Official Goodbye LUKE WALTON Thread (Luke/Lakers Part Ways, p. 792, Signs Deal with Kings p. 809)
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foshowtime
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Luke Walton hopes sitting in the fourth quarter motivates Lakers to be better

Los Angeles’ head coach explained his philosophy on his fourth quarter rotations.


Quote:
If there has been one criticism of Los Angeles Lakers head coach Luke Walton this season, it’s been how he’s handled his playing rotations, especially in fourth quarters. Check Twitter during any close fourth quarter of a Lakers game, and you’ll inevitably see complaints about Walton playing someone too many or too few minutes.


http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/1/16/14283832/la-lakers-luke-walton-fourth-quarter-minutes-dangelo-russell-julius-randle


Quote:
“Sometimes we’ll go back to other people to give them opportunities, whether it’s that a group doesn’t look great together and, say, Julius is having a bad game, we’ll go back to Julius,”


That explains it. JC was playing like ass after tweaking his ankle the first time, so he stuck with JC over Russell vs. Detroit to give him an "opportunity." Makes perfect sense.



To me, the biggest problem with Luke has been his "soft spots". He has a soft spot for guys like MWP, the bench in general and Lou/JC specifically.

Given his soft spot for these guys, he will always give them more of a chance. Whenever they do good, he will value it more than others and give them more time.

There is no way that one of your top 2-3 talents, who had 18 points in 3 quarters, should be made to sit to motivate him "to bring it". The fact that he would have stuck with JC and not brought DLO in at all sans injury is just inflammatory. In fact, the opposite, should be true. Even if Lou has a "nice little rhythm", he should sit for the young guys.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
justsomelakerfan wrote:
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I don't know what to think anymore.

If the first 20 games were all Luke, are the next 20 games not Luke at all? I mean is it possible to be entirely responsible for the first 20 games and completely off the hook for the next 20?

I cannot tell if Luke is any good or not.


I wouldn't overreact to a particularly bad 4th quarter Luke just had. The team won 17 games last season. We're already at 15 with the same roster. He's doing an overall fine job.


This team would have won more than 17 games this season with Scott as coach.

And yeah, it's nice that we have 15 wins but we had 10 in November.

What's with your Scott nostalgia. You were quite vocal about getting rid of him. Luke is a rookie coach. Give him more than half a season, no?


Oh, don't get me wrong, I think Byron is the worst coach I've seen since I became a fan of the team around two decades ago.

But even Byron would have won more than 17 games because he would have had Luol, Mozgov, and more developed players than he had last season. Plus, he would have had Ingram. Now, I can't say how many more games he would have won, and I still think Luke would have won more.

I'm just saying setting the bar for Luke at 17 is the wrong bar. The bar for Luke should be whatever one thinks Scott would have gotten with this roster as currently constructed. For, it's probably in the mid-to-low 20s wins.

It's just difficult for me to assess Luke at this point. In the first 20 games I thought, wow, what a coach. We like to give credit by saying wow, he won 10 games by November and it was Jan or Feb or whatever before Byron won that. But we've also only won 5 games since November. So if Luke gets the credit for the first 20, does he not shoulder any of the blame for the last 25?

In particular with a young team, we should be getting better over time as they should be getting better over time. Creating a foundation on which to build on for the following season. But we're trending in the wrong direction.

We've had four straight games now scoring under 100 and when you have arguably the worst defense in the league, that's just not going to get it done.


If you want to make a comparison I would use MDA instead of Byron. He may actually have this team winning 35 games. By that comes with experience, something Luke doesn't have much of. He would likely bench Moz, move Deng to PF too


Ok, I mean, I was responding to someone who said we won 17 games last year and we are pacing to beat that as if that necessitates success.

I don't get why we would use last season as a benchmark considering even the parking brake himself would beat his own dismal effort with the additions we have had and the natural development of the younger players plus the drafting of BI.

Our benchmark for Luke should probably be 17 + X. With X being the incremental wins we would have expected with Byron still as coach this year. It's probably like 22 or something like that.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject:

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I don't get why we would use last season as a benchmark considering even the parking brake himself would beat his own dismal effort with the additions we have had and the natural development of the younger players plus the drafting of BI.


Not with these injuries. And BI is still a negative in terms of contributing to wins and losses this early in his development.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
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I don't get why we would use last season as a benchmark considering even the parking brake himself would beat his own dismal effort with the additions we have had and the natural development of the younger players plus the drafting of BI.


Not with these injuries. And BI is still a negative in terms of contributing to wins and losses this early in his development.


Sure. And last season we had two of those in JR and DLO. This year we have one. In either case, the bar even for Scott would be higher than 17 wins this season is my point.

And so the bar should be a couple inches higher off that for Lukey.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Quote:
I don't get why we would use last season as a benchmark considering even the parking brake himself would beat his own dismal effort with the additions we have had and the natural development of the younger players plus the drafting of BI.


Not with these injuries. And BI is still a negative in terms of contributing to wins and losses this early in his development.


Sure. And last season we had two of those in JR and DLO. This year we have one. In either case, the bar even for Scott would be higher than 17 wins this season is my point.

And so the bar should be a couple inches higher off that for Lukey.

Multiple crater-sized holes in your reasoning about this. Just because the roster has more talent overall doesn't mean that Byron would've gotten more than 17 wins out of this group this year. You have to factor in several things:

1. No meaningful grasp of the modern NBA offense- Even if Byron had been around to try to run more modernized sets, it would've been just as disastrous as when he had them running Motion Weak. No counters, no creative variations to cater to the personnel, etc. It would've been just like last year. If the initial action breaks down, for whatever reason, the players would be totally lost on what to do and just go full blown iso and end up chucking wild shots to avoid a shot clock violations. They wouldn't have been playing as well as they have on offense under Luke if Byron was still here. They would've still been at the absolute bottom of the barrel in every offensive category, like his teams always were every single year.

2. No sincere interest (or ability) to develop the young players- Randle and Russell have made huge strides this year. How much of that is the result of gaining more and more experience with the NBA game is debatable, but at the very least the HOF wouldn't have Randle's game jersey and shorts from that recent triple double game. He's much more of a triple double threat because of the way Luke is developing him. He's a willing passer. Last year he only wanted to get his own. This year he's so eager to facilitate for others that even DLO considers him to be a "pass first" guy. It's a changed mentality. When players make drastic mentality changes like that it's always because of coaching.

And DLO is gaining a much better grasp of how to be a point guard, which he didn't have under Byron at all. And only the Most High knows what that man would've done to Ingram. Smh. It's scary to even think about. His minutes would've probably depended on how much weight he was gaining and whether or not Byron was convinced he was working hard enough to do it. Plus, Byron would've hated his personality and deemed him too nice. And we all know how Byron feels about those nice guys. They're girly men. They should be knitting sweaters.

3. There also wouldn't have been any kind of Nick Young resurgence. He would've been riding the bench right there next to Tarik. And that's another thing: Tarik would still be on the bench lol. Robinson would've either been Mozgov's backup, or he would've been the starting PF instead of Randle.

4. The team as a whole would show zero improvement on either side of the ball throughout the season because X's and O's would've been replaced with fist fight references and accusations of being "scared" of the opponent after every loss.

More things could be listed but it's far more likely that Byron would've gotten less than 17 wins coaching this group.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject:

foshowtime wrote:

To me, the biggest problem with Luke has been his "soft spots". He has a soft spot for guys like MWP, the bench in general and Lou/JC specifically.

Given his soft spot for these guys, he will always give them more of a chance. Whenever they do good, he will value it more than others and give them more time.

There is no way that one of your top 2-3 talents, who had 18 points in 3 quarters, should be made to sit to motivate him "to bring it". The fact that he would have stuck with JC and not brought DLO in at all sans injury is just inflammatory. In fact, the opposite, should be true. Even if Lou has a "nice little rhythm", he should sit for the young guys.


I honestly thought Russell's effort on defense went from great in the 1st quarter (ok it's been a while so maybe great is overstatement) to poor in the 3rd. Couple that with sloppy turnovers (especially that bad pass but the offensive foul as well I guess) and I see where he should be criticized.

It's obviously tough because Russell was having a good scoring game... but you have to get his attention somehow.

I do think Luke is harder on Russell than anyone else, probably because he expects more out of him and needs him to focus on things like defense, ball protection, and playing within the offense. As an outside, I tend to agree that Luke should play Russell more, especially when JC is clearly gimpy... but I guess I'm sensitive to the fact that he might have reasoning that we just aren't privy to.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject:

Post all star break I'd like to see Russell, Clarkson, Ingram, Randle, Zubac.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject:

RichD wrote:
Post all star break I'd like to see Russell, Clarkson, Ingram, Randle, Zubac.


Absolutely, only addition to that list I'd make is Nance Jr healthy, and ready to come off the bench.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Quote:
I don't get why we would use last season as a benchmark considering even the parking brake himself would beat his own dismal effort with the additions we have had and the natural development of the younger players plus the drafting of BI.


Not with these injuries. And BI is still a negative in terms of contributing to wins and losses this early in his development.


Sure. And last season we had two of those in JR and DLO. This year we have one. In either case, the bar even for Scott would be higher than 17 wins this season is my point.

And so the bar should be a couple inches higher off that for Lukey.

Multiple crater-sized holes in your reasoning about this. Just because the roster has more talent overall doesn't mean that Byron would've gotten more than 17 wins out of this group this year. You have to factor in several things:

1. No meaningful grasp of the modern NBA offense- Even if Byron had been around to try to run more modernized sets, it would've been just as disastrous as when he had them running Motion Weak. No counters, no creative variations to cater to the personnel, etc. It would've been just like last year. If the initial action breaks down, for whatever reason, the players would be totally lost on what to do and just go full blown iso and end up chucking wild shots to avoid a shot clock violations. They wouldn't have been playing as well as they have on offense under Luke if Byron was still here. They would've still been at the absolute bottom of the barrel in every offensive category, like his teams always were every single year.

2. No sincere interest (or ability) to develop the young players- Randle and Russell have made huge strides this year. How much of that is the result of gaining more and more experience with the NBA game is debatable, but at the very least the HOF wouldn't have Randle's game jersey and shorts from that recent triple double game. He's much more of a triple double threat because of the way Luke is developing him. He's a willing passer. Last year he only wanted to get his own. This year he's so eager to facilitate for others that even DLO considers him to be a "pass first" guy. It's a changed mentality. When players make drastic mentality changes like that it's always because of coaching.

And DLO is gaining a much better grasp of how to be a point guard, which he didn't have under Byron at all. And only the Most High knows what that man would've done to Ingram. Smh. It's scary to even think about. His minutes would've probably depended on how much weight he was gaining and whether or not Byron was convinced he was working hard enough to do it. Plus, Byron would've hated his personality and deemed him too nice. And we all know how Byron feels about those nice guys. They're girly men. They should be knitting sweaters.

3. There also wouldn't have been any kind of Nick Young resurgence. He would've been riding the bench right there next to Tarik. And that's another thing: Tarik would still be on the bench lol. Robinson would've either been Mozgov's backup, or he would've been the starting PF instead of Randle.

4. The team as a whole would show zero improvement on either side of the ball throughout the season because X's and O's would've been replaced with fist fight references and accusations of being "scared" of the opponent after every loss.

More things could be listed but it's far more likely that Byron would've gotten less than 17 wins coaching this group.


This doesn't make any sense. Byron was already doing all of those things when he won 17 games. He had no modern grasp of a modern NBA offense last season. He had no interest in developing the young players. He never had or tried to get a Nick Young resurgence and Tarik was riding the bench then as he would now. The team showed no improvement on either side of the ball last season and they likely would have shown none this year either. And he was doing all of that while running his offense primarily through an offensive option that was less efficient than Brandon Ingram has been all season.

How is it that someone who does the exact same horrible things, but with a better roster, actually perform worse doing the exact same horrible things? That logic doesn't fly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject:

Quote:
How is it that someone who does the exact same horrible things, but with a better roster, actually perform worse doing the exact same horrible things? That logic doesn't fly.


How would Byron encore with DLO/Jules, two guys he absolutely burned bridges with? You can argue they may be stymied even more (which absolutely kills the franchise going forward).

I'm so happy Byron didn't get anywhere near Ingram either.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
How is it that someone who does the exact same horrible things, but with a better roster, actually perform worse doing the exact same horrible things? That logic doesn't fly.


How would Byron encore with DLO/Jules, two guys he absolutely burned bridges with? You can argue they may be stymied even more (which absolutely kills the franchise going forward).

I'm so happy Byron didn't get anywhere near Ingram either.


I think that's a fair argument. I was certainly making the point in a vacuum. My point is, if we did not have a coaching change at all, coming in to the season, would you have expected less than 17 wins, or more? Or the same?

I would have expected a little more, with no KFT, no FAs, and improved young kids even if we keep BI out of the discussion. (And FWIW, I totally agree that I'd want Byron far, far away from Ingram. Ingram seems a bit mentally fragile to me, he might have set him back a season or two at least).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
How is it that someone who does the exact same horrible things, but with a better roster, actually perform worse doing the exact same horrible things? That logic doesn't fly.


How would Byron encore with DLO/Jules, two guys he absolutely burned bridges with? You can argue they may be stymied even more (which absolutely kills the franchise going forward).

I'm so happy Byron didn't get anywhere near Ingram either.


Where we come from, Ingram would be just fine with Byron.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject:

BIKinstonFan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
How is it that someone who does the exact same horrible things, but with a better roster, actually perform worse doing the exact same horrible things? That logic doesn't fly.


How would Byron encore with DLO/Jules, two guys he absolutely burned bridges with? You can argue they may be stymied even more (which absolutely kills the franchise going forward).

I'm so happy Byron didn't get anywhere near Ingram either.


Where we come from, Ingram would be just fine with Byron.


Thankfully we will never have to worry about that.
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2019
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


One would think. But 4 years of likely non-playoffs have made some lakers fan disoriented.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


One would think. But 4 years of likely non-playoffs have made some lakers fan disoriented.


If we see some signs in the next season and a half that this core can make the playoffs. That will ease alot of tensions.
We haven't won 30 games since 2013, so the anxiety is understandable to me.
That's why 30 games is my goal. If not this season, then next season is a must.
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2019
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


One would think. But 4 years of likely non-playoffs have made some lakers fan disoriented.


If we see some signs in the next season and a half that this core can make the playoffs. That will ease alot of tensions.
We haven't won 30 games since 2013, so the anxiety is understandable to me.
That's why 30 games is my goal. If not this season, then next season is a must.


I understand that anxiety but we're comparing the most promising young coach in the NBA (in his first year) to the statistically worst coach in NBA history who literally almost burned down the entire franchise.

I get it. You are what your record says you are but this season and last season is night and day, IMO.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


One would think. But 4 years of likely non-playoffs have made some lakers fan disoriented.


If we see some signs in the next season and a half that this core can make the playoffs. That will ease alot of tensions.
We haven't won 30 games since 2013, so the anxiety is understandable to me.
That's why 30 games is my goal. If not this season, then next season is a must.


I understand that anxiety but we're comparing the most promising young coach in the NBA (in his first year) to the statistically worst coach in NBA history who literally almost burned down the entire franchise.

I get it. You are what your record says you are but this season and last season is night and day, IMO.


yep, yep, yep, even in losing this season versus last season I am optimistic we'll turn it around with Luke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
2019 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


One would think. But 4 years of likely non-playoffs have made some lakers fan disoriented.


If we see some signs in the next season and a half that this core can make the playoffs. That will ease alot of tensions.
We haven't won 30 games since 2013, so the anxiety is understandable to me.
That's why 30 games is my goal. If not this season, then next season is a must.


I understand that anxiety but we're comparing the most promising young coach in the NBA (in his first year) to the statistically worst coach in NBA history who literally almost burned down the entire franchise.

I get it. You are what your record says you are but this season and last season is night and day, IMO.


yep, yep, yep, even in losing this season versus last season I am optimistic we'll turn it around with Luke


Now the powers that be (Mitch and Jim) need to do a far better job at managing cap versus getting the right pieces. We clearly are missing certain type players. Luke can't expect to be a defensive wiz with the roster we have-- which seems to be a big complaint on him.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject:

The Lakers road a wave of joy and relief to a quick start, and then a road (literally) of horrible schedule and injury to a tough December, which should remind us that neither thing was entirely real. They were due to cool off as teams began to scout them and as the adrenaline wore off a bit. But they also showed a natural chemistry and some skill sets to work with, and Luke is now doing what I think he expected to be doing in November.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject:

I can't help but wonder how much cooling off we would have done had Nance not got hurt initially. I'm trying not to exaggerate his significance but this guy was working with that second unit, and really provided a basis for optimism.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


There are no Luke to Byron discussions.

It's so funny to me. The same people saying "can't believe there are Luke to Byron discussions" are the same people who keep saying "we won 17 games last year, Luke's doing aw3some!"

Then, when you get pressed on the 17 games benchmark, you say, man, can't believe people are bringing up Byron.

When you use 17 games as the benchmark, it is YOU who is bringing up Byron. (Not you specifically 2019, just saying).

Bottom line is, it's not about comparing the two per se although they have both been woeful in different ways. It's really about trying to establish the true benchmark for success, for Luke.

If you keep using 17 games as a reference point, then, I think you're off base because as I said, Byron would have won a few more than 17. So a fairer benchmark for Luke should be whatever Byron's god awful self would have won with this rag tag bunch of kids. Haha.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject:

I listened to, and enjoyed, his interview with SAS. Thought he was very candid and honest. I really love that he receives help from Kerr and Phil. I definitely respect those two more for offering to help.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
2019 wrote:
the fact that there are Luke to Byron discussions in here is crazy to me


There are no Luke to Byron discussions.

It's so funny to me. The same people saying "can't believe there are Luke to Byron discussions" are the same people who keep saying "we won 17 games last year, Luke's doing aw3some!"

Then, when you get pressed on the 17 games benchmark, you say, man, can't believe people are bringing up Byron.

When you use 17 games as the benchmark, it is YOU who is bringing up Byron. (Not you specifically 2019, just saying).

Bottom line is, it's not about comparing the two per se although they have both been woeful in different ways. It's really about trying to establish the true benchmark for success, for Luke.

If you keep using 17 games as a reference point, then, I think you're off base because as I said, Byron would have won a few more than 17. So a fairer benchmark for Luke should be whatever Byron's god awful self would have won with this rag tag bunch of kids. Haha.


A coach still needs time to implement his system, philosophies, principles etc. it's not a given that a new coach will drastically increase the win total even if they are a drastically better coach than the previous one. It takes time especially when the new coach is much more worried about developing young players which is the case. Despite that, the team is going to win way more games and is showing tangible signs of improvement even though it has been sustained for extended periods of time.

Also, it's no given that Byron would win more than 17 this year. He won less games in his second year than 1st and there was never any glimpses of team improvement.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject:

RichD wrote:
Post all star break I'd like to see Russell, Clarkson, Ingram, Randle, Zubac.


I seriously doubt you'll see it. In the top 20 5-man Units by minutes:
1) Russel/Clarkson appears in 1 (19.8 minutes so far).
2) Every time Russell is in, Young is in too.
3) Russell/Williams doesn't appear anywhere.

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