Official LUKE WALTON Head Coach Thread
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MJST
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:28 am    Post subject:

joey25 wrote:
I think Luke is a great coach.


based on what evidence outside of the Warriors carrying him with philosophies, culture, offense, and defense that he had no hand in creating?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:31 am    Post subject:

Fire Luke, he sucks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
joey25 wrote:
I think Luke is a great coach.


based on what evidence outside of the Warriors carrying him with philosophies, culture, offense, and defense that he had no hand in creating?


Brown, D'Antonio, Scott, Luke, they either emphasis on defense or offense, but all failed to build a team that could execute their game plan.
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deal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:35 am    Post subject:

BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:37 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject:

BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


And it was where the league was headed.

What would D'Antoni have done with a back court of Lonzo and Russell...
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deal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject:

BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


If my memory serves me correctly, many on LG were gunning for MDA's
head. So, which LG'rs should management listen to? Maybe all, and we
fire coach after coach.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:45 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


If my memory serves me correctly, many on LG were gunning for MDA's
head. So, which LG'rs should management listen to? Maybe all, and we
fire coach after coach.


Some were also for D'Antoni, and agreed with his assessment that the league was headed in the direction of how he was coaching.

Others were pining for Phil, or calling for a defensive 'old school' coach.

We got to see Phil in New York, and the "old school coach" up close, and then see D'Antoni's offense win a championship a season later.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:47 am    Post subject:

BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


And it was where the league was headed.

What would D'Antoni have done with a back court of Lonzo and Russell...




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deal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject:

FreakofNature wrote:
MJST wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


And it was where the league was headed.

What would D'Antoni have done with a back court of Lonzo and Russell...





Is Russell a Laker?
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BigBoi
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
FreakofNature wrote:
MJST wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
deal wrote:
BigBoi wrote:
Fire Luke, he sucks.



And so have all the rececent coaches as well. Best thing to do is to
let the knee jerk LG community coach by committee.


Give it a break...


This time the firing would be warranted. We should’ve kept D’Antoni he was and still is a great coach.


And it was where the league was headed.

What would D'Antoni have done with a back court of Lonzo and Russell...





Is Russell a Laker?


D’Antoni would’ve threatened to resign before he ever allows the front office to trade DLO
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al242
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:05 am    Post subject:

Luke is a Junior Varsity coach that lucked his way into a NBA gig, holy crap this guy has absolutely no clue what he is doing. Even Mike Brown knew what he wanted, he was just too incompetent to implement it. Luke does not know what he wants, but he also is incompetent.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject:

I mean, man, really? Deng and Ingram on the wings? Two guys who can't shoot or take anyone off the dribble? I have to start wondering if Luke's a f****** moron or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
epak wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
epak wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
socalsp3 wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
So when are we gonna start holding Luke accountable?


Seems most people on LG are. I hope Luke does too and makes changes or bring in new assitants who can help him.


Me too because the Lakers seemed to be running really no sets, the best players are not playing, etc... It's like he said play fast and that's it. The biggest mistake Luke made was trying to emulate warriors offense.


Which offense should they emulate?


I gave you an impression that we should emulate an offense?


What offense should we run?


I don't know if a specific offense needs to be communicated here on the board. The point is one needs to be implemented by Luke.. It's helter skelter out there.


How about we try to implement a successful offense, like some of what the warriors run?


That's where borrowing from other offenses comes in. We don't have the Warriors personnel, so emulating them completely isn't feasible. That said, we're not running any discernible offense right now anyway, so I'd take anything. Our spacing and movement is atrocious and our sets die and devolve into iso after one action.


Last edited by KBH on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject:

Keep in mind, this is the guy the Lakers didn't even give a chance to come in and give his interview or listen to his vision, because they rushed to hire Luke after one interview.

Quote:
Ettore Messina

Messina is great with "big" playmaking guards

FB&G: How “guard friendly” is his system? Does he rely on a PG to create offense for others? How do you see him using Kobe Bryant and his varied skill set?
XS: Messina has always relied on “big” playmakers. Antoine Rigaudeau, Marko Jaric, Manu Ginobili or Theo Papaloukas are just the kind of guys he wanted to give the ball to, all of them over 6-6 feet. Neither of those have been great shooters (Ginobili being the best of them) but incredible ball handlers, with good penetration and playmaking skills.

In his four Euroleague titles, 3 of the MVPs where guards (Ginobili, Papaloukas and Langdon) but saying his system is “guard friendly” would be taking it too far. I like Messina when he says that a good coach has the ability to detect the player strengths and draws a system to work for them. He’ll share his philosophy but he doesn’t have a closed system he applies everywhere as D’Antoni does with his run and gun or Jackson with the triangle.

The 3 things I’ve seen the most from his teams are:

1) A more than impeccable pick and roll game. Having a beast as Papaloukas helps as he is (not exaggerating) the European Stockton reading P&R situations. As you can see from this small clip of the high P&R they ran in CSKA Moscow; expect some of this to happen this season.

2) High efficiency shots. Bad shots lead to easy fast break points. If he has fast and young players that might mean run, run, and run the fast break and stop it if they can’t finish the easy basket. With a veteran Laker team it will probably mean long worked possessions.

3) More all-around players, less specialists


Messina: A Master on Adaptive Defense

Messina starts defending by attacking smart. Bad shots lead to long rebounds and easy transition points so that’s the first thing he’ll try to transmit to the coaching staff.

He’s always been a guy more in the line of help-recover than help-rotate. I hated how the Lakers changed defenses on every pick and roll situation
As you may see in this clip, it’s a CSKA Moscow – Macabi Tel Aviv game. In the first quarter they are already full court press, double teams, super aggressive off the ball defense on Vujcic (Metta World Peace like) and even some well executed 2-3 zone.
See what I was saying? I repeat. This is JUST the first quarter clip. THE FIRST QUARTER!
Messina is a master teaching that kind of D.

The main issue in Messina as an NBA coach will be on the topic we talked before – Defense. European defense is so much different than the NBA’s. For instance, real zones are not allowed in America as we see them in FIBA ball, more closed into the paint making it harder to get to the hole.

Also, in Europe, every game is played at the top intensity. Of course there are games with rivalries and more things at stake but it’s not like in the NBA where most teams cruise during a game just to sprint the last 8 minutes, or even cruising the whole season to click for the playoffs. For European teams, the dynamic is 1 or 2 games a week, 2 practices per day 4 to 5 days a week. Not shooting sessions, PRACTICE – drills and actually working on the game. That’s quite a big change of rhythm not just for players but also for the coaches. See again the clip from question 3 and tell me if you’ve ever seen that in a regular season first quarter. Yeah right, cruising… (I know, I know, 3-4 games a week and all that stuff, but I’d rather see a well played game than 3 games that don’t matter for the first 40 minutes. Don’t kill me please, just an opinion).

The last big adjustment Messina will likely have a hard time making is the control of the game the coach has over its players. You call Avery Johnson the “little general”? You’ve seen nothing. Coaches in Europe walk the bench up and down, don’t usually sit and are giving commands to its players. He’s probably calmer than the average euro coach but I can’t see that on an NBA bench.
http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2011/07/13/ettore-messina-from-a-locals-perspective/


Quote:
Former BYU college player Travis Hansen played for Messina in Europe and discussed what the Italian coach brings to the table, per Dick Harmon of the Deseret News:

He’s got a high basketball IQ, he’s structured, confident, strategic, personable and demanding...He was pretty laid back during the preseason, watching, learning, analyzing things. He looked at talent, figured out what direction he wanted to take the team, who fit in what role, and after about three weeks coaching started.

[...] Messina is demanding, but he believes in players. If he signs you, it is because he thinks you are one of the best. He demands you to play to the best of your abilities. He gives you the ball and expects those who can deliver to deliver. Strategically, he’s great all-around, but he’s the best in the fourth quarter.


It’s always up to the players to make plays, but when the game is on the line he knows where the ball has to go and how to get it there.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2047491-lakers-head-coach-search-latest-news-and-rumors-on-vacant-position


Kobe respects him, player coach, intensity, demands the absolute best from his players master at teaching multiple defenses as well as offenses and adjusting them on a fast pace due to his personnel, hosts post move clinics and is particularly good at working with big playmakers that can penetrate the paint effectively.
Examples:
http://i.imgur.com/3xYWpeh.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7baqEQiFSzerFQs/giphy.gif

Why Bynum and Gasol Excelled Under The First Year with him Assisting with Mike Brown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkNQG8On90c

West Coast:
Some bits and pieces on him from an interview in 2011 with Os Davis, who works for TrueHoop network as an analyst for international basketball.

On offense:
Quote:
Messina’s teams tend to play quite a slow tempo relative to that of most European leagues, particularly in Spain’s ACB, where Messina was for the past two seasons with Real Madrid and where the floor is wide open. Of course, there are exceptions to this. His 2005-06 CSKA Moscow squad could go into fourth gear early and run the court for the entire match. (Of note, too, is that this team was the ultimate fruit of Mikhail Prokhorov’s business labor, that CSKA dominated defensively in both the Euroleague and Russian Super League, and that Messina was named Euroleague coach of the year.) But the general rule on a Messina team is a slow tempo, half-court game on both sides of the ball.

Probably one of the bigger disappointments in his career -- and surely a source of extreme pressure on Messina from club management -- was Real Madrid’s inability over the past two seasons to get past rivals FC Barcelona. Despite the fact the seriously flexible system of player movement among top European clubs made the 2009-10 Madrid roster a revolving door throughout the season, Messina & Co. just couldn’t find the right combination of quick big men to counter Barcelona’s relentless attack and ability to open the floor at will.

In addition to his preference in the half-court, Laker fans will certainly be cheered by Messina's specialty of working with the post. Nobody in Europe, where frontcourts tend to be notably smaller but the bigs typically have the complete skill set in shooting, really employs anything like a triangle offense. But if Mike Brown was serious when he implied that some stuff with the triangle would remain in the playbook, you can bet that some of those Gasol-Bynum double post plays will have been tweaked/modified/perfected with Messina’s input


http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/20012/q-a-about-ettore-messina-with-os-davis-ballineurope-com

On adjustments and flexibility:

Quote:
“You can’t limit your team to just be an inside team or a perimeter team,” Messina said. “You need to combine the two things. I think the great teams combine the two aspects of their game. They have balance on the floor and they usually take a balanced shot on offense.”


Quote:
Just so you know, MDA's is European style, similar to Messina...


Here's more on Messina's offensive philosophy, straight from the man himself:

Quote:
The general idea of the CSKA offensive system that eventually led us to our system of play was the conviction that it is certainly not the set play or playing free that makes the difference in a game. Rather, is was the ability of our players to understand what the defense was doing and to always be conscious of any changes that they were making. Our players must be able to read the defensive behavior of their opponents. Any offense can be original, but if the player on offense is not able to understand what the defense does, he loses effectiveness and our offense slows down. The strength of our offense depends on the options that the players have at their disposal after reading (and attacking) the defense. This special knowledge takes a while to be completely understood by our players.


Quote:
For our offensive rhythm, it is critical that the ball find its way to our inside player. Playing the ball only on the perimeter creates a lot of difficulties for our offense and, as a result, it becomes harder to win games. On the other hand, getting the ball inside gives us balance and allows us to attack the heart of the defense, where we know that the opposing teams have a defensive organization ready to counteract. Therefore, we must be ready to play against this reaction in order to take an advantage and get an uncontested shot at the basket.

Over the years, we realized that we must aim to have at least 20 shots coming from these low-post situations. Moreover, in the initial phases of the games where the referees are very demanding, our powerful inside game causes many of the opposing big men to get into early foul trouble. This limits their time on the court and we look to take advantage of that. Losing a defensive big man or two early in the game frees us to make more penetrations to the basket.


Quote:
Players must understand what needs to be done after the defense gets to work. They need to know what happens when the center is double teamed, how to move off the pick-and-roll, and how to position themselves in order to attack the weak points of their opponents. This is not an immediate process, but something that is built gradually as the young players learn the game. They must come to learn that at every ball possession, we must produce something, whether it be through a series of well-executed passes, or by reading a mismatch on the court and quickly exploiting it.

http://bmsi.ru/doc/f0fc952d-7d16-48ba-add3-dca393d2322f

The whole thing about reading the defense and reacting sounds very similar to the triangle btw.

via West Coast

Ettoire Messina talks about what happened with the Lakers Offense during his time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYGpuqTdD78

Philosophies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvEqZnP2_7w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcCuXT1q0Vw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgfyfzvtfYQ

Offensive Ideals and Drills:
The .5 Point Drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA1mmEtf6R4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz8c3k473gU

Spacing and Timing and settting up three point shots with it(7:12 onward is very worth a listen)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwZriAAESf4

(Long)Seminar on defending the pick and roll and attacking the switch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssGROBbe68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AajtaR1iSGY


Messina is undoubtedly one of, if not the best coach on the market and is within the Lakers sights.



There is a REASON this guy is essentially being groomed to take over on the Spurs when Pop retires. But he was actually willing to leave that to try to get an interview for the Coaching job of the Lakers. But the Lakers hired Luke before Messina was meant to come in and give his vision. They didn't even listen to what he had planned out for us because that first interview with Luke just went oh so well..

If there's a word bigger than disrespect I'd use it. Already searching for a word that's greater than stupid.

Luke's got a looooong way to go.
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Last edited by MJST on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:23 am    Post subject:

Did Messina:

1. grow up a Buss?
2. marry a Buss?
3. play for the Showtime Lakers?
4. play for the Lakers at all?

If no to any of these, sorry.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:35 am    Post subject:

Is it just me or does Luke have some eerie similarities to Byron? I mean, desired stylr of play aside, I mean more, coaching idiosyncracies. Or maybe these are traits of many coaches and just exacerbated with ones that arent great.

- Overly stubborn about a particular thing
- Weird lineups and subs
- Has to have someone in their doghouse

I guess this year its Randle instead of DLo. Maybe we'll trade Randle for "leadership"
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject:

My problems with Luke are the following

1. every 3rd qtr in preseason and opener we come out and lay an egg, that is totally on coaching nothing else

2. Ingram starts out pressing too much take him out at 3 min mark throw kuzma in for him let him sit rest of 1st qyr

3. Beverly starts his dirty cheap crap with Lonzo, not one teammate has the toughness to step up start setting hard borderline dirty screens to defend their rookie teammate

4. Randle pouting like a baby about not starting takes him out for what a minute ? he would sit the rest of the game

stop coddling players like Ingram and randle you are doing them more harm than good, start taking playing time away from guys who dont put the effor out there

starting 5 till KCP is back should be Ball/Brewer/Ingram/kuzma/Lopez

at least Brewer will cut and can hit a corner 3, Kuzma is either gonna make a move or pass and stretch the floor not stand there like a deer in the headlights when passed the ball like nance does

Time to look for some shooters too starting 5 the ball was sticking way too much move the damn ball
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:37 am    Post subject:

Also, I know, different lineups, opponents, things at stake but....

... I can't help but feel how much more free we played under Buechler. Perhaos Luke ought to pull a McAdoo of sorts. Haha.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:38 am    Post subject:

Maybe we'd stop asking for the coaches to be fired if they'd actually hire a competent coach for once
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject:

How soon b/f the FO will say that "Luke wasn't our coach..."

Someone will have to be the fall guy this year. We've already jettisoned one scapegoat.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
epak wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
epak wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
epak wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
socalsp3 wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
So when are we gonna start holding Luke accountable?


Seems most people on LG are. I hope Luke does too and makes changes or bring in new assitants who can help him.


Me too because the Lakers seemed to be running really no sets, the best players are not playing, etc... It's like he said play fast and that's it. The biggest mistake Luke made was trying to emulate warriors offense.


Which offense should they emulate?


I gave you an impression that we should emulate an offense?


What offense should we run?


I don't know if a specific offense needs to be communicated here on the board. The point is one needs to be implemented by Luke.. It's helter skelter out there.


How about we try to implement a successful offense, like some of what the warriors run?


That's where borrowing from other offenses comes in. We don't have the Warriors personnel, so emulating them completely isn't feasible. That said, we're not running any discernible offense right now anyway, so I'd take anything. Our spacing and movement is atrocious and our sets die and devolve into iso after one action.


We are running an offense from the Warriors. We just lack the skill sets to make it work.



Last edited by fiendishoc on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
How soon b/f the FO will say that "Luke wasn't our coach..."

Someone will have to be the fall guy this year. We've already jettisoned one scapegoat.


They're already on record calling him a championship coach that the team is going to build around, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:46 am    Post subject:

Luke is going to have experiment until he gets the best core of players focusing on maximum team effort. We're going to take our lumps in the mean time. Rebuilding is brutal.
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