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rwongega Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 20510 Location: UCLA -> NY
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Fan0Bynum17 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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rwongega wrote: | I can see why women wouldn't want men in their restrooms. Have you seen the poop on the walls and pee on the seats in a men's restroom? |
I have to admit, the difference is pretty extraordinary sometimes. |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | rwongega wrote: | I can see why women wouldn't want men in their restrooms. Have you seen the poop on the walls and pee on the seats in a men's restroom? |
I have to admit, the difference is pretty extraordinary sometimes. |
I'm curious as to your perspective on the fact that the opponents of the idea of transgender access to restrooms focus solely on males who have transitioned to females and never mention the opposite. I would imagine that must be offensive. It is to me and I am completely unaffected by the controversy. |
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Fan0Bynum17 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:31 am Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | rwongega wrote: | I can see why women wouldn't want men in their restrooms. Have you seen the poop on the walls and pee on the seats in a men's restroom? |
I have to admit, the difference is pretty extraordinary sometimes. |
I'm curious as to your perspective on the fact that the opponents of the idea of transgender access to restrooms focus solely on males who have transitioned to females and never mention the opposite. I would imagine that must be offensive. It is to me and I am completely unaffected by the controversy. |
It's not surprising, transmen do tend to get overlooked in favor of transwomen quite a bit. Which is why a lot of movies/tv shows have transwomen characters and not transmen (they will tend to have more genderqueer females, if anything.) In this case, I think it's mainly because genetic males (and penises themselves) are seen as naturally predatory, and society tends to be more concerned about women's modesty and safety than men's. Transmen are seen more often as not a threat physically considering they were born female, and they're not a threat to hetero male sexuality, nor are they people that straight women have to compete with for male attention. Also, transmen tend to be more passable than transwomen, so transwomen tend to stand out more. I'm 6'1, so I stand out quite a bit most of the time. |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67314 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Men interacting with men, IMO, is not as acceptable as women with women.
I'm putting myself in the spotlight. I've watched numerous women on women films, 0 men on men. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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non-player zealot Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 21365
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I'd love for someone to give me (bleep) about being in the women's room, so I can have the privilege of laughing right in their moronic face. Believe me, I'll enjoy myself. |
WOW! That post begs to query. Are you transgender? |
Yes |
I hope you don't have to deal with anything like that even if it wouldn't bother you. I would hope that you at least feel some movement in a positive direction for LGBT communities in this country. Hardships are often the first steps towards justice, but it seems to me even as a heterosexual man that history is on your side. The fact that there's national discourse on this issue, Bible Belt idiots notwithstanding, is a positive. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL
SEDALE TRIBUTE
EDDIE DONX! |
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Fan0Bynum17 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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non-player zealot wrote: | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | jodeke wrote: | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I'd love for someone to give me (bleep) about being in the women's room, so I can have the privilege of laughing right in their moronic face. Believe me, I'll enjoy myself. |
WOW! That post begs to query. Are you transgender? |
Yes |
I hope you don't have to deal with anything like that even if it wouldn't bother you. I would hope that you at least feel some movement in a positive direction for LGBT communities in this country. Hardships are often the first steps towards justice, but it seems to me even as a heterosexual man that history is on your side. The fact that there's national discourse on this issue, Bible Belt idiots notwithstanding, is a positive. |
Couldn't agree more, I think this is all a net positive for the trans community. There may be some growing pains, but all it's doing is bringing trans issues into the spotlight, which is much better than us being in the dark. Every time some whackjob goes into a Target and screams about transpeople being perverts, it does us a favor, it just makes the position look even more ridiculous. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | gng930 wrote: | There's a very clear line between tolerance and forcing acceptance upon others. You could argue that the latter are being intolerant. |
There's nothing about bathroom policies that is "forcing acceptance" on anyone.
It's not about forcing acceptance. It's about providing equality. Transgender bathroom policies don't force acceptance anymore than saying black people shouldn't be barred from sharing restrooms with white people did a half century ago. |
Ok, that's not the same, and not a fair analogy IMO. If people were pushing for a "trans" only bathroom, then I would agree with you. (And I would agree that that is wrong).
But just curious -- do you think we should abolish everything that it for women only? Because, to allow it, would be akin to racial segregation from half a century ago?
Trans people are already using whatever bathroom they want right now, right? And there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I mean, what is the problem driving your sudden desire for unisex bathrooms? Are trans people being denied access? If that's the case, then perhaps merging facilities makes sense.
What is the problem that gets solved, by eliminating gender segregated restrooms? |
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jodeke Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67314 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Doing my best Martin Lawrence impression "Wat da problem is?" Unless you have a transgender detector how do you know the person isn't what they appear to be? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:36 am Post subject: |
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DaMuleRules wrote: | gng930 wrote: | There's a very clear line between tolerance and forcing acceptance upon others. You could argue that the latter are being intolerant. |
There's nothing about bathroom policies that is "forcing acceptance" on anyone.
It's not about forcing acceptance. It's about providing equality. Transgender bathroom policies don't force acceptance anymore than saying black people shouldn't be barred from sharing restrooms with white people did a half century ago. |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Fan0Bynum17 Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 15436
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Separate but equal isn't equal...unless it has to do with gender, apparently. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
Driving on the opposite side of the road is a dumb comparison. Doing that results in a serious accident that can kill a human being or a dog for you dog lovers. The laws are there for your protection. You're putting yourself and others at danger and you should be shot for even attempting that. There's no danger in taking your ass to another bakery for cake.
They WERE treated like any other customer. They respectfully declined their business. They didn't say. GET OUT FA****S AND DON'T COME BACK!!
For the record, I would've given them the damn cake. I wouldn't of cared. But, that's what this country needs. You do whatever the hell you want. I do whatever the hell I want. As long as I'm not hurting you physically or stealing from you. Leave me the (bleep) alone. _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
Driving on the opposite side of the road is a dumb comparison. Doing that results in a serious accident that can kill a human being or a dog for you dog lovers. The laws are there for your protection. You're putting yourself and others at danger and you should be shot for even attempting that. There's no danger in taking your ass to another bakery for cake.
They WERE treated like any other customer. They respectfully declined their business. They didn't say. GET OUT FA****S AND DON'T COME BACK!!
For the record, I would've given them the damn cake. I wouldn't of cared. But, that's what this country needs. You do whatever the hell you want. I do whatever the hell I want. As long as I'm not hurting you physically or stealing from you. Leave me the (bleep) alone. |
Again, it's pretty simple. If one does not intend to obey the anti-discrimination laws within a jurisdiction they intend to conduct business, then they simply don't sign their name to a business license saying that they do intend to obey the laws of that jurisdiction. You don't get to agree to obey the law, then just say to heck with it and make up your own rules. _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
Driving on the opposite side of the road is a dumb comparison. Doing that results in a serious accident that can kill a human being or a dog for you dog lovers. The laws are there for your protection. You're putting yourself and others at danger and you should be shot for even attempting that. There's no danger in taking your ass to another bakery for cake.
They WERE treated like any other customer. They respectfully declined their business. They didn't say. GET OUT FA****S AND DON'T COME BACK!!
For the record, I would've given them the damn cake. I wouldn't of cared. But, that's what this country needs. You do whatever the hell you want. I do whatever the hell I want. As long as I'm not hurting you physically or stealing from you. Leave me the (bleep) alone. |
Again, it's pretty simple. If one does not intend to obey the anti-discrimination laws within a jurisdiction they intend to conduct business, then they simply don't sign their name to a business license saying that they do intend to obey the laws of that jurisdiction. You don't get to agree to obey the law, then just say to heck with it and make up your own rules. |
the law isn't always right. Would you agree? What about the rights of the business owners? Can I walk into a bakery and have them design a cake of my wife giving me a mouth party for renewing our vows? No. They would deem it inappropriate and turn me way. "No problem. Thanks anyway." _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
Driving on the opposite side of the road is a dumb comparison. Doing that results in a serious accident that can kill a human being or a dog for you dog lovers. The laws are there for your protection. You're putting yourself and others at danger and you should be shot for even attempting that. There's no danger in taking your ass to another bakery for cake.
They WERE treated like any other customer. They respectfully declined their business. They didn't say. GET OUT FA****S AND DON'T COME BACK!!
For the record, I would've given them the damn cake. I wouldn't of cared. But, that's what this country needs. You do whatever the hell you want. I do whatever the hell I want. As long as I'm not hurting you physically or stealing from you. Leave me the (bleep) alone. |
Again, it's pretty simple. If one does not intend to obey the anti-discrimination laws within a jurisdiction they intend to conduct business, then they simply don't sign their name to a business license saying that they do intend to obey the laws of that jurisdiction. You don't get to agree to obey the law, then just say to heck with it and make up your own rules. |
the law isn't always right. Would you agree? What about the rights of the business owners? Can I walk into a bakery and have them design a cake of my wife giving me a mouth party for renewing our vows? No. They would deem it inappropriate and turn me way. "No problem. Thanks anyway." |
Sure there are quite a few unjust laws. If you feel an unjust law is violative to you, then you goto court and fight it. Many of these Bakers who refuse to service gays in violation of Anti-Discrimination laws within their jurisdictions do exactly that. If you're Aaron Klein in Oregon, you take it even a step farther - you refuse to pay the $135,000 fine that was assessed against your business for breaking the law. Mr. Klein did not pay for 6 months. When he went to renew his business license, it was refused since he'd proven he was not willing to conduct business in accordance with the laws of his jurisdiction. Mr Klein all of a sudden forgot about his religious convictions that were oh so important to him and paid the fine in full plus penalties and interests. I guess his greed for money trumped his religious convictions? Seems a person who had real issues would have instead continued to refuse to pay the fine and instead got another job, or opened a business in another jurisdiction. So much for convictions... _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
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You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
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You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". |
Actually it was the Bakery that made a big deal. The gay couple that was refused went to that bakery for 2 reasons.
1) It was in their comfort zone because it was in the heart of the Indianapolis Gay District just a block away from 3 Gay Bars.
2) They'd been regular customers of the bakery for the 3 years that it had been open.
Mr, McGath and his business partner opened the bakery in 2012 right in the heart of that Gay District with full knowledge it was in the heart of the Gay District. They openly admit that they knew a large portion of their clients were gay and they had no problem doing business with them. The bakery all of a sudden got uppity when a regular customer ordered a cake for a gay ceremony. Why on earth would these folks choose to open a bakery right in the middle of a Gay District if they had plans on creating such a ruckus? The business had only opened in 2012. It's almost as if they were in search of a fight?
Even though the business was still profitable, the owners decided to close up shop after they were able to create a public spectacle by THEIR actions. Again, what was the motive for opening up shop in a Gay District. Seems pretty transparent...
Bakery Closes _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
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You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". |
You're missing some very key points still:
If allowed to discriminate this way, it DOES become complete in some areas.
It's not about feelings. The only feelings here are those of a business who feel it is their right to deny customary services to those they don't agree with. We've been through this with race and religion. Some of you are just catching up on sexuality.
BTW, the Baker is protected under the law. His supplier can't withhold flour sales to him on the basis that he bakes cakes for hetero weddings, even if the supplier is gay. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
|
You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". |
You're missing some very key points still:
If allowed to discriminate this way, it DOES become complete in some areas.
It's not about feelings. The only feelings here are those of a business who feel it is their right to deny customary services to those they don't agree with. We've been through this with race and religion. Some of you are just catching up on sexuality.
BTW, the Baker is protected under the law. His supplier can't withhold flour sales to him on the basis that he bakes cakes for hetero weddings, even if the supplier is gay. |
It was about the event and not the women. If they casually came in there buying random baked goods, they wouldn't been turned away. Had they been, that definitely would've been discrimination. But, they denied a special order for an event. And it was the 2 women that made the headlines by crying to the state. Not the other way around.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, etc
I feel like I have to reiterate because there are those who wouldn't hesitate to make accusations but, I'm in no way a religious person. I get a bit toasty as I approach a church so therefore, I would've baked the 2 women the cake without hesitation. _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
|
You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". |
You're missing some very key points still:
If allowed to discriminate this way, it DOES become complete in some areas.
It's not about feelings. The only feelings here are those of a business who feel it is their right to deny customary services to those they don't agree with. We've been through this with race and religion. Some of you are just catching up on sexuality.
BTW, the Baker is protected under the law. His supplier can't withhold flour sales to him on the basis that he bakes cakes for hetero weddings, even if the supplier is gay. |
It was about the event and not the women. If they casually came in there buying random baked goods, they wouldn't been turned away. Had they been, that definitely would've been discrimination. But, they denied a special order for an event. And it was the 2 women that made the headlines by crying to the state. Not the other way around.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, etc
I feel like I have to reiterate because there are those who wouldn't hesitate to make accusations but, I'm in no way a religious person. I get a bit toasty as I approach a church so therefore, I would've baked the 2 women the cake without hesitation. |
The first amendment actually provides freedom from religion, not freedom of (which is a logical side benefit of the latter from the former). And the protection provided is not freedom to deny others their freedom. Nowhere in an anti discrimination law is it explicit or implied that the person cannot advocate, live by, or believe any particular thing. No one is making them be gay, support gays, go to a gay wedding, or any such thing. Just provide a customary service. They just can't take their beliefs and transfer them onto someone else's case. Sort of like how a bank can't say, "we let gay people have accounts, we just won't give them a home loan because we don't think they should live together".
I assume you understand why it would be illegal to deny a wedding cake for an interracial marriage on the grounds of white christian identity religious beliefs? If so, your issue isn't with religious freedom, it's with a belief that sexuality doesn't meet the same standards. So we wouldn't be discussing religious freedom at all. We'd be discussing a belief that it is OK to discriminate on sexuality. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: | Aussiesuede wrote: | frijolero01 wrote: |
It seems as though equality and tolerance is not enough. Ok, you're a transgender. Who cares? Good for you. Let's move on. We're all friends. Now you want a separate bathroom and an ESPY?
Perfect example is the bakery that denied service to the gay wedding. All they had to do was accept that it was THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS and move on. Just say "oh ok. No problem. Thank you're. Nope! Had to be outraged and make national headlines.
People don't want tolerance. They want (bleep) celebration. |
All they wanted was to be treated like ANY OTHER CUSTOMER. If a divorcee came in and wanted a cake, then you bake them a cake. Ones opinion about how sacreligious it is for someone to decide to thumb their nose at the mate God chose for them, and disrespect God's wisdom in choosing that mate for them, has nothing to do with anything. They are there to buy a cake, not goto church.
A business license is just like any other license. Either you agree to abide by the laws regulating business, or you go outside the jurisdiction of the business license to operate a business. It's no different than desiring to drive on the left side of the road just because you feel like it. When you sign your Drivers license application, you agree to obey traffic laws associated with that license. You do the same when you sign your application for a business license. Don't agree with the rules of the license, then it's simple - don't sign that application for a business license which states you intend to obey the rules associated with that license. |
As a business, you should reserve the right to refuse business to anyone. Are they the only bakery in town? doubt it.
|
You're missing the very point of discrimination laws. They are to protect the minority from the majority. What if every baker in town is a bigot? Hey, what if the mortgage broker won't process a loan for a gay couple? What if the grocer doesn't want to contribute to the abomination of gay meals? How far are you willing to protect the feelings of people to deny basic services to those they don't agree with? |
They're not and that doesn't happen anymore. The bakery in question IS the minority. I'm sure the couple would've found another bakery in no time. Instead, they want to make national headlines and take time and effort from planning their special day. I hope it was worth it.
I don't agree with them and I would've gladly baked the cake. But, you're setting yourself up for some real problems when you vote for laws because someones feelings got hurt. They were refused a special order. I'm sure they would've welcomed them later if they just wanted to by some other baked goods not specific to any event. It's not like they have a sign outside their store that says "no gays allowed". |
You're missing some very key points still:
If allowed to discriminate this way, it DOES become complete in some areas.
It's not about feelings. The only feelings here are those of a business who feel it is their right to deny customary services to those they don't agree with. We've been through this with race and religion. Some of you are just catching up on sexuality.
BTW, the Baker is protected under the law. His supplier can't withhold flour sales to him on the basis that he bakes cakes for hetero weddings, even if the supplier is gay. |
It was about the event and not the women. If they casually came in there buying random baked goods, they wouldn't been turned away. Had they been, that definitely would've been discrimination. But, they denied a special order for an event. And it was the 2 women that made the headlines by crying to the state. Not the other way around.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, etc
I feel like I have to reiterate because there are those who wouldn't hesitate to make accusations but, I'm in no way a religious person. I get a bit toasty as I approach a church so therefore, I would've baked the 2 women the cake without hesitation. |
The first amendment actually provides freedom from religion, not freedom of (which is a logical side benefit of the latter from the former). And the protection provided is not freedom to deny others their freedom. Nowhere in an anti discrimination law is it explicit or implied that the person cannot advocate, live by, or believe any particular thing. No one is making them be gay, support gays, go to a gay wedding, or any such thing. Just provide a customary service. They just can't take their beliefs and transfer them onto someone else's case. Sort of like how a bank can't say, "we let gay people have accounts, we just won't give them a home loan because we don't think they should live together".
I assume you understand why it would be illegal to deny a wedding cake for an interracial marriage on the grounds of white christian identity religious beliefs? If so, your issue isn't with religious freedom, it's with a belief that sexuality doesn't meet the same standards. So we wouldn't be discussing religious freedom at all. We'd be discussing a belief that it is OK to discriminate on sexuality. |
It was a privately owned, family business. It wasn't Costco. Find another bakery. Plain and simple. There's always going to be those who may have primitive ways of thinking. That's THEIR problem. It's not how the majority feels. They would've had no problem finding another bakery. If some redneck wants to deny my wife and I service (she's white, I'm latino). I'd say. "Good luck with that". And I'll be on my way. My life will move on. Their business won't. _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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To put it simply, the first amendment is protection from the government forcing religion on you, not protection for you forcing religion on another person. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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frijolero01 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 13324
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Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | To put it simply, the first amendment is protection from the government forcing religion on you, not protection for you forcing religion on another person. |
impeding the free exercise of religion
you skip that part?
The Bill of Rights is to protect individuals FROM government, not to allow government to coerce individuals. _________________ Thank you, Kobe. We love you. |
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