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lakersfan8
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 Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Luke was brought in for player development so I think he is doing fine.
This team has the potential to win more games than we currently have. For example, I don't think Luke knows how to use Brook Lopez. Lopez is not Hibbert or Mozgov. Hibbert showed signs of regression before being traded to the Lakers and Mozgov was never that much of an impact player. I just don't think a player who was average about 20 points per game would suddenly regress so much at the age of 29. If a player can't fit into the team, it is the player's and the coach's fault. So for that, I blame Luke. However, should Luke spend more time figuring a solution how to make a one-year rental player fit into the team or finding ways to develop young players to reach their potential?I will choose player development over winning more games at our stage. |
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3baller
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Joined: 28 Oct 2017
Posts: 992
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I rarely started the best player at every position. |
Doesn’t really add much weight to your argument now does it?
Let’s pro con this shall we.
Pros
1.) Winning. Here are the facts:
Ball - KCP - Ingram - Nance - Lopez
Off rating: 95.9
Def rating: 104.2
Mins played: 208
Net rating: -8.4
Win/Loss - 5/11
Ball - KCP - Ingram - Kuz - Lopez
Off rating: 100
Def rating: 101.7
Mins played: 223
Net rating: -1.8
Win/loss - 5/6
As evidenced by facts and not by biased eye tests of Luke Walton bootlickers, Kuz in the starting lineup is simply better offensively and even defensively than with Nance in it. The two lineups have played almost the same total minutes now so the numbers should be fairly accurate and comparable.
Some people might say that we faced better teams when Nance started. Well, Zo and Ingram have both been playing way better the past few games. Plus Kuz was never incorporated well into that starting lineup. He sure as hell didn’t practice and scrimmage with the starters until he got the job temporarily. If he actually gets the job and practices with those guys for an extended amount of time and be more accustomed to his role then we could have even better results out of that lineup.
2.) Development. Zo, Bi and Kuz are the future of this franchise. The sooner they build chemistry, learn each other’s tendencies and overall enjoy playing together - the better it would be for the team’s future.
We already wasted the opportunity to continue and develop the Zo-Kuz connection from SL. Let’s not double down and continue featuring Larry Nance Jr when we can develop the Zo-BI-Kuz connection now.
3.) More balanced lineups.
Can someone explain to me the logic of playing not 1, not 2 but 3 of our best scorers off the bench? We have 3 out of 5 of our higher usage guys sharing the ball in limited minutes off the bench while 3 relatively passive and lower usage guys are just dumping the ball to ISO Ingram and post up Lopez in the starting lineup.
But Nance is a better rebounder
We have a higher rebound% with Kuz in the lineup 50.4 to 48.5 so that narrative isn’t going to fly.
Cons
1.) Errmmm you don’t start your best players duuuhhh
2.) Nance does the little things bruh. Kuz can only do the big things. We all know little > big
3.) Kuz is a ball hog. Larry has a 7.8 assist% bruh!(Kuz is at 7.5) And he has low usage giving Ingram more chances to score(he would have a higher usage if he didn’t have to pass up open looks in the perimeter and he also clogs the lane for BI and also allows the defense to pack the paint) |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are.
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are. |
Luke was right about his jabs at Nance at practice earlier this season. He said why are you practicing threes when you know you're not going to take them. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are. |
What's left to develop? His jumper is pretty much all. He still after about 4 off-seasons or so is hesitant to shoot it. His off the dribble game hasn't improved. He isn't a guy you can rely on leading a fast break outside of Summer League.
I think at this point, Nance is who he is.
Our numbers aren't better when he starts.
They are better when Randle or Kuzma plays the 4 next to Lopez, but not Nance.
At this point in comes down to favoritism. That's why Nance atarts. Not cause it makes sense or because it's beat for the team but strictly cause Luke favors him.
Luke has as big a crush on Nance as Scott did on Ronnie Price.
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socalsp3
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Posts: 3502
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| This is what LNJ is. Hustle bench guy with limited offense and above average defense. He was 4 year college guy and has been in the league 3 years. Hes not getting much better than what he is. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| socalsp3 wrote: | | This is what LNJ is. Hustle bench guy with limited offense and above average defense. He was 4 year college guy and has been in the league 3 years. Hes not getting much better than what he is. |
this
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:28 am Post subject: |
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@3Baller: I do think Kuzma deserves to start but I also think you are underestimating the balance issue. They need to avoid that Nance/Randle pairing, it doesn't work because there is no spacing. You have to either have one of Kuzma or Lopez on the floor with one of Nance and Randle.
If we are going to bench Nance the two lineups that don't give you two non-shooters on the bench are:
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Randle/Lopez: +2.3 in 3.2 minutes per game (+0.71/min)
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: +1.5 in 4.1 minutes per game (+0.37/min)
Those keep a shooter on the floor for spacing at all times and have both been effective but not used nearly enough.
Two man lineups this year of the big man combinations:
Randle/Lopez: +2 in 2.7 minutes per game (9 games) (+0.74/min)
Kuzma/Randle: Even in 16.4 minutes (26 games) (Even)
Kuzma/Lopez: -0.7 in 12.7 minutes (23 games) (-0.06/min)
Nance/Lopez: -1.6 in 18.2 minutes (16 games) (-0.09/min)
Nance/Randle: -1.3 in 3.3 minutes (7 games) (-0.39.min)
Kuzma/Nance: -2.8 in 3.4 minutes (11 games) (-0.82/min) |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | socalsp3 wrote: | | This is what LNJ is. Hustle bench guy with limited offense and above average defense. He was 4 year college guy and has been in the league 3 years. Hes not getting much better than what he is. |
this |
True but also, he was playing really well before going down with injury. Really efficient averaging 11ppg with good defense. He's a really good role player when he's on, I just prefer Randle and Kuzma's fit with the starters
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AC Green's V-Card
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Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | socalsp3 wrote: | | Luke doesn’t know how to develop young players. This isnt a play off team. kuz should be allowed to test his limits and continue to grow. luke is is just instilling doubt instead of confidence in his rookies. |
I don't know how you can say Luke doesn't know how to develop players when Lonzo/Kuzma are on track to make 1st Team All Rookie, Ingram has improved every month of his career, and Randle is playing his best ball ever so far. Not to mention Hart made his first ever start tonight and logged a double-double.
Our young players are coming along nicely, but they're still not good enough to beat veteran playoff teams, let alone championship caliber ones on the road. Don't let your hatred for Luke blind you to the good things he's accomplished thus far. |
Luke has about as much to do with the development of Lonzo and Kuzma as Sam Mitchell did with Karl Anthony Towns or Byron Scott did with Chris Paul and Kyrie. |
So a rookie point guard who seldom ran PnR in college and was thought to be a defensive liability coming in is excelling at both. And Luke doesn't get any credit for that? |
Except Lonzo was effective out of the pick and roll when he ran it in college and he wasn't considered a defensive liability, particularly as his numbers defensively were really good.
So again, you're embellishing. |
You chopped my post and once again ignored my points about BI, Randle, and Hart. So convenient that you attribute everything negative as Luke's fault and ignore the positives as something he had no hand in. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12673
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | True but also, he was playing really well before going down with injury. Really efficient averaging 11ppg with good defense. He's a really good role player when he's on, I just prefer Randle and Kuzma's fit with the starters |
He's really having a career year across the board. Problem is that Randle has also improved, and Kuzma has been unexpectedly good. But I do hate when people use those two things as a reason to tear Larry down. He certainly is limited offensively, but he's posting career highs in points, rebounds, steals, and field goal percentage. I'd rather see Kuzma and Randle getting more minutes than him, but I'm happy with how Nance has played. |
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greenfrog
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Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are. |
What's left to develop? His jumper is pretty much all. He still after about 4 off-seasons or so is hesitant to shoot it. His off the dribble game hasn't improved. He isn't a guy you can rely on leading a fast break outside of Summer League.
I think at this point, Nance is who he is.
Our numbers aren't better when he starts.
They are better when Randle or Kuzma plays the 4 next to Lopez, but not Nance.
At this point in comes down to favoritism. That's why Nance atarts. Not cause it makes sense or because it's beat for the team but strictly cause Luke favors him.
Luke has as big a crush on Nance as Scott did on Ronnie Price. |
He literally just led two fastbreaks in one quarter the last game.
I love how you keep defaulting to NetRTG in these dishonest thought-vomitings, too. Where was this fascination with +/- last season? I guess Randle was a favorite... |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | True but also, he was playing really well before going down with injury. Really efficient averaging 11ppg with good defense. He's a really good role player when he's on, I just prefer Randle and Kuzma's fit with the starters |
He's really having a career year across the board. Problem is that Randle has also improved, and Kuzma has been unexpectedly good. But I do hate when people use those two things as a reason to tear Larry down. He certainly is limited offensively, but he's posting career highs in points, rebounds, steals, and field goal percentage. I'd rather see Kuzma and Randle getting more minutes than him, but I'm happy with how Nance has played. |
Yes Nance is having a good season. I would say he has shown some nice improvement from last season, especially rebounding, but I have been told his growth has stagnated, so that really couldn’t have happened. Everyone knows that Julius is my favorite player but I have been fine with Nance starting. We aren’t the Warriors, we don’t win games in the first quarter. So who starts doesn’t really matter. I would like to see more minutes for Randle and Kuzma but at least they are playing in crunch time. The time of the game that matters in wins and losses.
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are. |
What's left to develop? His jumper is pretty much all. He still after about 4 off-seasons or so is hesitant to shoot it. His off the dribble game hasn't improved. He isn't a guy you can rely on leading a fast break outside of Summer League.
I think at this point, Nance is who he is.
Our numbers aren't better when he starts.
They are better when Randle or Kuzma plays the 4 next to Lopez, but not Nance.
At this point in comes down to favoritism. That's why Nance atarts. Not cause it makes sense or because it's beat for the team but strictly cause Luke favors him.
Luke has as big a crush on Nance as Scott did on Ronnie Price. |
He literally just led two fastbreaks in one quarter the last game.
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That's like saying "Josh Hart isn't a guy that's going to throw down monster dunks." And then you show up and go "HE HAD A DUNK AGAINST THE CAVALIERS!"
Do you seriously, honestly want to depend on Larry Nance Jr to lead your fast breaks? Do you actually believe you can on a consistent basis in an actual NBA game?
Come the [expletive] on! 
| venturalakersfan wrote: |
We aren’t the Warriors, we don’t win games in the first quarter. So who starts doesn’t really matter. I would like to see more minutes for Randle and Kuzma but at least they are playing in crunch time. The time of the game that matters in wins and losses. |
Games aren't particularly won on the first quarter but what's the better scenario to try to win a game from?
The first quarter ending and you're up 28-21 or the first quarter ending and you're down 28-21?
You could win either game technically, but what's the better starting point where you don't play to play from behind from?
Your excuse of "well even if the starting lineup sucks that's not where we're going to win/lose the game upon."
perhaps, but the idea is setting the team up in the best situation possible to win in the most efficient way possible, and starting the game behind the 8 ball cause of what your starting lineup lacks, ain't the way to do it. You gonna disagree with that?
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
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Last edited by MJST on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I do want to see if he starts doing that more consistently. Would be beneficial |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think that you believe for some reason that the team isn’t interested in developing Nance. They are. |
What's left to develop? His jumper is pretty much all. He still after about 4 off-seasons or so is hesitant to shoot it. His off the dribble game hasn't improved. He isn't a guy you can rely on leading a fast break outside of Summer League.
I think at this point, Nance is who he is.
Our numbers aren't better when he starts.
They are better when Randle or Kuzma plays the 4 next to Lopez, but not Nance.
At this point in comes down to favoritism. That's why Nance atarts. Not cause it makes sense or because it's beat for the team but strictly cause Luke favors him.
Luke has as big a crush on Nance as Scott did on Ronnie Price. |
He literally just led two fastbreaks in one quarter the last game.
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That's like saying "Josh Hart isn't a guy that's going to throw down monster dunks." And then you show up and go "HE HAD A DUNK AGAINST THE CAVALIERS!"
Do you seriously, honestly want to depend on Larry Nance Jr to lead your fast breaks? Do you actually believe you can on a consistent basis in an actual NBA game?
Come the [expletive] on!
| venturalakersfan wrote: |
We aren’t the Warriors, we don’t win games in the first quarter. So who starts doesn’t really matter. I would like to see more minutes for Randle and Kuzma but at least they are playing in crunch time. The time of the game that matters in wins and losses. |
Games aren't particularly won on the first quarter but what's the better scenario to try to win a game from?
The first quarter ending and you're up 28-21 or the first quarter ending and you're down 28-21?
You could win either game technically, but what's the better starting point where you don't play to play from behind from?
Your excuse of "well even if the starting lineup sucks that's not where we're going to win/lose the game upon."
perhaps, but the idea is setting the team up in the best situation possible to win in the most efficient way possible, and starting the game behind the 8 ball cause of what your starting lineup lacks, ain't the way to do it. You gonna disagree with that? |
It really doesn’t matter, we can have a lead from our starters and then the bench lose it. Or we can have a deficit from our starters and the bench make up ground. We aren’t good enough to win both units.
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3baller
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | @3Baller: I do think Kuzma deserves to start but I do think you are underestimating the balance issue. They need to avoid that Nance/Randle pairing, it doesn't work because there is no spacing. You have to either have one of Kuzma or Lopez on the floor with one of Nance and Randle.
If we are going to bench Nance the two lineups that don't give you two non-shooters on the bench are:
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Randle/Lopez: +2.3 in 3.2 minutes per game (+0.71/min)
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: +1.5 in 4.1 minutes per game (+0.37/min)
Those keep a shooter on the floor for spacing at all times and have both been effective but not used nearly enough.
Two man lineups this year of the big man combinations:
Randle/Lopez: +2 in 2.7 minutes per game (9 games) (+0.74/min)
Kuzma/Randle: Even in 16.4 minutes (26 games) (Even)
Kuzma/Lopez: -0.7 in 12.7 minutes (23 games) (-0.06/min)
Nance/Lopez: -1.6 in 18.2 minutes (16 games) (-0.09/min)
Nance/Randle: -1.3 in 3.3 minutes (7 games) (-0.39.min)
Kuzma/Nance: -2.8 in 3.4 minutes (11 games) (-0.82/min) |
The Ball-KCP-Ingram-Kuzma-Randle lineup is our best lineup by far with a net rating of +19.6. It's the ideal lineup that a lot of people, including me, have been clamoring for but realistically, it's also very unlikely to happen.
I'm not sure how dependable duos and trio stats are but if you're gonna use those, surely the JC Randle and Nance trio was indeed abysmal last season with a -16.2 rating. But so was the JC and Randle duo at -14.1
But there's a bit of a difference this year as all 3 of those guys have improved remarkably this season. So far this year, the JC and Randle tandem are +0.1, a huge leap. We haven't seen much, if any, of JC, Jules and Larry this year but I'm pretty optimistic that they won't be as bad as last year if we ever try them together.
Last year, Nance spent most of the time on the floor with Ingram at the SF spot but BI wasn't a very good shooter last season even when left open. I think we can mitigate that Nance/Randle frontcourt this year off the bench if we roll them with 3 other decent outside shooters, probably with KCP Clarkson and Hart.
Randle plays so good as a small ball 5 and when paired with JC that it would be a waste to pair him off with Lopez. Kuz starting over Nance just seems the best choice at the moment. |
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tox
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ We definitely played that lineup against the Knicks. They lost us the game, but Luke deserves credit for putting them out there to begin with. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 3baller wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | @3Baller: I do think Kuzma deserves to start but I do think you are underestimating the balance issue. They need to avoid that Nance/Randle pairing, it doesn't work because there is no spacing. You have to either have one of Kuzma or Lopez on the floor with one of Nance and Randle.
If we are going to bench Nance the two lineups that don't give you two non-shooters on the bench are:
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Randle/Lopez: +2.3 in 3.2 minutes per game (+0.71/min)
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: +1.5 in 4.1 minutes per game (+0.37/min)
Those keep a shooter on the floor for spacing at all times and have both been effective but not used nearly enough.
Two man lineups this year of the big man combinations:
Randle/Lopez: +2 in 2.7 minutes per game (9 games) (+0.74/min)
Kuzma/Randle: Even in 16.4 minutes (26 games) (Even)
Kuzma/Lopez: -0.7 in 12.7 minutes (23 games) (-0.06/min)
Nance/Lopez: -1.6 in 18.2 minutes (16 games) (-0.09/min)
Nance/Randle: -1.3 in 3.3 minutes (7 games) (-0.39.min)
Kuzma/Nance: -2.8 in 3.4 minutes (11 games) (-0.82/min) |
The Ball-KCP-Ingram-Kuzma-Randle lineup is our best lineup by far with a net rating of +19.6. It's the ideal lineup that a lot of people, including me, have been clamoring for but realistically, it's also very unlikely to happen.
I'm not sure how dependable duos and trio stats are but if you're gonna use those, surely the JC Randle and Nance trio was indeed abysmal last season with a -16.2 rating. But so was the JC and Randle duo at -14.1
But there's a bit of a difference this year as all 3 of those guys have improved remarkably this season. So far this year, the JC and Randle tandem are +0.1, a huge leap. We haven't seen much, if any, of JC, Jules and Larry this year but I'm pretty optimistic that they won't be as bad as last year if we ever try them together.
Last year, Nance spent most of the time on the floor with Ingram at the SF spot but BI wasn't a very good shooter last season even when left open. I think we can mitigate that Nance/Randle frontcourt this year off the bench if we roll them with 3 other decent outside shooters, probably with KCP Clarkson and Hart.
Randle plays so good as a small ball 5 and when paired with JC that it would be a waste to pair him off with Lopez. Kuz starting over Nance just seems the best choice at the moment. |
Both Randle next to Lopez and Kuzma next to Lopez are better than Nance next to Lopez, both offensively and defensively
https://i.redd.it/4m0jtztmjl101.png
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GOODRICH25
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PHILosophize
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for vetoing a shooting coach, Luke. We sure don't need one since we are awesome at hitting fts. |
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Lakeshow323
Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 1277
Location: LA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The decision not to bring in a shooting coach is going to be his demise and Magics excuse to move elsewhere. And to be honest, he kind of deserves it. |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Thanks for vetoing a shooting coach, Luke. We sure don't need one since we are awesome at hitting fts. |
that has to be the stupidest decision anyone has done on the Lakers since giving Deng 18M for 4 years |
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DocK36
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Joined: 19 Apr 2001
Posts: 19454
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | Thanks for vetoing a shooting coach, Luke. We sure don't need one since we are awesome at hitting fts. |
I think we are dead last in the league when it comes to FT shooting, why in the world wouldn't you at least give the shooting coach idea a try?
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