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shnxx
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 Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | This all seems ridiculous to me.
I dont there should be laws that specify that Transgender people could use bathrooms that are different than their genitalia. But also, I dont think that it should be a big deal if they are caught using the wrong bathroom. Sneak in and keep it low key. If you get busted, it's a slap on the wrist. Maybe a warning.
But laws always have loopholes to be exploited, and I have no doubt that some creep would try to exploit laws so that he could pretty much hang out in the ladies room when he shouldn't. Those dudes scare me more than Transgender people do. But when big government gets involved in situations like this, I see that there is big potential for unintended consequences.
Though I'm also against the idea of a law specifically stating that you can only use the restroom related to what's on your birth certificate. If you've gone all the way with a sex change, then your birth certificate shouldn't matter in using a restroom. |
I am pretty much in agreement with you here. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: |
But laws always have loopholes to be exploited, and I have no doubt that some creep would try to exploit laws so that he could pretty much hang out in the ladies room when he shouldn't. |
Anybody can walk into any bathroom and do anything, regardless of their gender identity, sexual preference, etc. If some kind of violation or assault is committed, they can be prosecuted accordingly. Has nothing to do with trans people.
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Wilt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others.
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex?
I am not sure what sexually dimorphic characteristics are socially constructed and how you'd know for certain that this is the case, but such characteristics are not pertinent to the issue here, which is the legal determination of gender that the society can agree upon. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies.
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
That's an interesting definition of gender. As a scientist, my definition of gender differs from yours, but I think we're getting sidetracked in semantics.
Our discussion is about what is the legal definition of gender, which is something that should be objectively, rather than subjectively determined.
If legal determination of gender is both dynamic and subjective, then the distinction between a male and a female completely breaks down, since a male can be a female at any time and reverse without surgical interventions. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
That's an interesting definition of gender. As a scientist, my definition of gender differs from yours, but I think we're getting sidetracked in semantics.
Our discussion is about what is the legal definition of gender, which is something that should be objectively, rather than subjectively determined.
If legal determination of gender is both dynamic and subjective, then the distinction between a male and a female completely breaks down, since a male can be a female at any time and reverse without surgical interventions. |
Much the same argument has been forwarded for the denial of legitimate status to homosexuals.
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right?
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Last edited by frijolero01 on Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
That's an interesting definition of gender. As a scientist, my definition of gender differs from yours, but I think we're getting sidetracked in semantics.
Our discussion is about what is the legal definition of gender, which is something that should be objectively, rather than subjectively determined.
If legal determination of gender is both dynamic and subjective, then the distinction between a male and a female completely breaks down, since a male can be a female at any time and reverse without surgical interventions. |
Much the same argument has been forwarded for the denial of legitimate status to homosexuals. |
Homosexuals are not trans-sexuals, so I don't think it's relevant to the discussion here.
Once again, I'm not really sure what is the definition of female being proposed here.
At which point, does a male become a female legally?
On a un-related note, homosexuals are not a separate gender, homosexual preference is not thought to be dynamically changing and hetero- or homosexual preferences are not legally regulated (although other rarer sexual preferences deemed harmful are illegal in the US). |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
That's an interesting definition of gender. As a scientist, my definition of gender differs from yours, but I think we're getting sidetracked in semantics.
Our discussion is about what is the legal definition of gender, which is something that should be objectively, rather than subjectively determined.
If legal determination of gender is both dynamic and subjective, then the distinction between a male and a female completely breaks down, since a male can be a female at any time and reverse without surgical interventions. |
Much the same argument has been forwarded for the denial of legitimate status to homosexuals. |
no, because a homosexual man still considers himself a man just like a lesbian woman, considers herself a woman and not a man, unicorn, power ranger, etc.
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Wilt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right? |
But you'd be lying. Just with your example, you're delegitimizing transgender people and their struggles, as people used to delegitimize homosexuals, as 24 said. It doesn't work like that.
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right? |
But you'd be lying. Just with your example, you're delegitimizing transgender people and their struggles, as people used to delegitimize homosexuals, as 24 said. It doesn't work like that. |
but the science is still there no? You can dress however you want or do whatever you want. In the end, you can't deny the scientific facts that you are tied to either one or the other.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | shnxx wrote: |
So you're saying that gender is not equivalent to biological sex? |
No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
That's an interesting definition of gender. As a scientist, my definition of gender differs from yours, but I think we're getting sidetracked in semantics.
Our discussion is about what is the legal definition of gender, which is something that should be objectively, rather than subjectively determined.
If legal determination of gender is both dynamic and subjective, then the distinction between a male and a female completely breaks down, since a male can be a female at any time and reverse without surgical interventions. |
Much the same argument has been forwarded for the denial of legitimate status to homosexuals. |
no, because a homosexual man still considers himself a man just like a lesbian woman, considers herself a woman and not a man, unicorn, power ranger, etc. |
You missed the point entirely. Folks used "science" and "biology" to say that because homosexuals cannot procreate, they are a biological aberration that does not merit the benefits of their unions being legally recognized, nor their "lifestyle" protected from discrimination.
But to your point, it is kind of absurd to think that a gay man can be in the men's bathroom, but somehow a person born with female equipment but identifying as male is some threat to the balance of the world.
Not to mention many countries have unisex bathrooms, and their societies haven't collapsed under the terror of peeping perverts.
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Wilt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right? |
But you'd be lying. Just with your example, you're delegitimizing transgender people and their struggles, as people used to delegitimize homosexuals, as 24 said. It doesn't work like that. |
but the science is still there no? You can dress however you want or do whatever you want. In the end, you can't deny the scientific facts that you are tied to either one or the other. |
Well, there's also people that are intersex. I don't know the exact figures, but there are people whose sex is ambiguous.
As I said above, you're treating two things - sex and gender - as being identical 100% of the time. And for some people, who go through genuine struggles, the two do not always align. And providing examples where you wake up one day and decide to become a woman so you can go to a women's restroom doesn't get us anywhere.
This is a complicated issue that doesn't require rigidity that some demand.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: | Has anyone in this thread called trans-sexuals perverts or deviants?
Nobody is suggesting that they are. |
Curt Schilling sure as hell did. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right? |
But you'd be lying. Just with your example, you're delegitimizing transgender people and their struggles, as people used to delegitimize homosexuals, as 24 said. It doesn't work like that. |
but the science is still there no? You can dress however you want or do whatever you want. In the end, you can't deny the scientific facts that you are tied to either one or the other. |
Science doesn't have anything to say about whether any specific individual's genitals have anything to do with their gender identification, or what any of that has to do with bathroom use. A person with a penis pissing in the women's restroom is not really and specifically a biological question
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | Has anyone in this thread called trans-sexuals perverts or deviants?
Nobody is suggesting that they are. |
Curt Schilling sure as hell did. |
No he did not.
He shared a post which said, those who disagree are judged to be "narrow-minded, judgmental, unloving, racist bigot who needs to die" |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | No, it's not, as transgender people have testified. For most people, their gender equals their sex. For a small percentage, it doesn't. As I said above, you're defining this issue only through biology. And through that view, gender is only defined by the existence of a penis or a vag*na. And society doesn't have to agree on a precise definition of gender, as you seem to demand.
Gender and gender difference, as social constructs, have been studied for a while now. It's nothing new. Even in my field of history we've studied gender as a social construct and an instrument for oppression. We don't study genitalia, we study how gender difference is projected and how it impacts social roles. In India, for instance, certain groups of men were viewed by the British as feminine, while others were viewed as masculine, as a way to divide and conquer and establish social hierarchies. |
If you use gender in that sense, I'm not sure where the logic takes you. When we talk about transsexuals, we aren't talking about behavior. The law already protects people from sex based stereotyping -- masculine women, feminine men, etc. Transsexuals are qualitatively different. We are talking about a psychological condition in which there is a disconnection between the mind and the body.
I understand that transgender activists don't like to look at it that way, but I think that this is the correct analysis. These are people who have a problem, and they need to be treated with compassion. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | Has anyone in this thread called trans-sexuals perverts or deviants?
Nobody is suggesting that they are. |
Curt Schilling sure as hell did. |
No he did not.
He shared a post which said, those who disagree are judged to be "narrow-minded, judgmental, unloving, racist bigot who needs to die" |
Take a look at the actual post.
http://nesn.com/2016/04/curt-schilling-shares-anti-transgender-meme-responds-to-backlash-as-youd-expect/ |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | shnxx
Since you're focusing heavily on biology, I think the word you're looking for is sex. Gender, while certainly related to one's sex, can also encompass characteristics that are socially constructed. Gender and gender difference comes with certain expectations, which, through history, have been exploited to establish and legitimize inequalities. That's why, as ocho said, the issue of gender is not as rigid as it might seem. For transgender people, the issue goes beyond genitalia, it's about how they feel and how they want to be treated by others. |
Your're right. I'm married to a woman with 3 kids, pee standing up. get aroused around beautiful women get erections, etc, but I identify as a woman,. So therefore, I will use the women's restroom and nobody will or can tell me otherwise right? |
But you'd be lying. Just with your example, you're delegitimizing transgender people and their struggles, as people used to delegitimize homosexuals, as 24 said. It doesn't work like that. |
but the science is still there no? You can dress however you want or do whatever you want. In the end, you can't deny the scientific facts that you are tied to either one or the other. |
Science doesn't have anything to say about whether any specific individual's genitals have anything to do with their gender identification, or what any of that has to do with bathroom use. A person with a penis pissing in the women's restroom is not really and specifically a biological question |
but there still facts. Proven scientific facts. We can all say that the lakers could've contended for a championship last season but, FACTS prove that the team sucked from top to bottom. You can identify as whatever your little imagination wants but, in the end, the facts say you are either a man or a woman.
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | Has anyone in this thread called trans-sexuals perverts or deviants?
Nobody is suggesting that they are. |
Curt Schilling sure as hell did. |
No he did not.
He shared a post which said, those who disagree are judged to be "narrow-minded, judgmental, unloving, racist bigot who needs to die" |
Take a look at the actual post.
http://nesn.com/2016/04/curt-schilling-shares-anti-transgender-meme-responds-to-backlash-as-youd-expect/ |
Where is the part where he has called trans-sexuals perverts? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dude. |
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dude/dudette.
Please post a quote of anything Schilling has said that corresponds to what you claimed, Schilling "sure as hell did" (i.e. trans-sexuals are perverts). |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Schilling is a douche and should've expressed his beliefs in a more respectful way but, the idea behind it is not false.
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: |
But laws always have loopholes to be exploited, and I have no doubt that some creep would try to exploit laws so that he could pretty much hang out in the ladies room when he shouldn't. |
Anybody can walk into any bathroom and do anything, regardless of their gender identity, sexual preference, etc. If some kind of violation or assault is committed, they can be prosecuted accordingly. Has nothing to do with trans people. |
To me, it's not about trans people. But I'm not a fan of creating law that will make it easier for men to be in the restroom with girls. |
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