.g., the Civil War), but such radical individuals will be forced into compliance if they choose to remain willfully ignorant (just as terrorists are). |
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BadGuy
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Posts: 3616
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
I don't know that viewpoint is particularly relevant to the topic under discussion. If the other poster is suggesting that black people are the arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person, that would be akin to suggesting that white people are the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist. |
Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). As an analogy, you wouldn't expect someone like Chris Paul to understand the wear and tear of the hack-a-whoever strategy as much as someone like Deandre Jordan.
Although your second point about "white people being the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist" being a natural extension from the above suggestion is a logical fallacy, the point itself is arguably true. If 90% of people in government/judicial/police positions in America are white, then, yes, you would expect them to be the arbiters of what constitutes racist actions (or any crime) by white people or anyone, for that matter. |
@the bolded. What? And how do you gauge that?
Reminds me of a top comment with many likes on an article where Floyd Mayweather blasts Conor McGregor about being popular because he's white. The top comment in that Mayweather article was about how black people have suffered the most in human history. It just gave me a chuckle, because one cannot measure that kind of stuff. I also think its very arrogant and myopic to say these kind of things. |
If it is not obvious to you in America, especially given our history, you probably fall into the category that I mentioned earlier, and nothing I can say would ever convince you otherwise. It's okay to have a different viewpoint  . |
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Lucky_Shot
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Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 5140
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | R-Tistic wrote: | I'll never expect some of you to view these racial issues in the way that we do as Blacks, but wow.
Yeah, I'll just leave this alone. |
Same thing with Asian, Hispanic cultures. I don't think their views are understood because their cultures aren't, fully. |
I don't know that viewpoint is particularly relevant to the topic under discussion. If the other poster is suggesting that black people are the arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person, that would be akin to suggesting that white people are the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist. |
Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). As an analogy, you wouldn't expect someone like Chris Paul to understand the wear and tear of the hack-a-whoever strategy as much as someone like Deandre Jordan.
Although your second point about "white people being the arbiters of whether the actions of a white person are properly viewed as racist" being a natural extension from the above suggestion is a logical fallacy, the point itself is arguably true. If 90% of people in government/judicial/police positions in America are white, then, yes, you would expect them to be the arbiters of what constitutes racist actions (or any crime) by white people or anyone, for that matter. |
@the bolded. What? And how do you gauge that?
Reminds me of a top comment with many likes on an article where Floyd Mayweather blasts Conor McGregor about being popular because he's white. The top comment in that Mayweather article was about how black people have suffered the most in human history. It just gave me a chuckle, because one cannot measure that kind of stuff. I also think its very arrogant and myopic to say these kind of things. |
If it is not obvious to you in America, especially given our history, you probably fall into the category that I mentioned earlier, and nothing I can say would ever convince you otherwise. It's okay to have a different viewpoint . |
We all have our problems. Your thoughts create the world around you. If you think you have it harder than everyone, you will have it harder because of your attitude. If you view America as place with endless possibilities it will become one. No one here is a martyr were all people with highspeed internet.
Every race has a horrible history in this country. I can make an argument that Naive Americans and Mexicans have it worse than African Americans. Many Asian died building the rail roads. Today there is a lot hate towards white people.
Get over it and let's get dis money. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | You bring up a good point that illustrates some of the racial tension in America. I am not any more sure of what the answer is to bridge this divide than anyone else. However, there will always be people who refuse to agree with anyone other than themselves or like minded individuals due to vested interests, arrogance, whatever the reason may be.
You wouldn't go to the Pope for questions about science, and whether Catholics agree about this or not is irrelevant. Just as in any field of study, you go to people with knowledge and experience to learn more about the subject. |
That's a fair point, but it only goes so far. If you want to know about science, you go to a scientist. But if you want to know whether cigarettes cause cancer, you don't go to a scientist who works for a cigarette manufacturer. If you want to know whether something is racist, you don't go to people who are inclined to see racism in everything.
That's what we are talking about here. We aren't talking about what it is like to be black in America. We aren't talking about slavery or Jim Crow or segregation. We're talking about whether the media reaction to Cam Newton's actions was racist. Black people do not have some special insight into that issue.
You'll never hear me say that America is some sort of post-racial, colorblind society. However, when I see people arguing that the media is racist because it jumped on Cam Newton when he made a fool of himself, but did not jump on Peyton Manning as hard when he did something significantly different, I'm not impressed. If someone says that he is better able to judge the issue because he is black, my reaction is that predisposition is different from insight. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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@ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | @ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight? |
Not really. There are too many false positives. You know what I do for a living. It is way too easy to blame everything on racism or sexism or whatever. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | @ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight? |
Not really. There are too many false positives. You know what I do for a living. It is way too easy to blame everything on racism or sexism or whatever. |
I'm not asking blanket, I'm asking in general.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Actually, it's completely relevant. You don't have to view black people as the "arbiters of whether something is racist toward a black person" to realize that they probably experience racism more than other races (middle eastern cultures are coming close to sharing this experience nowadays), and, given their numerous experiences, black people are probably better equipped to speak on such issues than most other races (in general, of course). |
This sort of attitude lies at the heart of the conservative backlash in this country. Oh, yeah. Black people have a license to tell white people what is and is not racist. Good luck with that one.
People are going to make up their own minds about what is and is not racist. "I'm black, so I'm an expert on racism and victimization" may sound good in your head, but it's pretty much a non-starter for the other 85% or so of the population. |
To add to that, the "other side" only exacerbates the problem when they oversteer and call things racist just to further their own self image as a lover of all people rather than try to work at really understanding what racism is, and isn't. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | @ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight? |
Not really. There are too many false positives. You know what I do for a living. It is way too easy to blame everything on racism or sexism or whatever. |
I'm not asking blanket, I'm asking in general. |
I don't understand what you mean. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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LINK
I'm not versed on site credibility. If this article is true Jameis Winston comes to mind.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | @ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight? |
Not really. There are too many false positives. You know what I do for a living. It is way too easy to blame everything on racism or sexism or whatever. |
I'm not asking blanket, I'm asking in general. |
I don't understand what you mean. |
Leaving everything out of the equation, can you find a bridge connecting predisposition to insight?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | @ AH Given the history of racism in America do you give predisposition any merit? Can you find a correlation to it and insight? |
Not really. There are too many false positives. You know what I do for a living. It is way too easy to blame everything on racism or sexism or whatever. |
I'm not asking blanket, I'm asking in general. |
I don't understand what you mean. |
Leaving everything out of the equation, can you find a bridge connecting predisposition to insight? |
The two are pretty much antithetical. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I still don't understand. If we leave everything out of the equation, then there is no equation. If you mean that predisposition could be based on something that provides insight, I sort of see what you mean. However, I would be hesitant to equate sensitivity with insight. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I still don't understand. If we leave everything out of the equation, then there is no equation. If you mean that predisposition could be based on something that provides insight, I sort of see what you mean. However, I would be hesitant to equate sensitivity with insight. |
That's basically what I'm asking. Thanks for the back and forth.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I still remember when the media slammed Peyton after a playoff loss in
2006 saying he threw his offensive line under the bus because Manning said they had protection problems. And it was the media who kept pushing him on that issue and were trying to get him to criticize his teammates. When he finally said they has protection problems, suddenly the criticism was "He is not a good leader and is all about himself! Look at how he threw his teammates under the bus!"
I've heard Manning called a choker for over a decade and it's a label that would stick really well with him until maybe the last few days. The article is wrong when it suggests that no criticism would stick to him because that one certainly did.
I think Cam was doing stuff before the Super Bowl that was getting people annoyed and maybe some of those people just disliked him already and are still kind of reacting to that. Personally, I didn't have a problem with his celebrating and statements he made before the Super Bowl.
One thing the article ignores is that people are really upset he didn't dive for that loose football with the game on the line. That's a major reason he is taking heat right now. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| K28 wrote: | I don't need this additional data point to verify the existence of the double standard.
I didn't know that Bill Romanowski called him "boy" though. That's pretty racist. But it's also Bill Romanowski.
Another interesting question, if Cam was suspected of using HGH, would the media care?
I think they would. |
I saw a Patriots fan say the same exact thing about Tom Brady. He was really upset that deflategate was such a major issue and the HGH issue isn't nearly as big of a deal with Manning.
In other words, (and now I'm remembering an article that was talking about it), there was a clear suggestion that Brady would take a ton of heat from the media if he was suspected of HGH use.
Last edited by Steve007 on Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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