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lakersboy
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 Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Lets re-visit history to learn whether it's wise to trade away rookie talent for established veterans. I'll mention a few off the top of my head and feel free to throw in whatever examples you remember.
1983: Clippers trade #4 pick to Lakers for 28 y/o Lakers pg Norm Nixon. 6 years later, after 2 achilles injuries and 4 seasons played, Nixon retired at the end of Scott's best year.
1996: Charlotte traded #13 pick to Lakers for 28 y/o Vlade Divac and instant gratification. 2 years later Vlade went to Sacramento.
2011: Pacers traded #15, 20 y/o pick Kawhi Leonard to Spurs for 25 y/o George Hill. 5 years later both are still on respective teams and Kawhi is a star while Hill helps keep the Pacers in the middle of weak East playoff teams.
When rookies don't live up to potential it justifies short term rental trades, such as Celtics trading Jeff Green in '07 to assemble the big 3 to win 1 title.
Last edited by lakersboy on Sun May 22, 2016 2:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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lakersboy
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerEric wrote: | I personally believe that Ingram/Simmons and Russell will be Mega-stars. That's why I don't deal the 2nd pick even for George. The team is too young with no guarantee of solid veteran contributors. That obviously could change but then you shorten the window, whereas you can have 5 young guys grow with a young, bright coach. Now if you have a bunch of injury-prone, erratic talents with a coaching system in disarray (Philly)....then you have to change the dynamic.
I believe that Randle, Clarkson, and Nance Jr will be core of solid starters/6th men. Not everyone you draft is going to be an all-star but solid contributors. Randle as we all know has the ability to be an all-star but he has to figure out his offensive game. Clarkson, we will get a better indication of who he is under Luke. Nance is that guy that will blossom under Walton. He's the real steal! |
Media keeps fueling the "trade, trade, trade" attitude when it's totally not necessary. They don't care if it doesn't work out because they don't have interest in 1 team. If your team does a bonehead move like the Hornets trading away Kobe for a guy who stayed 2 seasons, you never live it down.
The Lakers have young talent that can grow together and keep people's interest for years to come. If a trade doesn't work out, you've taken years off the life of your team and you're soon back in the lottery, trying to figure it out.
I prefer the Spurs model, even the Warriors. Keep your core together. If you have to trade an occasional 1 for 1 piece to bring in a part that makes sense, do it. Don't gut your team just to experiment. |
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LakerLuke
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Except for the great defense part.
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
LOL only got close to 20ppg one year in his whole career and wasn't a great defender.
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Happy213
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| LakerEric wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | A 3rd pick I was totally open to trading.
2nd pick, nope. Only if it's someone at the very least in the level of Paul George.
Keeping it is my preference. We have 60m in cap space! |
My thinking as well. The 3rd pick yes. Ingram is going to be a bonafide star!! You don't deal him. I would deal Randle or Clarkson before Ingram but those guys aren't going to have nearly the same value. As much as I want the playoffs but if we are running a terrific system and have excellent communication between coach and young core...I'll be patient as hell as they grow together! |
Thank you! I prefer Ingram over Simmons 10 out of 10 times. Muscles the easiest to part. Simmons lack of effort and omg, his Jumpers??? 100% would trade randle with clarkson if a trade was on the table, that being said. If it's Demarcus or Derozen, I'll never forgive the Lakers, That's suicide. |
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tox
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| lakersboy wrote: | Lets re-visit history to learn whether it's wise to trade away rookie talent for established veterans. I'll mention a few off the top of my head and feel free to throw in whatever examples you remember.
1983: Clippers trade #4 pick to Lakers for 28 y/o Lakers pg Norm Nixon. 6 years later, after 2 achilles injuries and 4 seasons played, Nixon retired at the end of Scott's best year.
1996: Charlotte traded #13 pick to Lakers for 28 y/o Vlade Divac and instant gratification. 2 years later Vlade went to Sacramento.
2011: Pacers traded #15, 20 y/o pick Kawhi Leonard to Spurs for 25 y/o George Hill. 5 years later both are still on respective teams and Kawhi is a star while Hill helps keep the Pacers in the middle of weak East playoff teams.
When rookies don't live up to potential it justifies short term rental trades, such as Celtics trading Jeff Green in '07 to assemble the big 3 to win 1 title. |
Moot point. How many of those teams are the Lakers? You can make the case that the Lakers trading for a great prospect for a star is smarter than any other team doing that. Why? Because they are more likely to snowball that into more star acquisitions by virtue of being LA. It's not quite the same thing, but look at your Green/ Celtics example. Your point is that it was a good deal because Green didn't live up to potential, but even if Green panned out, it was a smart deal for the Celtics. That core had 5 years of contention; they won in 2008, might have won in 2009 if KG stayed healthy (I still pick the Lakers); nearly won 2010; and had a puncher's chance in 2012. That is a trade you make any day, as a few luckier breaks and maybe they get 2-3 titles. |
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lakerzkb8
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Draft Ingram. The kid is 18 and is fundamentally sound. He moves well and has an outside shot. Sign some veterans. Play it cool and patient. |
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noahp45
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Dumb, unless we can get Westbrook or KD we keep this pick draft who ever 76ers leave us. No one else in the NBA is worth this pick.
And please please no one say Cousins |
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AC Green's V-Card
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
This is the list of players who have ever averaged 20/6/3 for their career: http://bkref.com/tiny/U8J2I
Strangely, I don't see Mike Dunleavy on that list. |
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Why is Mike Dunleavy Jr. name keep being brought up when talking about Ingram? If Ingram turned into MDJ the Lakers would be destroyed. That horror is something that can not happen. So, stop talking about it.
Ingram needs to be our Durant. Russell will be our Harden with better vision. That is a pretty damn good draft in back to back drafts.
Lakers surround those guys with excellent vets at key positions and the Lakers have a shot at creating some serious noise the next few years.
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leor_77
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | Why is Mike Dunleavy Jr. name keep being brought up when talking about Ingram? If Ingram turned into MDJ the Lakers would be destroyed. That horror is something that can not happen. So, stop talking about it.
Ingram needs to be our Durant. Russell will be our Harden with better vision. That is a pretty damn good draft in back to back drafts.
Lakers surround those guys with excellent vets at key positions and the Lakers have a shot at creating some serious noise the next few years. |
Because people are dumb and just want to compare people who look similar (i.e. skinny, long) and who went to the same college. |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | Why is Mike Dunleavy Jr. name keep being brought up when talking about Ingram? If Ingram turned into MDJ the Lakers would be destroyed. That horror is something that can not happen. So, stop talking about it.
Ingram needs to be our Durant. Russell will be our Harden with better vision. That is a pretty damn good draft in back to back drafts.
Lakers surround those guys with excellent vets at key positions and the Lakers have a shot at creating some serious noise the next few years. |
Because people are dumb and just want to compare people who look similar (i.e. skinny, long) and who went to the same college. |
Ingram reminds me of Jonathan Bender ... length size etc ... just hope he doesn't have the same injuries
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70sdude
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Whether the comparison is a close one or not, Ingram seems the best or second best talent available of the litter this Summer. Take him if he's there. I would have no trouble keeping him a Laker for years even if his NBA career arc (body of work, impact, skills and weaknesses over time) closely followed that of Prince. |
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rebirth
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | Why is Mike Dunleavy Jr. name keep being brought up when talking about Ingram? If Ingram turned into MDJ the Lakers would be destroyed. That horror is something that can not happen. So, stop talking about it.
Ingram needs to be our Durant. Russell will be our Harden with better vision. That is a pretty damn good draft in back to back drafts.
Lakers surround those guys with excellent vets at key positions and the Lakers have a shot at creating some serious noise the next few years. |
Because people are dumb and just want to compare people who look similar (i.e. skinny, long) and who went to the same college. |
Ingram reminds me of Jonathan Bender ... length size etc ... just hope he doesn't have the same injuries |
Brandon Ingram just needs to work on his handles and off the dribble game. I'm a Duke fan but Ingram had a tendency to lay bricks and go quiet a little to often, especially when he always had a size mismatch. He is a knockdown three point shooter though. He isn't a great man defender either as he gets blown by at times, but he can get some blocks. |
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Oliver Reed wrote: | Why is Mike Dunleavy Jr. name keep being brought up when talking about Ingram? If Ingram turned into MDJ the Lakers would be destroyed. That horror is something that can not happen. So, stop talking about it.
Ingram needs to be our Durant. Russell will be our Harden with better vision. That is a pretty damn good draft in back to back drafts.
Lakers surround those guys with excellent vets at key positions and the Lakers have a shot at creating some serious noise the next few years. |
I question Russell having better vision than Harden. Harden just averaged 7.5 assists as a two guard to go along with 29 points. |
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LakerLuke
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
This is the list of players who have ever averaged 20/6/3 for their career: http://bkref.com/tiny/U8J2I
Strangely, I don't see Mike Dunleavy on that list. |
Dunleavy's career highs were 19.1 and 5.9 and 3.5. So he would come just under that bar. |
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KingKobe20
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wait what some posters are comparing B Ingram to Mike Dunleavy???
I see a different attitude in Brandon's game. I highly doubt he settles for just "good enough". This kid has a killer instinct and after he puts up maybe 30-40 pounds in muscle he has the potential to be great.
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LakerLuke
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| KingKobe20 wrote: | Wait what some posters are comparing B Ingram to Mike Dunleavy???
I see a different attitude in Brandon's game. I highly doubt he settles for just "good enough". This kid has a killer instinct and after he puts up maybe 30-40 pounds in muscle he has the potential to be great. |
http://espn.go.com/nbadraft/tracker/player?playerId=18349
Positives: ....was the toughest matchup in college basketball this past season. He can score from the 3-point line, college or pro. He can score along the offensive glass. He can finish along the baseline and get fouled. When he's at the free-throw line, he makes a high percentage of shots.
Negatives: ....still needs to develop his body and he could use another season at Duke to be physically stronger. He's already got the mental aspect of the game down and is extremely coachable.
Summary: ....a top-five talent and should stay in the draft if he can go that high. He might not be ready to contribute because of his body, but he should be a Dirk Nowitzki-type talent for years to come in the NBA. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLuke wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
This is the list of players who have ever averaged 20/6/3 for their career: http://bkref.com/tiny/U8J2I
Strangely, I don't see Mike Dunleavy on that list. |
Dunleavy's career highs were 19.1 and 5.9 and 3.5. So he would come just under that bar. |
And the rest of his career he was 11/4/2... |
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LakerLuke
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
This is the list of players who have ever averaged 20/6/3 for their career: http://bkref.com/tiny/U8J2I
Strangely, I don't see Mike Dunleavy on that list. |
Dunleavy's career highs were 19.1 and 5.9 and 3.5. So he would come just under that bar. |
And the rest of his career he was 11/4/2... |
Yeah, but assuming he averaged Dunleavy's career highs, I wouldn't be all that satisfied. While that would be a good player, I'm hoping we can do better at the #2 spot. |
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| KingKobe20 wrote: | Wait what some posters are comparing B Ingram to Mike Dunleavy???
I see a different attitude in Brandon's game. I highly doubt he settles for just "good enough". This kid has a killer instinct and after he puts up maybe 30-40 pounds in muscle he has the potential to be great. |
He just needs to improve his handles, right now they are subpar. |
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kobeandgary
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLuke wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | AC Green's V-Card wrote: | | LakerLuke wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | Ok. I was referring to the assertion that the #2 pick would be the next Durant. |
No, I doubt Ingram will be as good as Durant. But if he develops into a 20/6/3 guy with a knockdown three and great defense, we'll have a Paul George-level All-Star on our hands. |
You just described Mike Dunleavy Jr. there. |
This is the list of players who have ever averaged 20/6/3 for their career: http://bkref.com/tiny/U8J2I
Strangely, I don't see Mike Dunleavy on that list. |
Dunleavy's career highs were 19.1 and 5.9 and 3.5. So he would come just under that bar. |
And the rest of his career he was 11/4/2... |
Yeah, but assuming he averaged Dunleavy's career highs, I wouldn't be all that satisfied. While that would be a good player, I'm hoping we can do better at the #2 spot. |
If there isn't that caliber player available at the two spot then there is just nothing you can do but take the best player and hope for the best (trades aside) |
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KingKobe20
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLuke wrote: | | KingKobe20 wrote: | Wait what some posters are comparing B Ingram to Mike Dunleavy???
I see a different attitude in Brandon's game. I highly doubt he settles for just "good enough". This kid has a killer instinct and after he puts up maybe 30-40 pounds in muscle he has the potential to be great. |
http://espn.go.com/nbadraft/tracker/player?playerId=18349
Positives: ....was the toughest matchup in college basketball this past season. He can score from the 3-point line, college or pro. He can score along the offensive glass. He can finish along the baseline and get fouled. When he's at the free-throw line, he makes a high percentage of shots.
Negatives: ....still needs to develop his body and he could use another season at Duke to be physically stronger. He's already got the mental aspect of the game down and is extremely coachable.
Summary: ....a top-five talent and should stay in the draft if he can go that high. He might not be ready to contribute because of his body, but he should be a Dirk Nowitzki-type talent for years to come in the NBA. |
From the 5-6 Duke games I watched this past season I definitely agree on the a Dirk comparisons. I feel his slashing game is a bit underrated and will be highlighted more in the NBA with the floor spacing. (No Zone defenses)
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