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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm throwing the BS flag. Yeah, like Wendy's wasn't planning to go to an automated system anyway. |
I'm sure it was always on the roadmap. Implementation would only when costs justified it.
The new law sped up the timeline. |
Again, I'm throwing the BS flag. Every time big business cuts jobs through automation or by moving plants overseas, they blame it on the workers. It's the unions. It's the minimum wage law. It's Obamacare. Yada yada yada. Don't be a sucker. There was probably some version of this when slavery was abolished. We can't afford to grow cotton anymore! |
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Reflexx
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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If I owned a fast food joint, those $15/hr positions are only going to proven workers with experience. One good worker in fast food is worth two or three clueless ones; especially with kiosks available.
I may eventually plan to get rid of cashiers all together. Instead I'd have a Customer Service Host/Hostess to assist people with the machines, greet customers, etc... |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | As the kiosks become more prevalent in fast food restaurants, people will get better at using them. Some will be slow, but there are also people who are painfully slow when ordering from a real live person too.
Top workers should probably keep their jobs. They are better than a kiosk. But hiring new workers without experience will slow down considerably. Goodbye to high-schoolers getting summer jobs. Goodbye to new high school graduates learning about working through these entry-level jobs. |
Jack in the Box has been using Kiosks here in Seattle for almost a decade, and their customers never got proficient enough that they'd still ask the live cashier for help. Got to the point that now all they are is decoration in the stores since few people even bothers trying to use them, even with the free taco offer.
Kiosk |
For now they are still the exception rather than the rule. This will change when there's a line of 10 people for the one live cashier, but 4 open kiosks. |
At some venues? Sure. But I think many fail to realise that not everyone is as technologically proficient as they are and that less proficient group likely makes up the largest percentage of fast foods "Regular" customers. Many fast food customers practically live on the junk those places peddle. Many of them aren't in the category that "casual" fast food visitors are it. I eat at fast food under 50 times annually. I'd venture a guess that most who approach my level of technological prowess would be under that 50 visit/year mark as well. But the non-technologically proficient? Their visit totals are likely above 300 visits annually. It would be a bad business decision to alienate those less technologically savvy customers as they represent the bulk of their customer base.
Seniors, the under-educated, moms corralling multiple kids, etc, are all groups that display difficulty in adequately managing automated systems. They in turn ruin the customer experience for those who are technologically proficient and those folks tend to bring more annual dollars to a business. I, and many others, when approaching an automated checkout at the supermarket, do a quick visual survey of the line. If there are too many in the above described groups waiting in line in front of us, we'll sit out potential purchases down and walk out the door. It's just not worth the aggravation. There's always someplace else to go instead, and that's a superior choice compared to waiting for these folks stuck in the 19th century to complete their sociological experiment with joining the 21st century. They need to put up a sign that explains that the automated checkout simply wasn't designed for folks who would be better served in a 19th century lineup with a patient cashier ready to serve them. But just like they do with the 10 items or less sign, they'd probably just ignore it. |
Even if they don't completely replace humans, I can see them reducing their need to hire as many workers. Its happened in the grocery businesss with self checkout lines. They don't need to hire as many people. So in the end there will be fewer $15 fast food jobs available. |
Yep, and that's a good thing imo. Fewer people standing around industrial machinery and instead hanging around a benign computer screen. It's a natural maturation of the workforce. First we automated farm processes and took people out of the picking fields, then we automated the factories and took people out of the danger rooms. This is yet another natural step in the maturation process of the workplace. At some point the govt is going to get a clue and realise that it needs to start dis-incentivizing needless births. There simply isn't a need for all those extra bodies standing around with nothing productive to do. People need to stop having so many dang children. Time to start heavily taxing families that choose to go beyond a 2 count on the Xerox process.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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shnxx
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | shnxx wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Its inevitable. Automation will eventually replace a lot of jobs humans once performed. |
Yup.
Not just taxi drivers, fast food workers, factory workers... but also white-collar workers, like bankers, customer support center workers, pharmacists, etc. |
I think task- and function-driven jobs (like the ones you note above) are much easier to target for automation than ones where the individual filling the role is paid to think. Thus, I expect to see many white collar jobs resisting automation for some time ... |
Yeah, to really replace white-collar jobs where complex decisions are made, you would need something between artificial narrow intelligence or general intelligence.
Certainly, narrow intelligence algorithms are poised to augment or replace specific highly intelligent decisions (e.g. the game Go is a good example of specific highly intelligent decision where there are structured output) within 10 years. |
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Deathstroke
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| They will still need employees working there to make sure things are running smoothly and to cook the food, clean, etc. Ive seen kiosks for ordering in fast food joints since 2012 and many other places have app ordering which is even easier than kiosk orders. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | They will still need employees working there to make sure things are running smoothly and to cook the food, clean, etc. Ive seen kiosks for ordering in fast food joints since 2012 and many other places have app ordering which is even easier than kiosk orders. |
Yep, but eventually I can see a lot of fast food chains go the route of having a barebones staff. There will still be places like In-n-Out that won't automate but of course they have higher quality ingredients and people don't go to In-n-Out expecting the cheapest quality food. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm throwing the BS flag. Yeah, like Wendy's wasn't planning to go to an automated system anyway. |
I'm sure it was always on the roadmap. Implementation would only when costs justified it.
The new law sped up the timeline. |
Again, I'm throwing the BS flag. Every time big business cuts jobs through automation or by moving plants overseas, they blame it on the workers. It's the unions. It's the minimum wage law. It's Obamacare. Yada yada yada. Don't be a sucker. There was probably some version of this when slavery was abolished. We can't afford to grow cotton anymore! |
I think it did speed up the timeline actually. But not because of the $15/hr wage hike per se, but more, what that wage hike means for the next several years down the road after it. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2016 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | I'm throwing the BS flag. Yeah, like Wendy's wasn't planning to go to an automated system anyway. |
I'm sure it was always on the roadmap. Implementation would only when costs justified it.
The new law sped up the timeline. |
Again, I'm throwing the BS flag. Every time big business cuts jobs through automation or by moving plants overseas, they blame it on the workers. It's the unions. It's the minimum wage law. It's Obamacare. Yada yada yada. Don't be a sucker. There was probably some version of this when slavery was abolished. We can't afford to grow cotton anymore! |
The thing is businesses will always move faster than government to implement changes. I know the $15 minimum wage is a couple of years out from being fully implemented, by then most businesses will have already downscaled or adjust their staffing to save employment costs even with a $15 minimum wage law. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:28 am Post subject: |
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^ Yup. And they're doing it for all of the reasons AH listed, not for any one in particular. There are always initiatives to reduce costs, or increase revenue, and sometimes, certain trends can accelerate the priority of those initiatives.
I'm in marketing, but, back in the mid/late 2000s, we had been talking about preparing for mobile optimization of websites and looking at mobile applications. When the trends started really going up on mobile usage, we accelerated our plans. Not because the share of mobile web traffic was at 10%, but because it was at like 3% the year before and so we knew we had to get in front of it. |
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LakersRGolden
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| The east coast convenience store chain, WaWa, has had touchscreen automation for over a decade and they still employ a lot of people to clean, restock inventory, food preparation and run the cashier counter. But the actually serve quality food products. Wendy's is complete trash. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: |
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This illustrates one of Marx's issues with capitalism, that capitalism will create excess labor. Now I'm a fan of capitalism (as a vital part of a mixed economy) and I want it to continue and thrive, but if we continue to create a society where technology replaces human labor, what will humans do?
One solution could be through their vote. Due to their frustration, we will see a bigger and bigger government that will throttle mechanization, either through tax code or laws requiring employees to perform tasks that could be automated--as Oregon does with pumping gasoline.
Or they go to the old standby, they revolt.
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | The east coast convenience store chain, WaWa, has had touchscreen automation for over a decade and they still employ a lot of people to clean, restock inventory, food preparation and run the cashier counter. But the actually serve quality food products. Wendy's is complete trash. |
Spicy Chicken Sandwich is the best sandwich on the planet. And their fries is GOOD. And their frosties are good.
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | This illustrates one of Marx's issues with capitalism, that capitalism will create excess labor. Now I'm a fan of capitalism (as a vital part of a mixed economy) and I want it to continue and thrive, but if we continue to create a society where technology replaces human labor, what will humans do? |
Soylent green.  |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | This illustrates one of Marx's issues with capitalism, that capitalism will create excess labor. Now I'm a fan of capitalism (as a vital part of a mixed economy) and I want it to continue and thrive, but if we continue to create a society where technology replaces human labor, what will humans do?
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But won't there be more tech jobs, more engineering jobs and tech support jobs? |
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marga86
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | If this is true, I'd boycott them, but to do that, I'd have eat there in the first place.
It seems that the places that talk of this, or other anti-worker, anti-consumer, or anti-environment sentiments, I rarely frequent without even the political consideration. Maybe crappy businesses just have crappy policies.
Regardless, I have no use for businesses that take profits over workers to such a level. Hopefully, enough people will feel as I do and force their automation to just turn to useless rust. |
Yea, but it's not that simple.
I mean, i myself agree with your ideology, but you and i know it doesnt work like that. Every investor wants a return on their dollar at the end of the day. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | This illustrates one of Marx's issues with capitalism, that capitalism will create excess labor. Now I'm a fan of capitalism (as a vital part of a mixed economy) and I want it to continue and thrive, but if we continue to create a society where technology replaces human labor, what will humans do?
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But won't there be more tech jobs, more engineering jobs and tech support jobs? |
Of course there will be more STEM type jobs, but I bet it'd be about 1 for 10.
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shnxx
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | This illustrates one of Marx's issues with capitalism, that capitalism will create excess labor. Now I'm a fan of capitalism (as a vital part of a mixed economy) and I want it to continue and thrive, but if we continue to create a society where technology replaces human labor, what will humans do?
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But won't there be more tech jobs, more engineering jobs and tech support jobs? |
Of course there will be more STEM type jobs, but I bet it'd be about 1 for 10. |
Tech companies tend to be much more efficient so they can get a lot done with very few people, so I doubt that tech jobs alone will make up for the loss of jobs.
One reasonable argument is that every previous technological innovation has been met with new types of industries and new jobs.
A reasonable counter-argument is that this upcoming technological innovation will replace not only labor but human intelligence and decision making, which will replace a much larger portion of jobs available.
A middle-position between these extreme viewpoints would be that these changes will happen slowly enough that society will have time to adjust without making quick drastic changes in governance.
I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I think all of the above are plausible scenarios.
These changes will most likely whet the appetite of the masses to further increase centralized economic planning.
As a classical liberal, I believe these changes will lead to proposals such as universal basic income, which will have negative effects on individual liberty and incentives for innovation for the society as a whole. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| As a fiscally-conservative Marxist, I marvel at how technological advances have broken societal relationships between the classes, leading to class conflict between those who control capital, those who own the means of production, those who are employed within the technology-enabling class, and those who are simply without. |
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shnxx
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | | As a fiscally-conservative Marxist, I marvel at how technological advances have broken societal relationships between the classes, leading to class conflict between those who control capital, those who own the means of production, those who are employed within the technology-enabling class, and those who are simply without. |
This is pretty interesting.
So you're a Marxist? Culturally or economically or both?
What do you think about critical theory? |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| shnxx wrote: | | angrypuppy wrote: | | As a fiscally-conservative Marxist, I marvel at how technological advances have broken societal relationships between the classes, leading to class conflict between those who control capital, those who own the means of production, those who are employed within the technology-enabling class, and those who are simply without. |
This is pretty interesting.
So you're a Marxist? Culturally or economically or both?
What do you think about critical theory? |
I'm a Marxist insofar as his perspective was correct, however I'm not sold that his prescription was practical. Ripe apples do fall. And yes, that brings me closer to adhering to the social spectrum within critical theory. I do believe in social engineering, particularly within regulation. Though capitalism is an efficient means of production and distribution of goods and services, that shouldn't be confused with desirable social outcomes (pollution, corporate malfeasance, inequitable wealth distribution, predatory consumer behavior, corporate propaganda, etc.). That which makes us humanists isn't the celebration that we have accomplished that beasts cannot, but rather that we celebrate by applying reason and compassion to those forces that strip us of our humanity and equate us to that of beasts. |
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Thugnomoe
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Joined: 19 Jul 2005
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Location: unfortunately not Los Angeles anymore
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Reflexx wrote: | As the kiosks become more prevalent in fast food restaurants, people will get better at using them. Some will be slow, but there are also people who are painfully slow when ordering from a real live person too.
Top workers should probably keep their jobs. They are better than a kiosk. But hiring new workers without experience will slow down considerably. Goodbye to high-schoolers getting summer jobs. Goodbye to new high school graduates learning about working through these entry-level jobs. |
exactly.. that was the point of these jobs..
the argument of "I can't support a family on a min wage job.." is so stupid because you WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO!
rant over.. |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Thugnomoe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | As the kiosks become more prevalent in fast food restaurants, people will get better at using them. Some will be slow, but there are also people who are painfully slow when ordering from a real live person too.
Top workers should probably keep their jobs. They are better than a kiosk. But hiring new workers without experience will slow down considerably. Goodbye to high-schoolers getting summer jobs. Goodbye to new high school graduates learning about working through these entry-level jobs. |
exactly.. that was the point of these jobs..
the argument of "I can't support a family on a min wage job.." is so stupid because you WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO! |
As long as society tolerates an unnecessarily high birth rate, then it will find itself responsible for those it welcomes into a situation of scarcity. Fact is, there aren't enough credible jobs available to support the sheer numbers being birthed. The human condition guarantees that not all of those birthed will be capable of doing the jobs that are of actual need. That means until a point where society decides to arrive at a more realistic birth rate - it will have to tolerate what is essentially the "workfare" that these "minimum wage" jobs represent.
It's simple people. Stop shatting out massive numbers of mouths to feed and conditions will improve.
/rant over..
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Thugnomoe wrote: | | Reflexx wrote: | As the kiosks become more prevalent in fast food restaurants, people will get better at using them. Some will be slow, but there are also people who are painfully slow when ordering from a real live person too.
Top workers should probably keep their jobs. They are better than a kiosk. But hiring new workers without experience will slow down considerably. Goodbye to high-schoolers getting summer jobs. Goodbye to new high school graduates learning about working through these entry-level jobs. |
exactly.. that was the point of these jobs..
the argument of "I can't support a family on a min wage job.." is so stupid because you WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO! |
As long as society tolerates an unnecessarily high birth rate, then it will find itself responsible for those it welcomes into a situation of scarcity. Fact is, there aren't enough credible jobs available to support the sheer numbers being birthed. The human condition guarantees that not all of those birthed will be capable of doing the jobs that are of actual need. That means until a point where society decides to arrive at a more realistic birth rate - it will have to tolerate what is essentially the "workfare" that these "minimum wage" jobs represent.
It's simple people. Stop shatting out massive numbers of mouths to feed and conditions will improve.
/rant over.. |
The problem:
"And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Why are politicians and others pushing our schooling and social problems off on business owners?
The problems these humans face isn't economic.. it is holistic and emotional.. they stay at what are supposed to be high turnover first time jobs.. why? Why? The schools suck the (bleep) of the government which is owned by the 1%'ers..
1%'ers don't want competent self sufficient citizens.. they want credit card debt and home loan defaulters.. They want ill citizens both mentally and physically..
Money runs this nation and schools don't do anywhere near enough to teach children how to earn it. |
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