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Omar Little
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 Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | guess different people have different standard of what terms/labels are deemed acceptable. This came up yesterday when Omar called steven adams dirty white player. it bothered me like this bothers me but my standard is not everybody's and I'm no expert in race relation. So if majority think it's acceptable then maybe they are |
I'm glad that you brought that up because these two issues are related iMO. It is about perception vs reality. You stripped my comments of their context, which was that on a mainstream, media driven, audience approved level, Draymond is a dirty guy while guys like Adams and Bogut and others who play with a hard edge and deliberately take cheap shots to goad other guys are gritty and chippy and hard working smart guys making the most of their talent. Or a guy like Dellavadova, who hurt a couple guys deliberately rolling into their legs is celebrated.
And that brings us to this subject. Look at coaching decisions. Name the last black whiz kid x and o guy who was hired because of his transformative ideas. Black players and coaches are at least theoretically perceived to be products of talent and experience as players (in the case of coaches), while white players are savvy and smart, and white coaches spring from all kinds of unusual backgrounds and get a shot.
I don't agree with Wilbon's premise in fact, but i am glad he's raising it in a perceptual sense, because he as a black man is espousing a perceptual concept that black folks are hostile or disinterested as a culture in analytics, thereby reinforcing the stereotype. And reinforcing stereotypes without examining and understanding them helps perpetuate them, and can even make them more real.
The fact is lots of people are hostile toward or disinterested in analytics, especially in activities where there is a lot of stereotypical male testosterone involved. This was true in business, and has also been tied to views of women and minorities in those fields, and their capacity for analytical endeavor.
It's a conversation we should be having, no matter how it begins.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Do people of other skin color talk about analytics a lot in normal sports conversations? I identify as "white" and when talking about last nights game +/- or true shooting % almost never come up. People don't watch sports so they can hope their favorite teams fulfill some statistical category, other than a W. |
not so much along races but among my friends who play fantasy bball vs the ones who don't, they know stats very well |
That's actually a good topic. I've played in fantasy football league for about 8 years now, and the other members are almost all black. They know stats, follow stats and study them, just as any other member who wants to win. But that's the point of fantasy, not the point of playing sports or rooting for your favorite team. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | governator wrote: | | guess different people have different standard of what terms/labels are deemed acceptable. This came up yesterday when Omar called steven adams dirty white player. it bothered me like this bothers me but my standard is not everybody's and I'm no expert in race relation. So if majority think it's acceptable then maybe they are |
I'm glad that you brought that up because these two issues are related iMO. It is about perception vs reality. You stripped my comments of their context, which was that on a mainstream, media driven, audience approved level, Draymond is a dirty guy while guys like Adams and Bogut and others who play with a hard edge and deliberately take cheap shots to goad other guys are gritty and chippy and hard working smart guys making the most of their talent. Or a guy like Dellavadova, who hurt a couple guys deliberately rolling into their legs is celebrated.
And that brings us to this subject. Look at coaching decisions. Name the last black whiz kid x and o guy who was hired because of his transformative ideas. Black players and coaches are at least theoretically perceived to be products of talent and experience as players (in the case of coaches), while white players are savvy and smart, and white coaches spring from all kinds of unusual backgrounds and get a shot.
I don't agree with Wilbon's premise in fact, but i am glad he's raising it in a perceptual sense, because he as a black man is espousing a perceptual concept that black folks are hostile or disinterested as a culture in analytics, thereby reinforcing the stereotype. And reinforcing stereotypes without examining and understanding them helps perpetuate them, and can even make them more real.
The fact is lots of people are hostile toward or disinterested in analytics, especially in activities where there is a lot of stereotypical male testosterone involved. This was true in business, and has also been tied to views of women and minorities in those fields, and their capacity for analytical endeavor.
It's a conversation we should be having, no matter how it begins. |
yeah, i think i was looking at it from the 'perfect world' view where racism doesn't exist but it def does. Thus those terms/different terms describing white vs black players doing exactly the same thing. Appreciate the explanation. Now let me go back arguing why we want derozan |
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Practice wrote: | | Wilbon is trying to act like numbers are African American kryptonite. |
No, he's trying to act like analytics are racist  |
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VANEXELtoJONES
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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That was a great read. I loved this quote:
"Sports is emotional. And analytics represent the absence of emotion, the antithesis. Nobody gets into sports to be dispassionate. And it just seems to me we are the feel it, smell it, touch it people.”
I remember having loved T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" back in high school. And then years later, a professor told an entire class to "analyze" the poem's content with regards to things like word count, stanza structures, syllabics, rhythmic patterns, etc. While I'm not going to say it ruined it for many students, it certainly didn't leave a good taste with most of us in that class. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| VANEXELtoJONES wrote: |
I remember having loved T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" back in high school. And then years later, a professor told an entire class to "analyze" the poem's content with regards to things like word count, stanza structures, syllabics, rhythmic patterns, etc. While I'm not going to say it ruined it for many students, it certainly didn't leave a good taste with most of us in that class. |
But it made Sweeney Erect. |
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Team of the 80's
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Analytics are also used by corporate America to out source jobs and send them over seas. If you're doing the work of three people at work its because the analytics dept. decided it was better for share holders to get rid of your coworkers and give their duties to you. To me it all comes out of the Ayn Rand school of thought and we all know how well that crap is working out around the world. Revenge of the nerds indeed. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Team of the 80's wrote: | | Analytics are also used by corporate America to out source jobs and send them over seas. If you're doing the work of three people at work its because the analytics dept. decided it was better for share holders to get rid of your coworkers and give their duties to you. To me it all comes out of the Ayn Rand school of thought and we all know how well that crap is working out around the world. Revenge of the nerds indeed. |
Fair enough, but that is a philosophical question of what we should do via laws and regulations, not whether or not the analysis is factually correct about what it is analyzing.
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Team of the 80's
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Team of the 80's wrote: | | Analytics are also used by corporate America to out source jobs and send them over seas. If you're doing the work of three people at work its because the analytics dept. decided it was better for share holders to get rid of your coworkers and give their duties to you. To me it all comes out of the Ayn Rand school of thought and we all know how well that crap is working out around the world. Revenge of the nerds indeed. |
Fair enough, but that is a philosophical question of what we should do via laws and regulations, not whether or not the analysis is factually correct about what it is analyzing. |
True. The numbers may not lie but how can they if your point of view determines what you want them to show?
If OKC beats GS tonight what will the analytics folks have to say about two ISO guys beating the future play style of the NBA? |
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lakers0505
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Team of the 80's wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Team of the 80's wrote: | | Analytics are also used by corporate America to out source jobs and send them over seas. If you're doing the work of three people at work its because the analytics dept. decided it was better for share holders to get rid of your coworkers and give their duties to you. To me it all comes out of the Ayn Rand school of thought and we all know how well that crap is working out around the world. Revenge of the nerds indeed. |
Fair enough, but that is a philosophical question of what we should do via laws and regulations, not whether or not the analysis is factually correct about what it is analyzing. |
True. The numbers may not lie but how can they if your point of view determines what you want them to show?
If OKC beats GS tonight what will the analytics folks have to say about two ISO guys beating the future play style of the NBA? |
You know if the ISO guys aren't looking at the advance analytics, when developing their game?
Advance analytics is simply math, in the context of basketball. A player is doing a disservice to himself if he ignores it.
Heck, just hire someone to do the analysis, and them you hire a coach to tell you how to correct the deficiency if you care enough to become better.
I think Durant already has someone who does this BTW. |
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Vic5150
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Do people of other skin color talk about analytics a lot in normal sports conversations? I identify as "white" and when talking about last nights game +/- or true shooting % almost never come up. People don't watch sports so they can hope their favorite teams fulfill some statistical category, other than a W. |
No it doesn't. In fact advanced stats only really come up in message board discussions. How would you naturally drop some advanced analytics into a sports argument/discussion without sucking all of the air out of the room and finding yourself alone? The analytic debate is mostly a front office debate. It's for groups building a team or dispensing info to develop, and execute, a gameplan. I can't imagine a guy saying, "Wow! That 3-15 game Player X had with 7 turnovers and only 3 assists is really going to see a drop in is PER." Advanced stats simply don't lend themselves to casual conversation. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Coaches use analytics, people working in the industry use analytics. Athletes study film for tendencies. Fans watch the game. I don't see how you can pigeon hole a ethnic. Do Asians, Mexicans, Native Americans use analyitics?
IMO fans don't look to analytics much, not just African Americans. Fans watch and judge by what they see.
As a fan I'm not going to chart how many times a player shoots and makes from this spot or that, I do note. I find myself yelling at my screen, "git up on him." I don't take note of who goes left or right. My thing is stay in front of the offensive player.
I can see how it's a useful tool for coaches, scouts, GMs and such.
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KBH
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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So many things about this article made my head spin as a black guy Particularly that he's positing that analytics are growing in importance to perpetuate a new school good old boys club. Particularly when it comes just paragraphs after he says that black people have little interest in analytics. If you want to make this a racial issue, it would be about access to education and whether there is a large enough intersection of black basketball fans who pursue careers in mathematics and statistics.
That said, the idea that it's just black people who aren't into analytics is false and it feels like Wilbon is either race baiting, trying to stir something up to make a story and is fueled by his own bias against analytics due to being an old guy. The only time I ever delve into hoop discussions with analytics are when I'm here, r/NBA, r/Lakers, Forum Blue and Gold or Silver Screen and Rolls. What do these sites attract? The biggest hoop junkies on the web who devour every kernel of information they can.
Wilbon's position is that it screams of the same anti-intellectualism that is far too prevalent in the community, which is funny considering he's a Georgetown grad. Analytics aren't here to replace scouting and don't detract from the passion in the game. But the idea that having more information could somehow hurt the game is ridiculous.
/end rant
Last edited by KBH on Tue May 24, 2016 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | governator wrote: | | guess different people have different standard of what terms/labels are deemed acceptable. This came up yesterday when Omar called steven adams dirty white player. it bothered me like this bothers me but my standard is not everybody's and I'm no expert in race relation. So if majority think it's acceptable then maybe they are |
I'm glad that you brought that up because these two issues are related iMO. It is about perception vs reality. You stripped my comments of their context, which was that on a mainstream, media driven, audience approved level, Draymond is a dirty guy while guys like Adams and Bogut and others who play with a hard edge and deliberately take cheap shots to goad other guys are gritty and chippy and hard working smart guys making the most of their talent. Or a guy like Dellavadova, who hurt a couple guys deliberately rolling into their legs is celebrated.
And that brings us to this subject. Look at coaching decisions. Name the last black whiz kid x and o guy who was hired because of his transformative ideas. Black players and coaches are at least theoretically perceived to be products of talent and experience as players (in the case of coaches), while white players are savvy and smart, and white coaches spring from all kinds of unusual backgrounds and get a shot.
I don't agree with Wilbon's premise in fact, but i am glad he's raising it in a perceptual sense, because he as a black man is espousing a perceptual concept that black folks are hostile or disinterested as a culture in analytics, thereby reinforcing the stereotype. And reinforcing stereotypes without examining and understanding them helps perpetuate them, and can even make them more real.
The fact is lots of people are hostile toward or disinterested in analytics, especially in activities where there is a lot of stereotypical male testosterone involved. This was true in business, and has also been tied to views of women and minorities in those fields, and their capacity for analytical endeavor.
It's a conversation we should be having, no matter how it begins. |
I disagree on that point. The media has gone back and forth and made an issue with Delly and Adams in regards to how dirty they are in the same manner with Draymond. They were asking that question "Is Delly a dirty player" ad nauseum throughout the finals. They were asking that question about Adams when he was tussling all series with Zbo. In fact, for the last few years, I've heard nothing but praise about how hard nosed, gritty Draymond was and it wasn't until recent months when one compilation video of his dirty deeds after another began to surface at the grassroots level. Any player that hits a certain threshold and the narrative changes. Combine the fact that Draymond has been throwing guys around the court with impunity and the perception that the GSW are the golden boys of the league and you're going to get a backlash. His is deserved. |
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eagles nut
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cleveland Browns might have the largest percentage of African-Americans in the front office and coaching staff combined and place a huge emphasis on analytics. Now of course the Browns at this point will try anything but I don't know if it's necessarily strictly a race issue. |
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Lowest Merion
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Thought provoking stuff. |
Disagree. Wilbon admittedly hates advanced stats. He's not saying anything we didn't already know he thinks. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Lowest Merion wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Thought provoking stuff. |
Disagree. Wilbon admittedly hates advanced stats. He's not saying anything we didn't already know he thinks. |
Coupled with the fact that he has always been an idiot |
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 am Post subject: |
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This whole thread is racist. I am offended and appalled. I am now going to go identify as a sloth and lay around and do nothing because it is my right to be identified as a sloth or you are a racist. Racist.
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governator
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:28 am Post subject: |
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watching first take. they're talking about wilson's opinion piece. Analytics used as a racist way to prevent hiring of black coaches?
I think if the field is heading towards use of a new skill, applicants should upgrade themselves and learn that skill. I do however believe that all coaches use analytic so is it the argument that black coaches don't learn the 'new' or 'in depth' (they said 2nd and 3rd tier analytic in the show) or is this a true bullsh*t requirement like the show suggest? |
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City_Dawg
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Nice generalization Wilbon.
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spflakers
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| VANEXELtoJONES wrote: | That was a great read. I loved this quote:
"Sports is emotional. And analytics represent the absence of emotion, the antithesis. Nobody gets into sports to be dispassionate. And it just seems to me we are the feel it, smell it, touch it people.”
I remember having loved T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" back in high school. And then years later, a professor told an entire class to "analyze" the poem's content with regards to things like word count, stanza structures, syllabics, rhythmic patterns, etc. While I'm not going to say it ruined it for many students, it certainly didn't leave a good taste with most of us in that class. |
Hopefully Mr. Keating replaced your prof J. Evans Pritchard eventually and taught you guys to suck the marrow out of life. |
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Qsmiff
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| pio2u wrote: | | Lowest Merion wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Thought provoking stuff. |
Disagree. Wilbon admittedly hates advanced stats. He's not saying anything we didn't already know he thinks. |
Coupled with the fact that he has always been an idiot |
Sorry, but Wilbon is far from anybody's idiot, as to the article, I don't think ANY specific racial group is sitting around discussing advanced metrics.... there may be a type.. fantasy folks, team GMs.....but the rest of us are all talking stats...lol..metrics.."he ain't hit a shot in four games"....."why is he playing so many minutes? "...its always about metrics at the barber shop!!...lol |
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Oliver Reed wrote: | | This whole thread is racist. I am offended and appalled. I am now going to go identify as a sloth and lay around and do nothing because it is my right to be identified as a sloth or you are a racist. Racist. |
I love it when stupid people think they're being clever. |
You should stop looking in the mirror when you say stuff like that.
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shnxx
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to cloud computing and Moore's law, we have increased processing power available on demand for every company.
Thanks to cheap data storage, internet, sensor technologies, video compression, etc, we have a lot more data.
Thanks to machine learning algorithms, we have good ways to interpret lots of data.
This is not just happening to the NBA; it's happening in every industry.
These people like Stephen A Smith talk about black people aren't into analytics.
But what percentage of the NBA players is black?
What percentage are Asians?
You can always play the victims card, but it's quite rich when it's coming from black people, complaining that sports is discriminatory against black people (LOL!!!) |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| VANEXELtoJONES wrote: |
I remember having loved T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" back in high school. And then years later, a professor told an entire class to "analyze" the poem's content with regards to things like word count, stanza structures, syllabics, rhythmic patterns, etc. While I'm not going to say it ruined it for many students, it certainly didn't leave a good taste with most of us in that class. |
(whispers) Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrr-peeeeee diiiiieeemm... Siiiiiieeeze the daaaaay...
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