One More Scorer or Better Role Players?
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Walter Sobchak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: One More Scorer or Better Role Players?

If everything else stayed the same (defense, rebounding, etc) I'm just curious, do you think the Lakers would be more successful if they could add one more player to the team who would be a consistent scorer, like a 20 ppg guy; or do you think they'd be better if they just had better roleplayers who could consistently shoot in the mid to high 40% range from the field? If you can't have both, which is more important?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject:

I'd rather have another consistent scorer. I think our role players are fine - we're just asking them to do a lot more than role players should be doing.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject:

We would look really good right now if we had not got McKie and had paid Sprewell his $5 million. He definetly would be better than what we have right now.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject:

Although we need better role players, we need a 2nd scorer even more.
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tgf5
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject:

Depends on the roleplayers. Really what roleplayers can we get? The roleplayer we need is a shooter who can hit open shots. But if we get a scorer its the same thing. But with a scorer you can spread the defense and have another threat other than Kobe. Better to get a scorer with our roster.
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Walter Sobchak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject:

My main concern with any 20 ppg scorer that we could get (Pierce, Francis, etc...) would be that they wouldn't do much else and that they'd either take too many shots or be pissed at Kobe if they weren't able to take very many. I think if the Lakers get another scorer it should be someone who is a very efficient scorer (aka a big man) rather than another guard/SF who takes upwards of 20 shots a game. The Lakers definitely need pure shooters that Kobe can pass out of the double-teams to who can hit their open shots, but spot up shooters normally are not scorers. I think a 20 ppg guard-type scorer would definitely make the Lakers better than they are, but I don't think that's going to be the long-term solution that will help the Lakers win a title.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject:

All of the above
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NOODLESTYLE
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject:

We need a defensive stopper. I think Theo Ratliff would look real good in a Lakers uniform right now or even Jamal Magloire.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject:

NOODLESTYLE wrote:
We need a defensive stopper. I think Theo Ratliff would look real good in a Lakers uniform right now or even Jamal Magloire.


A big NO to Ratliff. Maybe 5 years ago, but his best days are definitely behind him, he was a great weakside shotblocker but never a "stopper", plus he can't rebound and is injured all the time.

Magloire woulda been solid, but expensive. He woulda been a nice anchor though...
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Walter Sobchak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject:

Ratliff would be expensive too, he's making $11.7 mil a year through the summer of 2008.

Actually I think our defense in the frontcourt is not going to be a problem in the coming years. Despite the trashing Lamar and Kwame get here they're both pretty good defenders. Lamar has trouble guarding smaller, quicker players, but he's a great post defender, especially against those smaller, quicker guys, and of course he can switch off and guard power forwards. Kwame also is a great post defender, and is pretty good at playing the pick and roll. Mihm is ok although the refs love to call him for anything and everything, but I think Bynum is really going to be a defensive force at the very least (if he doesn't develop offensively) for the Lakers in the coming seasons.

LA does need a defensive stopper, but they need one who is smaller and faster and is more of a perimeter defender. Smush and Devean George both have the ability to be these kinds of players, but Devean's probably in his last year and Smush's attitude and approach to the game is still very much in doubt. Artest would have been perfect here because he's such a great defender and because he's a scorer without being selfish or having any desire to be the top scorer on the team. He also is an above average outside shooter, which the Lakers badly need; but then again he's a headcase so maybe LA's better off without him. Only time will tell I guess.

I don't really think there's any one guy out there that's realistically available for the Lakers who can make that big of a difference, and think it really will be a more thought out, slower process of just adding better role players. They really need some luck though, a diamond in the rough type player. It's what made the Bulls the team they were in the 90's (Pippen was that guy for them), and it's what made the Lakers what they were a couple years ago (Kobe was that guy). I'm hoping Bynum or Turiaf will develop into the solid frontcourt presence the Lakers so badly need, because Mihm and Kwame would be fine in the lineup if they were there as the secondary concerns for the other team defensively.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject:

THe person talking about Pierce and Francis is right. A creator like that would be too much for the Triangle offense. What we need is a guy who can score 20+ points per game by simply knocking down open jumpshots. Some that I can think of:
Rashard Lewis
Joe Johnson
Mike Bibby
Chauncey Billups
Shawn Marion
Peja Stojakavic
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject:

dynasty4kobe wrote:
THe person talking about Pierce and Francis is right. A creator like that would be too much for the Triangle offense. What we need is a guy who can score 20+ points per game by simply knocking down open jumpshots. Some that I can think of:
Rashard Lewis
Joe Johnson
Mike Bibby
Chauncey Billups
Shawn Marion
Peja Stojakavic

Maybe maybe not on peja, but we should trade LO for any of these guys...........YESTERDAY!!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Offensively:

1. Go to post option player. We can only hope that is Bynum. Mihm is a smidge soft in the paint and doesn't have great decision-making skills at the low block. Same goes for Kwame.

2. Perimeter shooter. Alongside a post option player and an elite slasher in Bryant, this player should ideally be a 3rd option player that compliments Bryant and the post player.

3. A true PG. While the true PG can be a perimeter shooter/3rd otion threat, the Lakers lack the intangibles on offense to keep continuity going. It's becoming too predictable where Bryant will break the triangle and warrant a high pick and roll situation to get his points. The point guard MUStT control tempo... similar to the way Chris Paul does... under control in mid transition, keeps teammates running the floor with ball distribution, solid defense, poise, poise, poise.

Defensively:

1. Elite perimeter defensive anchor outside of Bryant. Bryant excels as a rover as well as a man-defender, but the energy expenditure is too great. Wonder why Detroit and San Antonio play high levels of defense with energy? Excellent shot distribution between all players on the floor. Rest on offense, not defense.

2. Man-post defender. While Kwame is underrated at his position, he does a poor job of rotating on help defense to close out lanes to penetrating guards and forwards. I simply don't understand the philosophy. I understand it if you're defending Shaq, but no guard should be allowed layups.

3. Consistent shotblocking presence. Mihm surprises, but by far, Bynum does the best job of recognizing when help is needed and how to rotate. His man-defense needs work and he needs to stop being foul prone, but that'll come with experience.

4. PG defender. It shouldn't be Bryant. Sasha has the desire but not the physical abilities. Parker has the physical abilities, but not the fundamentals. Parker could be a stud, but it's a lot to ask of a PG to be a 3rd scoring option, offer the intangibles listed offensively, and provide solid defense. Chris Duhon fits the role well. The footwork, shot selection, strength, and fundamentals are there both ends of the floor. Sasha? ...

Players that fit these abilities include Chris Duhon, Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw, Bruce Bowen, Romain Sato, Mickael Pietrus, Darko Milicic, etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject:

We definitely need another scorer to help kobe!!!
We need someone can hit the open jumpshots, becuase Kobe is going to get double or triple team every night right!!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject:

Darko? For real? If he is a true 2-way post option, why have both Brown and Saunders not played him?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject:

Darko isn't polished, but for heaven sakes, he can block shots and catch.

As for Flip, this is the J O'Neal syndrome. Sheed, Ben, and McDyess in front of the kid.

Better yet, imagine Kareem working with the kid.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject:

Mike,

a quick question: i like your list of guys who you think could help, but who is romain sato? i've heard the name on this board before.

thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject:

2nd round pick of San Antonio. Not on anyone's roster.

Out of Xavier was the 2nd option player behind David West and ahead of Lionel Chalmers.

6'2"+
6'11" wingspan
Athletic.
Defensive accolades at the NCAA level excellent man-defense.
Averaged over 7rebs a game despite being 6'2".

Average jumpshot.
Below average ball-handler.
Stud defender.
Solid rebounder.

He's the guy to mold into a Bowen type. It took Bruce and other players YEARS to become stud defensive players. Unlike Devin Green, he can shoot a bit along the perimeter. More athletic than Green as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Walter Sobchak wrote:
Lamar has trouble guarding smaller, quicker players, but he's a great post defender....



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject:

jmac78 wrote:
Darko? For real? If he is a true 2-way post option, why have both Brown and Saunders not played him?

Cause the Pistons are playing for titles. Ugly cycle. Games are too important to give him experience. Lack of experience means no PT. It's a nice problem to have. Think the Lakers would take it right now.

Personally, I think that Milicic could be had for George and some draft picks. They desperately need to free up cap space to keep Ben.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject:

We need another scorer.

I would not be appossed to a George, Kwame, 2 1st, cash for Francis

Next year

Francis/Mckie/Smush
Sasha/Smush/Wafer
Kobe/Walton(few minutes behind Kobe )
Odom/Turiaf/Cook
Mihm/Bynum

Francis-16/6/6
Sasha-8/4/4
Kobe-32/8/4/
Odom-12/14/6
Mihm/12/7/1

20+ ppg from Smush,Bynum,Cook,Walton and I think we could do well in the playoffs. Just get 81 to the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject:

Walter Sobchak wrote:
My main concern with any 20 ppg scorer that we could get (Pierce, Francis, etc...) would be that they wouldn't do much else and that they'd either take too many shots or be pissed at Kobe if they weren't able to take very many. I think if the Lakers get another scorer it should be someone who is a very efficient scorer (aka a big man) rather than another guard/SF who takes upwards of 20 shots a game. The Lakers definitely need pure shooters that Kobe can pass out of the double-teams to who can hit their open shots, but spot up shooters normally are not scorers. I think a 20 ppg guard-type scorer would definitely make the Lakers better than they are, but I don't think that's going to be the long-term solution that will help the Lakers win a title.


Honestly, do you really know what type of player Steve Francis is? I ask that because you mentioned his name along with the following comments:

Quote:
My main concern with any 20 ppg scorer that we could get (Pierce, Francis, etc...) would be that they wouldn't do much else and that they'd either take too many shots or be pissed at Kobe if they weren't able to take very many.


Do you know that, in addition to scoring 20 ppg, Steve Francis averages about 6.1 rpg, 6.5 apg, and 1.6 spg for his career? Does that qualify as "not much else" to you?

As for Francis being "pissed at Kobe," his time spent with Cutino Mobley might lead one to believe that he'd have no trouble sharing the ball.

Here's another comment:

Quote:
I think if the Lakers get another scorer it should be someone who is a very efficient scorer (aka a big man) rather than another guard/SF who takes upwards of 20 shots a game.


Though I agree with you that it'd be preferable to acquire some low post scoring help, your comment about about "another guard/SF" taking upwards of 20 shots would seem to suggest that you still have Francis in your mind.

Why?

Last season saw Francis set a career high for shot attempts per game at 17. And this was when he was the clear #1 scoring option. It also saw his career high in assists per game at 7. For his career, Francis has averaged less than 16 shot attempts per game. Most folks on this board would love to see Lamar Odom take that many attempts. With regard to Francis, how did you get from the facts to "another guard/SF who takes upwards of 20 shots a game?"

Or did you even know the facts to begin with?
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tony smith
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
2nd round pick of San Antonio. Not on anyone's roster.

Out of Xavier was the 2nd option player behind David West and ahead of Lionel Chalmers.

6'2"+
6'11" wingspan
Athletic.
Defensive accolades at the NCAA level excellent man-defense.
Averaged over 7rebs a game despite being 6'2".

Average jumpshot.
Below average ball-handler.
Stud defender.
Solid rebounder.

He's the guy to mold into a Bowen type. It took Bruce and other players YEARS to become stud defensive players. Unlike Devin Green, he can shoot a bit along the perimeter. More athletic than Green as well.


thanks mike. sounds like a good guy to pick up and cultivate. especially with the long term plans, he could turn out to be a gem just when we'll really need him.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject:

A consistent 40% + shooter. There's plenty of times that Kobe is doubled and tripled, and he can even find the open man. The problem occurs when our open guys either choose not to take the open shot, choose to look down to make sure they're behidn the the 3 point line before launching one up (one of the most frustrating things to watch I might add), or just brick the open shot.

I know role players aren't expected to hit on a near perfect basis, but 40% isn't asking too much. With all the open shots the person would get, he'd end up becoming a 15 ppg scorer just from Kobe drawing the defenses to him.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject:

This thread gives me the opportunity to explicate what I said, before, in another thread... I feel that, for too long, we have chosen players that fit a broad category, like "shooter", or "role-player"... We may not be looking deep enough... Perhaps, we should be looking for specific aspects, and skills, that a player brings...

At the present time, I feel we should be looking for the elements of leadership, combined with terrific ballhandling skills. We need an on-court general that can instigate the offense, make intelligent decisions, and keep the team playing together.

In the future, we should strive to build a strong foundation, based on various elements that we need, such as consistency, intensity, and ability to play with teammates.
The elements, and character, of each player, should fit together, with other teammates...

Along with this, we should fill our various needs, such as
rebounding ability, and defensive skills.

We need to look for players with inner character, that fit together, and provide a sense of cohesiveness to the team. These are the things we should focus on. This is the general concept that is most important... A quality product is made up of quality ingredients. We can't just lump players together, just because they meet a generalized category, like "shooter", or "role-player". I think we're seeing the fallacy of that.
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