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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | supermegamen wrote: | i think there's the element of being part of a team some of you are missing. completely agree with Luke here on if you are part of a team, you'll have to take responsibility not only for your own actions but for those of your team also. it's your responsibility to hold everyone accountable to maximize the success of the team and therefore your own success as well. if guys around you and are not doing what they're supposed to do, you have to speak up and get their head straight or you will fail as well. I think this is a very important lesson not only on leadership but also on teamwork and demeanor. very glad Luke is trying to make everyone playing the right way by sticking to some great principles here.
i know Ingram is still pretty young and it's unfortunate he's punished for the things the older guys (who should be the real leaders) are not doing, but it's a great way of teaching everyone how to play the right way. |
As I said, the idea sounds great in theory, and it sounds good when you're not the party being punished for someone else's actions.
Do you think society would be better off if everyone were incarcerated for the actions of a single person?
Do you think the LG community would be improved if they suspended the entire forum any time a single member failed to play nicely?
Would you be more motivated to work hard if you were fired when a co-worker couldn't show up to work on time?
Wouldn't it be awesome if you couldn't secure a mortgage or a car loan because the guy who applied right before you had bad credit?
Collective punishment is the equivalent of the double technical. It's lame, and it is weak. It's so funny to me that people would be on board with this approach. Whatever happened to the notion of not judging the many by the actions of the few? |
As somebody who played and currently coaches I can speak from experience and say that collective punishment can be very effective both in theory and practice. The leaders of the team make themselves known, the guys who are just good teammates fall in line, and the kids with bad attitudes stick out like a sore thumb because they would rather whine about being punished for somebody else's actions than work hard and do better.
Is it effective with adults in the NBA is a different question but the Lakers are so young that I think it's the correct way for Luke to go about punishing players. Hopefully this leads to Ingram getting on the other guys when they don't play with the appropriate focus and energy. |
What impact would working harder/doing better have if they're just gonna get punished for someone else's actions regardless? |
You can reward them with more playing time, shots etc. than the other players who are the reasons for the punishments. The initial punishment of everybody sends a message to the team about accountability and reminds them that you win and lose as a team. But after that the player who was the reason for the punishment can receive further punishment.
Example is you bench the starting lineup for the beginning of the second half but once they come back in, the players who weren't the reason for the punishment receive more PT than the ones who were. |
Bingo. This is why I'm not complaining.
I think the other angle is also that you don't want the young guys to be too buddy buddy on the court. I mean obviously good chemistry is important, but you also want people to hold each other accountable.
Ingram, for example, seems to be pretty quiet. But if he's going to get benched because Randle is not tagging the short roll, I can see him actually speaking up to Randle and telling him to do his damn rotations. Otherwise, he might just be zeroed in on playing the right way himself. That is laudable but we want to groom him (and the rest of the young core) into being leaders. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who has ever played team sports knows this is very common.
When we ran "lines" in high school timed at the end of practice, if anyone on the team didn't make it in time, we all had to run again.
The idea being that the will of the team is forged in being able to count on one another and that it isn't about the individual.
Acting like it is OK to disrespect the coach over something as small as this? Stupid, petty and weak and I guarantee Ingram isn't thinking that way.
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | supermegamen wrote: | i think there's the element of being part of a team some of you are missing. completely agree with Luke here on if you are part of a team, you'll have to take responsibility not only for your own actions but for those of your team also. it's your responsibility to hold everyone accountable to maximize the success of the team and therefore your own success as well. if guys around you and are not doing what they're supposed to do, you have to speak up and get their head straight or you will fail as well. I think this is a very important lesson not only on leadership but also on teamwork and demeanor. very glad Luke is trying to make everyone playing the right way by sticking to some great principles here.
i know Ingram is still pretty young and it's unfortunate he's punished for the things the older guys (who should be the real leaders) are not doing, but it's a great way of teaching everyone how to play the right way. |
As I said, the idea sounds great in theory, and it sounds good when you're not the party being punished for someone else's actions.
Do you think society would be better off if everyone were incarcerated for the actions of a single person?
Do you think the LG community would be improved if they suspended the entire forum any time a single member failed to play nicely?
Would you be more motivated to work hard if you were fired when a co-worker couldn't show up to work on time?
Wouldn't it be awesome if you couldn't secure a mortgage or a car loan because the guy who applied right before you had bad credit?
Collective punishment is the equivalent of the double technical. It's lame, and it is weak. It's so funny to me that people would be on board with this approach. Whatever happened to the notion of not judging the many by the actions of the few? |
As somebody who played and currently coaches I can speak from experience and say that collective punishment can be very effective both in theory and practice. The leaders of the team make themselves known, the guys who are just good teammates fall in line, and the kids with bad attitudes stick out like a sore thumb because they would rather whine about being punished for somebody else's actions than work hard and do better.
Is it effective with adults in the NBA is a different question but the Lakers are so young that I think it's the correct way for Luke to go about punishing players. Hopefully this leads to Ingram getting on the other guys when they don't play with the appropriate focus and energy. |
What impact would working harder/doing better have if they're just gonna get punished for someone else's actions regardless? |
You can reward them with more playing time, shots etc. than the other players who are the reasons for the punishments. The initial punishment of everybody sends a message to the team about accountability and reminds them that you win and lose as a team. But after that the player who was the reason for the punishment can receive further punishment.
Example is you bench the starting lineup for the beginning of the second half but once they come back in, the players who weren't the reason for the punishment receive more PT than the ones who were. |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
LG is not a team. The Lakers are a team. The analogy stops there. |
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deal
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Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14911
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | Anyone who has ever played team sports knows this is very common.
When we ran "lines" in high school timed at the end of practice, if anyone on the team didn't make it in time, we all had to run again.
The idea being that the will of the team is forged in being able to count on one another and that it isn't about the individual.
Acting like it is OK to disrespect the coach over something as small as this? Stupid, petty and weak and I guarantee Ingram isn't thinking that way. |
Absolutely agree with your assessment. The coach is in charge, whoever thinks other wise, should be benched. This is something I admire about Pop, stars and non-stars do what he says; its not up for discussion or a vote.
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Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8453
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | supermegamen wrote: | i think there's the element of being part of a team some of you are missing. completely agree with Luke here on if you are part of a team, you'll have to take responsibility not only for your own actions but for those of your team also. it's your responsibility to hold everyone accountable to maximize the success of the team and therefore your own success as well. if guys around you and are not doing what they're supposed to do, you have to speak up and get their head straight or you will fail as well. I think this is a very important lesson not only on leadership but also on teamwork and demeanor. very glad Luke is trying to make everyone playing the right way by sticking to some great principles here.
i know Ingram is still pretty young and it's unfortunate he's punished for the things the older guys (who should be the real leaders) are not doing, but it's a great way of teaching everyone how to play the right way. |
As I said, the idea sounds great in theory, and it sounds good when you're not the party being punished for someone else's actions.
Do you think society would be better off if everyone were incarcerated for the actions of a single person?
Do you think the LG community would be improved if they suspended the entire forum any time a single member failed to play nicely?
Would you be more motivated to work hard if you were fired when a co-worker couldn't show up to work on time?
Wouldn't it be awesome if you couldn't secure a mortgage or a car loan because the guy who applied right before you had bad credit?
Collective punishment is the equivalent of the double technical. It's lame, and it is weak. It's so funny to me that people would be on board with this approach. Whatever happened to the notion of not judging the many by the actions of the few? |
As somebody who played and currently coaches I can speak from experience and say that collective punishment can be very effective both in theory and practice. The leaders of the team make themselves known, the guys who are just good teammates fall in line, and the kids with bad attitudes stick out like a sore thumb because they would rather whine about being punished for somebody else's actions than work hard and do better.
Is it effective with adults in the NBA is a different question but the Lakers are so young that I think it's the correct way for Luke to go about punishing players. Hopefully this leads to Ingram getting on the other guys when they don't play with the appropriate focus and energy. |
What impact would working harder/doing better have if they're just gonna get punished for someone else's actions regardless? |
You can reward them with more playing time, shots etc. than the other players who are the reasons for the punishments. The initial punishment of everybody sends a message to the team about accountability and reminds them that you win and lose as a team. But after that the player who was the reason for the punishment can receive further punishment.
Example is you bench the starting lineup for the beginning of the second half but once they come back in, the players who weren't the reason for the punishment receive more PT than the ones who were. |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
it's a team and I think the objective is Luke trying to instill a hold each other accountable mantra in the 1st unit. It's similar to if someone messes up in practice and everybody runs, until they get it right.. Players need to start being leaders and vocalize - be an extension of the coach. Some players don't seem to deserve "punishment" but those same players aren't stepping up and being a leader on the floor, so they don't get taken out. It's more than just working hard, that's for the 2nd unit; The 1st unit are the young players of the Laker future (for now), it's time to speak up, be leaders out there and guide this team.
Last edited by Outspoken on Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
LG is not a team. The Lakers are a team. The analogy stops there. |
Sure we are. I mean, we're a community. A team is just a community on a smaller scale. But ok. Would you fire an entire team of interns if one guy can't show up to work on time? I would hope not.
Like I said before, it's a cool concept in theory but it often backfires when utilized in a real world setting. That's why it's not employed very often in the real world. At the very least, it has to be used very sparingly to avoid backfiring which will happen when it is applied consistently. |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | tox wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
LG is not a team. The Lakers are a team. The analogy stops there. |
Sure we are. I mean, we're a community. A team is just a community on a smaller scale. But ok. Would you fire an entire team of interns if one guy can't show up to work on time? I would hope not.
Like I said before, it's a cool concept in theory but it often backfires when utilized in a real world setting. That's why it's not employed very often in the real world. At the very least, it has to be used very sparingly to avoid backfiring which will happen when it is applied consistently. |
No, because the production of a team of interns does not nearly depend on internal accountability and camaraderie like a basketball team does. If an intern is performing badly, you don't need other interns to tell him off. You have the boss do that. And if he argues? Fire him and replace him with someone new.
The Lakers can't just ditch Russell or Ingram or Randle without setting the franchise backwards, and the players know that. That gives them more leverage on their bosses (i.e. the coaches/ FO) versus a group of interns. That's why instead of forcing the coach (i.e. the boss) to unilaterally hold the team accountable (which will be ineffective), you instead leverage a team-wise culture of accountability.
That's why on court leaders are so valuable. The Lakers don't have that guy and so I don't mind trying to stoke that in our players. If this technique causes Ingram to light into Russell or Clarkson or Randle for blowing a coverage or not running back on defense, that to me is a positive thing. Because you can't expect Luke to do that unilaterally. It'll never work. |
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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12717
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| In the real world, people's salaries aren't guaranteed. This is a silly analogy. |
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nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | Anyone who has ever played team sports knows this is very common.
When we ran "lines" in high school timed at the end of practice, if anyone on the team didn't make it in time, we all had to run again.
The idea being that the will of the team is forged in being able to count on one another and that it isn't about the individual.
Acting like it is OK to disrespect the coach over something as small as this? Stupid, petty and weak and I guarantee Ingram isn't thinking that way. |
That is true.
If we think about the fact that last couple of weeks most players from our young core had career highs, but we didn't win most games it becomes clear that the team should be placed over individuals and we should build confidence, accountability and synergy to succeed. |
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Omar Little
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Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | supermegamen wrote: | i think there's the element of being part of a team some of you are missing. completely agree with Luke here on if you are part of a team, you'll have to take responsibility not only for your own actions but for those of your team also. it's your responsibility to hold everyone accountable to maximize the success of the team and therefore your own success as well. if guys around you and are not doing what they're supposed to do, you have to speak up and get their head straight or you will fail as well. I think this is a very important lesson not only on leadership but also on teamwork and demeanor. very glad Luke is trying to make everyone playing the right way by sticking to some great principles here.
i know Ingram is still pretty young and it's unfortunate he's punished for the things the older guys (who should be the real leaders) are not doing, but it's a great way of teaching everyone how to play the right way. |
As I said, the idea sounds great in theory, and it sounds good when you're not the party being punished for someone else's actions.
Do you think society would be better off if everyone were incarcerated for the actions of a single person?
Do you think the LG community would be improved if they suspended the entire forum any time a single member failed to play nicely?
Would you be more motivated to work hard if you were fired when a co-worker couldn't show up to work on time?
Wouldn't it be awesome if you couldn't secure a mortgage or a car loan because the guy who applied right before you had bad credit?
Collective punishment is the equivalent of the double technical. It's lame, and it is weak. It's so funny to me that people would be on board with this approach. Whatever happened to the notion of not judging the many by the actions of the few? |
As somebody who played and currently coaches I can speak from experience and say that collective punishment can be very effective both in theory and practice. The leaders of the team make themselves known, the guys who are just good teammates fall in line, and the kids with bad attitudes stick out like a sore thumb because they would rather whine about being punished for somebody else's actions than work hard and do better.
Is it effective with adults in the NBA is a different question but the Lakers are so young that I think it's the correct way for Luke to go about punishing players. Hopefully this leads to Ingram getting on the other guys when they don't play with the appropriate focus and energy. |
What impact would working harder/doing better have if they're just gonna get punished for someone else's actions regardless? |
You can reward them with more playing time, shots etc. than the other players who are the reasons for the punishments. The initial punishment of everybody sends a message to the team about accountability and reminds them that you win and lose as a team. But after that the player who was the reason for the punishment can receive further punishment.
Example is you bench the starting lineup for the beginning of the second half but once they come back in, the players who weren't the reason for the punishment receive more PT than the ones who were. |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
Don't give us ideas...
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | tox wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
So next time we get a troll or spammer, mods should suspend everyone on the entire site for a week, but allow the rule abiders back in after 2-3 days, something like that?
Then the spamming slows or stops and the niceities increase? |
LG is not a team. The Lakers are a team. The analogy stops there. |
Sure we are. I mean, we're a community. A team is just a community on a smaller scale. But ok. Would you fire an entire team of interns if one guy can't show up to work on time? I would hope not.
Like I said before, it's a cool concept in theory but it often backfires when utilized in a real world setting. That's why it's not employed very often in the real world. At the very least, it has to be used very sparingly to avoid backfiring which will happen when it is applied consistently. |
No, because the production of a team of interns does not nearly depend on internal accountability and camaraderie like a basketball team does. If an intern is performing badly, you don't need other interns to tell him off. You have the boss do that. And if he argues? Fire him and replace him with someone new.
The Lakers can't just ditch Russell or Ingram or Randle without setting the franchise backwards, and the players know that. That gives them more leverage on their bosses (i.e. the coaches/ FO) versus a group of interns. That's why instead of forcing the coach (i.e. the boss) to unilaterally hold the team accountable (which will be ineffective), you instead leverage a team-wise culture of accountability.
That's why on court leaders are so valuable. The Lakers don't have that guy and so I don't mind trying to stoke that in our players. If this technique causes Ingram to light into Russell or Clarkson or Randle for blowing a coverage or not running back on defense, that to me is a positive thing. Because you can't expect Luke to do that unilaterally. It'll never work. |
Fair enough. To me, that type of action is more like a hail mary than something that can be consistently be applied and consistently be effective.
Me? Not a fan of the idea of benching the starters in the middle of the game. I've seen it done for a 4th quarter, even with vets, and as the exception, not the rule. That, I can live with. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | Anyone who has ever played team sports knows this is very common.
When we ran "lines" in high school timed at the end of practice, if anyone on the team didn't make it in time, we all had to run again.
The idea being that the will of the team is forged in being able to count on one another and that it isn't about the individual.
Acting like it is OK to disrespect the coach over something as small as this? Stupid, petty and weak and I guarantee Ingram isn't thinking that way. |
It's extremely common and effective. I'm amazed that people are arguing against it and it's making me question if they actually ever played team sports. |
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Don Draper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Location: LA --> Bay Area
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | Anyone who has ever played team sports knows this is very common.
When we ran "lines" in high school timed at the end of practice, if anyone on the team didn't make it in time, we all had to run again.
The idea being that the will of the team is forged in being able to count on one another and that it isn't about the individual.
Acting like it is OK to disrespect the coach over something as small as this? Stupid, petty and weak and I guarantee Ingram isn't thinking that way. |
If that whole "timed running lines" thing did anything for my team, it was to make all of us hate the coach. Hated that stupid (bleep) drill. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Luke 300!  |
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panamaniac
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Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11239
Location: PTY
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Happy Birthday Coach Walton! |
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Megaton
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Don Draper wrote: |
If that whole "timed running lines" thing did anything for my team, it was to make all of us hate the coach. Hated that stupid (bleep) drill. |
Me too, I hated running lines at the end of practice. I will tell you though, tired and cranky as I was...I didn't want to be the guy not making it in time so we would all have to run again. Dudes would get sour quick on that!
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Luke doesn't play Zu in the 4th b/c of his defense..as If Randle/Nance has had much success in the 4th this season(-8 points per 100 poss for the year)
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | Don Draper wrote: |
If that whole "timed running lines" thing did anything for my team, it was to make all of us hate the coach. Hated that stupid (bleep) drill. |
Me too, I hated running lines at the end of practice. I will tell you though, tired and cranky as I was...I didn't want to be the guy not making it in time so we would all have to run again. Dudes would get sour quick on that! |
And that's when those guys who don't make it get called out. It's a great tool to teach a roster to hold themselves accountable. |
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pio2u
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: |
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I am fascinated to see how Luke would coach a more veteran or balanced team.
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danzag
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Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: |
I am fascinated to see how Luke would coach a more veteran or balanced team. |
He would coach it to a 39-4 record  |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| I'm tired of Luke giving guys props after every blowout loss. He's running this team like it's a summer jamboree. He needs to start calling guys out, specifically, otherwise they'll never grasp concepts such as team defense, ball movement, etc. which require focus and discipline. |
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tox
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Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grind wrote: | | I'm tired of Luke giving guys props after every blowout loss. He's running this team like it's a summer jamboree. He needs to start calling guys out, specifically, otherwise they'll never grasp concepts such as team defense, ball movement, etc. which require focus and discipline. |
We lost by 9 after an epic choke job while benching half of our legit rotation level guys. I don't really know how you can call out your team in good faith based on results alone.
The defense and ball movement weren't bad against the Wiz so why would he criticize them for that? Just because they lost? |
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