My overly-positive take on Phil's pressure defense

 
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DicksHutnick
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: My overly-positive take on Phil's pressure defense

Part of this current skid is the Lakers' absolute refusal to abandon the pressure defense that isn't working and winds up putting the Lakers down 8-10 points almost every first half.

I was wondering at what point Phil Jackson had lost his mind when it suddenly occured to me -- we've got a 'big picture' coach in Jackson, much like Pete Carroll at USC. He knows this team has the length and speed to be deadly at the press, but nothing can prepare a team to press like actual in-game situations. Practice only goes so far.

He knows he's going to need a ridiculous press in order for this team to play the defense it needs to. They've become pretty good in the halfcourt when the other team isn't running and attacking, and now Phil is MAKING them stick with the press, even at the cost of losing some games.

Sounds ridiculous, right?

Anyone remember the 1998 game at Chicago? Shaq, Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones were killing the Bulls. The Lakers lead by almost 30 at one point and by 19 going into the fourth. The Bulls started pressing and, despite having an all-star true point in Van Exel, the Lakers couldn't beat the press and the Bulls easily overcame the lead even against a team with Shaq on it.

6'4" Smush, 6'7" Sasha, 6'7" Kobe, 6'10" Lamar, 6'5" McKie (I still think he'll make an impact), 6'8" George -- all with decent-to-good footspeed. This will be a killer pressing team in the future.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject:

yeah, i love it. We went on a 7-0 run to end the 1st quarter i think against the Hornets
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject:

dwonderful wrote:
yeah, i love it. We went on a 7-0 run to end the 1st quarter i think against the Hornets


yep then he took bynum out
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject:

You need to post more often DH. Interesting (and level-headed) take.

You remind us, during a time when we really need to be reminded, that Phil has always been a BIG picture type thinker. People tend to forget that Phil's early Bulls days started out similar. In fact, if I can dig up my old signature Phil makes the exact comparison to the Lakers and the his early years with the Bulls.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject:

JD wrote:
You need to post more often DH. Interesting (and level-headed) take.

You remind us, during a time when we really need to be reminded, that Phil has always been a BIG picture type thinker. People tend to forget that Phil's early Bulls days started out similar. In fact, if I can dig up my old signature Phil makes the exact comparison to the Lakers and the his early years with the Bulls.

I remember PJ saying that. Its been a while though. I'd love to read where PJ was calling out the GM for having lack of talent in his early years with the Bulls, ala "the Onus is on the GM" to supply the talent.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My overly-positive take on Phil's pressure defense

DicksHutnick wrote:
Part of this current skid is the Lakers' absolute refusal to abandon the pressure defense that isn't working and winds up putting the Lakers down 8-10 points almost every first half.

I was wondering at what point Phil Jackson had lost his mind when it suddenly occured to me -- we've got a 'big picture' coach in Jackson, much like Pete Carroll at USC. He knows this team has the length and speed to be deadly at the press, but nothing can prepare a team to press like actual in-game situations. Practice only goes so far.

He knows he's going to need a ridiculous press in order for this team to play the defense it needs to. They've become pretty good in the halfcourt when the other team isn't running and attacking, and now Phil is MAKING them stick with the press, even at the cost of losing some games.

Sounds ridiculous, right?

Anyone remember the 1998 game at Chicago? Shaq, Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones were killing the Bulls. The Lakers lead by almost 30 at one point and by 19 going into the fourth. The Bulls started pressing and, despite having an all-star true point in Van Exel, the Lakers couldn't beat the press and the Bulls easily overcame the lead even against a team with Shaq on it.

6'4" Smush, 6'7" Sasha, 6'7" Kobe, 6'10" Lamar, 6'5" McKie (I still think he'll make an impact), 6'8" George -- all with decent-to-good footspeed. This will be a killer pressing team in the future.

thats sounds about right, when speakin on phil. thats why he's always smiling like that. as if he knows something we dont. he's definitely uses these games as practice for the guys.

but i will say this, the only reason that press worked on the lakers with nick, etc, etc on the team, is because we didn't use nick to break the press. remember jerome kersey? we gave this guy the ball to break the press. when have you ever seen kersey dribble without it looking like it hurt him to do so? never. so why use him to break the press? Horrible coaching that night. i mean horrible.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: My overly-positive take on Phil's pressure defense

postandpivot wrote:

thats sounds about right, when speakin on phil. thats why he's always smiling like that. as if he knows something we dont.


Bingo. I'll be about ready to lob a beer at the TV on opponent layup #1098 and suddenly they'll show Phil with that weird grin. Really makes you think he's up to something.
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but i will say this, the only reason that press worked on the lakers with nick, etc, etc on the team, is because we didn't use nick to break the press. remember jerome kersey? we gave this guy the ball to break the press. when have you ever seen kersey dribble without it looking like it hurt him to do so? never. so why use him to break the press? Horrible coaching that night. i mean horrible.


That's the entire point. Each time we'd give the ball to Nick (6'1"), the Bulls would send Randy Brown (6'4") and Scottie Pippen (long 6'7") to get the ball away from him. Ball goes to Kersey. Beer goes to TV.

The Lakers aren't good enough at the press yet to get the ball away from the press breakers, but hopefully soon we'll start seeing PJ Brown trying to bring the ball up the court and make decisions.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject:

JD wrote:
You need to post more often DH. Interesting (and level-headed) take.

You remind us, during a time when we really need to be reminded, that Phil has always been a BIG picture type thinker. People tend to forget that Phil's early Bulls days started out similar. In fact, if I can dig up my old signature Phil makes the exact comparison to the Lakers and the his early years with the Bulls.


I remember that quote very well. I was also a freshman at USC in 2001 when Carroll was hired and I remember that first season when everyone was calling for his head after five games - but (and not to take too much credit) I could already see that he wasn't settling for gimmicks on defense, he was trying to man up and build a powerhouse. Sure enough, his vision came true. Phil Jackson CLEARLY has a vision for these guys. Why else would he come back? I'm not even depending on a huge free agent coming -- Phil can train a team around Kobe and young bigs can grow.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject:

bounty wrote:
I'd love to read where PJ was calling out the GM for having lack of talent in his early years with the Bulls, ala "the Onus is on the GM" to supply the talent.


Don't worry, Phil had plenty of barbs for "Crumbs" Krause in Chicago as well.

Back to the pressure D, I agree with the OP, I think it's something that a young team with a capable second unit should employ a lot more. I vividly remember that game the OP was talking about, when the Bulls came back on the Lakers in one of the greatest displays of team defense I've ever seen to tie it and send it into OT where they won. I think the trapping pressure D is an often overlooked part of the Raptors game where Kobe scored 81. Kobe's scoring really jumpstarted the team, and even though they weren't stepping up on offense (Kobe was taking and making all the shots), they were really hounding the Raptors all over the floor on D in that second half. That turned the game around as much as Kobe's scoring did.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: My overly-positive take on Phil's pressure defense

DicksHutnick wrote:
postandpivot wrote:

thats sounds about right, when speakin on phil. thats why he's always smiling like that. as if he knows something we dont.


Bingo. I'll be about ready to lob a beer at the TV on opponent layup #1098 and suddenly they'll show Phil with that weird grin. Really makes you think he's up to something.
Quote:

but i will say this, the only reason that press worked on the lakers with nick, etc, etc on the team, is because we didn't use nick to break the press. remember jerome kersey? we gave this guy the ball to break the press. when have you ever seen kersey dribble without it looking like it hurt him to do so? never. so why use him to break the press? Horrible coaching that night. i mean horrible.


That's the entire point. Each time we'd give the ball to Nick (6'1"), the Bulls would send Randy Brown (6'4") and Scottie Pippen (long 6'7") to get the ball away from him. Ball goes to Kersey. Beer goes to TV.

The Lakers aren't good enough at the press yet to get the ball away from the press breakers, but hopefully soon we'll start seeing PJ Brown trying to bring the ball up the court and make decisions.


well true, the lakers aren't good enough from a "know how/chemistry" perspective. basketball is basketball at any level. the nuances are different, the speed and size is different, but its all relative. that being said. me and my boys use to run a MEAN press. when i say mean. all jokes aside, it was like a mix between, old kentucky/Detroit Pistons/old bulls/ / whoever you could think of that runs a tight press. the difference i see in this team and lets say me and my boys back in the good ole days. is that there's a man missing. when they run the press. they have 2 guys back to protect the basket. problem with this is that. their still not protecting the basket. So you might as well abandon one of those guys. that means leave one of those guys to be the THIEF. when the pass gets in the hands of the wrong guy. the wrong guy is either going to try and rush dribble across. or pass it to the PG. if you close out on the pg in time there's a release man wide open at the halfcourt line. always is. if you the other coach knows what he's doing. now this is where the lakers lack in their press. they need to have one of those back guys, run up the moment the he sees the passer starting his motion to pass. He starts moving towards where we all know the ball is going. this is a steal waiting to happen. I promise you.

the lakers play press de how they play halfcourt de. as individuals, with their own thoughts on what should happen. and this is why we get burned by the pick n roll, then swing it around... WOP for threeee. or open 12 footer. and we look like fools chasin everthing. this is what happens when you as a team. dont understand your teammates and where everyone is supposed to be, also where in reality everyone will be.

for instance. Smush parker is a thief, but the manner in which he gambles he needs someone else to come and deter the pg from running the opposite direction that smush is shading towards. smush rarely guards guys straight up. which works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't.

Sasha, also goes for steals, but in a different manner. with sasha's length and his pressure on the ball handler all the way up the court, he could force a guard to the corner. but so what if we're not smart enough to have a guy on his way, running in the passing lane coming to shut that drive land off as well. these little nuances of LOCKDOWN DEFENSE. is something that we dont have. It happened during that kobe 81 show and the comeback we put on toronto. thats why Smush was so proud of himself and the team for putting together a Lockdown defensive effort. its a beautiful thing when you can get on the same page as your team. when playing defense. you would put extreme fear in the other team. i mean extreme. i dont care who you are playing. next thing you know they're arguing amongst each other. and thats exactly what you want. "pass the .... ball. stop trying to dribble man, pass the ball... you shut the.... up and come get the ball....".

and by the way, if by chance they do break the press, it doesnt have to equal a layup if everyone plays their role correctly. its ways you can position yourself for a lofty pass, so you can steal it. but also so you can pick and choose if its worth going after or should you stay back be in front of the guy once he receives it, then send another man. to see how good that guys passing skills are. besides, some guys you need to trap and some guys you dont want to pass the ball off. I'm not going to trap pal gasol 60 feet away from the hoop. but whoever is guarding him, should try to rip him if big pal is dribbling. the moment that defender takes a good swipe at the ball, pal will pick it up and try to make a quick pass before its to late. thats a teal waiting to happen. most big men are not good passers.(c.webb, b.miller, maybe 1 or 2 others thats about it).

guys who i wouldn't press, but i would have a guy face guarding him then bring another guy over to make him give it up. not for the purpose of trying to steal it from him. steve nash, make him pass it to diaw, and lets see how bad diaw really wants to score. he wants to pass more then score. therefore he will pull a luke walton sooner then later. thats just the guys personality. that doesn't change over night. so take advantage of it. thats just one for example. but that also means WE not just kobe, has to watch serious tape on guys so they know their tendencies. knowing another guys tendencies can make your life as a defender so much easier.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject:

I like the potential of the trapping D. We need to work on it, but when they become proficient at it it can be a very good weapon. At the very least, a trap/press can take time off the shot clock, leaving the other team less time to go through their halfcourt options, leading to bad shots, and more rebounds. But if you're good at it, it leads to turnovers and extra fastbreak opportunites, which can suddenly change the momentum of a game.

I've seen a couple games of the showtime Lakers using a halfcourt press/trap in the Finals, and it was really effective. I think there was one game in the 1982 championship series where the Lakers were down 15 to Philly, then they put on the trap, and went on something like a 40-9 run and won going away. A press/trap, when used selectively, can be a dangerous weapon for a running, up-tempo team.

About Phil "seeing the big picture", I remember Lionel the Laker saying right after PJ resigned that he has a blueprint for this team, and he wants them to be like the early 90s Bulls (first 3-peat). That team was pretty dangerous in the open court when they forced turnovers and the game opened up, and IIRC they used to trap after made baskets and free throws. I think Phil's plan is for us to be an up-tempo team that does it with our defense, while also being a good halfcourt team with the triangle. It's a lot harder to be a running team than a halfcourt team though, so this is going to take a while.

We're getting burned on it right now because we're not good at retreating when the other team breaks the press. Maybe we should keep our PF and C at the other end and use the other 3 guys for the press, so that it won't become an open court situation when the press gets broken. We also have to be selective with the press. You can't press for 48 minutes in the NBA, and if you pick and choose when to press, you can confuse the other team and get them on their heels.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Finally something positive. I completely agree, I think he's had a vision from day one. He said at his press conference its going to take a few years to get back to the top, but he saw the potential. The potential reminded him of the bulls once they got rodman. I think he's setting up the team to have everything in place, so when we sign a free agent, we'll be able to dominate. He wanted to bring aggresive defense and the only way to get better at defense is to play it. So what if takes them a while to get it and we loose right now, the end result is all that matters.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Same press but unfortunately, far less quality in the pressing players. Bulls pressed with Harper and Pippen, Lakers press with Smush and Sasha with Odom thrown in. None of them compare to Harper-Pippen. For the front court, Bulls had MJ & Rodman waiting for players who got past the Press- Lakers have Kobe-Kwame with Odom thrown in. Kobe may=MJ but Odom, Kwame<<<<<<<<<<<Rodmanand in the later years, Oakley
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