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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
... the vid showed 80different really good shooters "heading" the ball to some degree. And that's during the up and over motion - and if you can't use however many inches of that top of your head that you need during that up and over, you go Up and Out - and you get those incompetent outward releases and trajectories you saw.
Why shouldn't Stanley and Winslow have been halfway decent shooters as rookies if they shot 37% and 42% respectively in college? I know they weren't projected to be for some reason, but why?
The excuse for Russell's disappointing shooting has been strength, what about Stanley and Winslow.
I know there's an adjustment period to different 3pt lines, but these guys went from really good college shooters to being projected as Tony Allen's

.. The vid showed dozens upon dozens of good shooters heading the ball to some degree, and that space however far back on the head, is vital. For whatever excessive amount of heading that Marcus Smart would do, he shot better on 3s inside 25ft than Devin Booker in their respective rookie seasons.
But the point is, the hoard of shooters heading in that vid weren't doing to Smart's degree, but it was vital to them.


I don't think Korver heads the ball all that often, really. He'll do it a bit coming off of screens, because form slips a little bit when you're on the move, but on Catch & Shoots he doesn't. 1:10 of this video is an example. I'd venture a guess that most good shooters don't head the ball much when their feet are set. Love does too though, I forgot about him.

Devin Booker shot 40.9% on Catch & Shoot 3's as a rookie, compared to Smart's 36.3% mark on Catch & Shoot's as a rookie. Booker was shooting many more shots off of the dribble than Smart was.

Johnson and Winslow were low volume 3-point shooters, and Winslow had a very poor FT%, which is more indicative of NBA 3-point percentage than college 3-point percentage is.

There are several high caliber NBA shooters who shoot in front of their heads.

Steph: https://youtu.be/TEQ9KXPTCbs
Kyrie: https://youtu.be/-Fppys-dCkU
Lillard: https://youtu.be/P0lbehaBARc
Harden: https://youtu.be/Msg1X3REsu4


Steph and Kyrie have tiny wingspans , and Lilliard a tiny standing reach allowing them to release at the face. there are more, sure. But however good many shooters I showed doing it in that vid(50?) and i have more, who head the ball --- realistically it's probably like half of the good shooters in the league head the ball to some degree.

Korver heads the ball often.
http://bullsextra.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/korver-300x225.jpg

http://nyloncalculus.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/kyle-korver-jerami-grant-nba-atlanta-hawks-philadelphia-76ers.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/463545262-kyle-korver-of-the-eastern-conference-all-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QXYuDdISVpd%2B4TH26uflvh1lJSzNk6C9g8mrUy%2FRsacAvNBfZHNoEiwR8Nx746wHc2UdIwlBxELj8ZwF36dMxvPLv7c%2Bu46pAjDdFsDWtGKa

you say he only does it rarely, well do you want him to miss those shots then?


Harden tilts the effff out of his head to not put the ball an inch or two or five, past his hairline.
https://youtu.be/1preN7xamP0?t=1m9s (3 clips in a row of it, he does it very often)
and Anthony Brown, and Jaylen Brown emulate this tilt, it's not a good fundamental.

it's all in the vid man, I stick by my last post above this one
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
... the vid showed 80different really good shooters "heading" the ball to some degree. And that's during the up and over motion - and if you can't use however many inches of that top of your head that you need during that up and over, you go Up and Out - and you get those incompetent outward releases and trajectories you saw.
Why shouldn't Stanley and Winslow have been halfway decent shooters as rookies if they shot 37% and 42% respectively in college? I know they weren't projected to be for some reason, but why?
The excuse for Russell's disappointing shooting has been strength, what about Stanley and Winslow.
I know there's an adjustment period to different 3pt lines, but these guys went from really good college shooters to being projected as Tony Allen's

.. The vid showed dozens upon dozens of good shooters heading the ball to some degree, and that space however far back on the head, is vital. For whatever excessive amount of heading that Marcus Smart would do, he shot better on 3s inside 25ft than Devin Booker in their respective rookie seasons.
But the point is, the hoard of shooters heading in that vid weren't doing to Smart's degree, but it was vital to them.


I don't think Korver heads the ball all that often, really. He'll do it a bit coming off of screens, because form slips a little bit when you're on the move, but on Catch & Shoots he doesn't. 1:10 of this video is an example. I'd venture a guess that most good shooters don't head the ball much when their feet are set. Love does too though, I forgot about him.

Devin Booker shot 40.9% on Catch & Shoot 3's as a rookie, compared to Smart's 36.3% mark on Catch & Shoot's as a rookie. Booker was shooting many more shots off of the dribble than Smart was.

Johnson and Winslow were low volume 3-point shooters, and Winslow had a very poor FT%, which is more indicative of NBA 3-point percentage than college 3-point percentage is.

There are several high caliber NBA shooters who shoot in front of their heads.

Steph: https://youtu.be/TEQ9KXPTCbs
Kyrie: https://youtu.be/-Fppys-dCkU
Lillard: https://youtu.be/P0lbehaBARc
Harden: https://youtu.be/Msg1X3REsu4


Steph and Kyrie have tiny wingspans , and Lilliard a tiny standing reach allowing them to release at the face. there are more, sure. But however good shooters I showed doing it in that vid(50?) and i have more, who head the ball --- realistically it's probably like half of the good shooters in the league head the ball to some degree.

Korver heads the ball often.
http://bullsextra.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/korver-300x225.jpg

http://nyloncalculus.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/kyle-korver-jerami-grant-nba-atlanta-hawks-philadelphia-76ers.jpg

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/463545262-kyle-korver-of-the-eastern-conference-all-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QXYuDdISVpd%2B4TH26uflvh1lJSzNk6C9g8mrUy%2FRsacAvNBfZHNoEiwR8Nx746wHc2UdIwlBxELj8ZwF36dMxvPLv7c%2Bu46pAjDdFsDWtGKa

you say he only does it rarely, well do you want him to miss those shots then?


Harden tilts the effff out of his head to not put the ball an inch or two or five, past his hairline.
https://youtu.be/1preN7xamP0?t=1m9s (3 clips in a row of it, he does it very often)
and Anthony Brown, and Jaylen Brown emulate this tilt, it's not a good fundamental.

it's all in the vid man, I stick by my last post above this one


All of those pics show the ball in front of Korver's head? Maybe we're miscommunicating here? The ball goes up to the hairline, but not over the head.

And I have no issue with the head tilt. I dunno, man. I'm not seeing the hair thing. There are too many high caliber shooters in the league with tall hair.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject:

Human nature - I think it's just really hard for some people to loosen from their long standing ties to an ideal. You say that most players don't "head the ball", I just showed you a video of 50 good shooters doing it. you're eyes aren't lying.

it's ok though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject:

How can you deny those pics of Korver. do you wan't him to miss those shots because he can't take the ball back to it's natural point when needed? that's one part of the point, they will miss some shots because of it , maybe not all, who knows how many? for some of the guys they're crap shooters because of it
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
How can you deny those pics of Korver. do you wan't him to miss those shots because he can't take the ball back to it's natural point when needed? that's one part of the point, they will miss some shots because of it , maybe not all, who knows how many? for some of the guys they're crap shooters because of it


It's up to the hair line, but not over the head. These are pictures from straight ahead, dude.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject:

Klay, same thing. Not still pics, but video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMbF5_xujY
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:14 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
How can you deny those pics of Korver. do you wan't him to miss those shots because he can't take the ball back to it's natural point when needed? that's one part of the point, they will miss some shots because of it , maybe not all, who knows how many? for some of the guys they're crap shooters because of it


It's up to the hair line, but not over the head. These are pictures from straight ahead, dude.


we are like educated Stephen A and Skip right now. (but i'm glad the public is on my side) (stephen A brag)

do you want the players in my video to miss every single shot in the video?

...because they would with a high top fade
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:17 pm    Post subject:

that is why all of those players have that incompetent outward extension on their stroke and the incompetent trajectory, they know not to shoot out and low like that - everyone knows to finish high and have competent arch - they just can't execute it
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
How can you deny those pics of Korver. do you wan't him to miss those shots because he can't take the ball back to it's natural point when needed? that's one part of the point, they will miss some shots because of it , maybe not all, who knows how many? for some of the guys they're crap shooters because of it


It's up to the hair line, but not over the head. These are pictures from straight ahead, dude.


we are like educated Stephen A and Skip right now. (but i'm glad the public is on my side) (stephen A brag)

do you want the players in my video to miss every single shot in the video?

...because they would with a high top fade


I'm not sure what you mean here.

Again, Brandon Rush, Allen Crabbe, Patrick Beverley, Buddy Hield...there are a lot of superb shooters who have big hair. Heck, even Russell, who improved considerably over the course of the year. And I think there are a lot of examples in the video where the ball is going up to a shooter's hairline rather than him heading it. The public may agree, but I'm sorry, I don't.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Klay, same thing. Not still pics, but video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMbF5_xujY


and i could show you shot's of it going over his hair, do you want him to miss those because he's restricted?
90% of players who don't take the ball over their head aren't long. Klay has a 6'9 wingspan. all of the guys that you've listed are either abnormally not long in the arms, or not long at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
How can you deny those pics of Korver. do you wan't him to miss those shots because he can't take the ball back to it's natural point when needed? that's one part of the point, they will miss some shots because of it , maybe not all, who knows how many? for some of the guys they're crap shooters because of it


It's up to the hair line, but not over the head. These are pictures from straight ahead, dude.


we are like educated Stephen A and Skip right now. (but i'm glad the public is on my side) (stephen A brag)

do you want the players in my video to miss every single shot in the video?

...because they would with a high top fade


I'm not sure what you mean here.

Again, Brandon Rush, Allen Crabbe, Patrick Beverley, Buddy Hield...there are a lot of superb shooters who have big hair. Heck, even Russell, who improved considerably over the course of the year. And I think there are a lot of examples in the video where the ball is going up to a shooter's hairline rather than him heading it. The public may agree, but I'm sorry, I don't.


GT, if the ball goes one inch past your hairline, a fro would restrict it and you would extend outward instead of continuing up and over.

And i mean, every pic/vid in the video has the ball being headed to some degree - all those shots would be missed because the players would be restricted and couldn't finish their shot up and over
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Klay, same thing. Not still pics, but video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMbF5_xujY


and i could show you shot's of it going over his hair, do you want him to miss those because he's restricted?
90% of players who don't take the ball over their head aren't long. Klay has a 6'9 wingspan. all of the guys that you've listed are either abnormally not long in the arms, or not long at all.


I'm sure you could find shots of shooters with all sorts of forms, the question is how effective are they with those forms. A 3-point contest, for example, is where a player demonstrates their ideal mechanics, without defense or having to run off of screens. Players have to make all sorts of less than ideal adjustments to their form in games, that's why they don't make shots as often.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GT, if the ball goes one inch past your hairline, a fro would restrict it and you would extend outward instead of continuing up and over.

And i mean, every pic/vid in the video has the ball being headed to some degree - all those shots would be missed because the players would be restricted and couldn't finish their shot up and over


But the ball isn't going over most of their heads.

And in Russell's case, one of the adjustments he made over the season was the ball not going over his head. Watch him in Summer League vs. the regular season, where he's shooting the ball in front of his head.

Summer League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlnbunknWg
March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr5sCDnYlNc

And Russell's arms are plenty long relative to his body.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Nick Young shooting in front of his head with big ass hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GT, if the ball goes one inch past your hairline, a fro would restrict it and you would extend outward instead of continuing up and over.

And i mean, every pic/vid in the video has the ball being headed to some degree - all those shots would be missed because the players would be restricted and couldn't finish their shot up and over


But the ball isn't going over most of their heads.

And in Russell's case, one of the adjustments he made over the season was the ball not going over his head. Watch him in Summer League vs. the regular season, where he's shooting the ball in front of his head.

Summer League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlnbunknWg
March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr5sCDnYlNc

And Russell's arms are plenty long relative to his body.


and he missed most of his shots woefully short during the season, with that incompetent low trajectory and outward finishing stroke..

his best adjustment was not crouching on his shot (because he gets no arch) and elevating more often https://vine.co/v/iVYJUQj93gq because he gets no arch and has to elevate to the plain of the rim
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GT, if the ball goes one inch past your hairline, a fro would restrict it and you would extend outward instead of continuing up and over.

And i mean, every pic/vid in the video has the ball being headed to some degree - all those shots would be missed because the players would be restricted and couldn't finish their shot up and over


But the ball isn't going over most of their heads.

And in Russell's case, one of the adjustments he made over the season was the ball not going over his head. Watch him in Summer League vs. the regular season, where he's shooting the ball in front of his head.

Summer League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlnbunknWg
March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr5sCDnYlNc

And Russell's arms are plenty long relative to his body.


and he missed most of his shots woefully short during the season, with that incompetent low trajectory and outward finishing stroke..

his best adjustment was not crouching on his shot (because he gets no arch) and elevating more often https://vine.co/v/iVYJUQj93gq because he gets no arch and has to elevate to the plain of the rim


He missed most of his shots woefully short during the summer, when he was shooting over his head. It was much less of a problem as the season went along.

And again, you have a guy like Allen Crabbe, who's height to wingspan ration is less severe than Russell's, shooting just fine over his head with bigger hair. I just don't think it matters at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Nick Young shooting in front of his head with big ass hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14


minimal arch and low trajectory, 1:10 plain to see, ball barley gets over the rim
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GT, if the ball goes one inch past your hairline, a fro would restrict it and you would extend outward instead of continuing up and over.

And i mean, every pic/vid in the video has the ball being headed to some degree - all those shots would be missed because the players would be restricted and couldn't finish their shot up and over


But the ball isn't going over most of their heads.

And in Russell's case, one of the adjustments he made over the season was the ball not going over his head. Watch him in Summer League vs. the regular season, where he's shooting the ball in front of his head.

Summer League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlnbunknWg
March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr5sCDnYlNc

And Russell's arms are plenty long relative to his body.


and he missed most of his shots woefully short during the season, with that incompetent low trajectory and outward finishing stroke..

his best adjustment was not crouching on his shot (because he gets no arch) and elevating more often https://vine.co/v/iVYJUQj93gq because he gets no arch and has to elevate to the plain of the rim


He missed most of his shots woefully short during the summer, when he was shooting over his head. It was much less of a problem as the season went along.

And again, you have a guy like Allen Crabbe, who's height to wingspan ration is less severe than Russell's, shooting just fine over his head with bigger hair. I just don't think it matters at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14


and Crabbe shoots line drive frozen ropes in my video! if he doesn't elevate so much, to the plain of the rim - the ball doesn't get over --- that point is clear in my video.
with his measurements, maybe he has no neck idk. but he obviously has sub optimal arch/trajectory because of shooting that way.
you try starting your shot pocket 4 inches above your head. this is all common sense
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject:

Feindish would post the stat that Russell shot like 42% from NBA range in college, with his short hair, unrestricted.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:52 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Nick Young shooting in front of his head with big ass hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14


minimal arch and low trajectory, 1:10 plain to see, ball barley gets over the rim


Young doesn't normally have a flat shot. Neither does Kyrie, Lillard, Harden, Russell, or many of the guys who shoot that way. I'd argue that Durant's shot is flatter than all of them.

Guys like Smart, Winslow, & Johnson are poor shooters because of their footwork, their hand mechanics, and their release, not their hair. Guys like Winslow & Johnson had the same hair cut in college when they had higher percentages.

So somewhere between 20'9" and 23'9" your hair becomes a problem?

BTW...you're the homie, dude. I hope we can argue without holding grudges. You're one of my favorite people here.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Nick Young shooting in front of his head with big ass hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afr8OTPfv14


minimal arch and low trajectory, 1:10 plain to see, ball barley gets over the rim


Young doesn't normally have a flat shot. Neither does Kyrie, Lillard, Harden, Russell, or many of the guys who shoot that way. I'd argue that Durant's shot is flatter than all of them.

Guys like Smart, Winslow, & Johnson are poor shooters because of their footwork, their hand mechanics, and their release, not their hair. Guys like Winslow & Johnson had the same hair cut in college when they had higher percentages.

So somewhere between 20'9" and 23'9" your hair becomes a problem?

BTW...you're the homie, dude. I hope we can argue without holding grudges. You're one of my favorite people here.


oh I'm super pissed right now that you're not agreeing with me, but you're still my guy. friends do this anyway

http://www.trbimg.com/img-563d8e95/turbine/la-sp-lakers-nets-20151107 but this was Russell's hair in the first month of the season, when he was missing short on everything. (yea he shot well that singular game)

hair becomes an issue when it's in the way of your natural stroke. whatever your natural stroke is - one inch beyond your hairline - back of the head like Smart.
I don't want to scurry back to the number game - but everyone is seeing that the ball is indeed some portion on top of the players head's in my vid(but you) - again, they would miss all of those shots in my vid, if they had a 'fro there , cuz they'd be restricted. line driving the follow-through like Russell, or having to overextend way over their head.

these guys are having to elevate to the plain of the rim, to line drive it there. that's not optimal, that's not up and over - that's finishing OUT because they're restricted
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Guys like Smart, Winslow, & Johnson are poor shooters because of their footwork, their hand mechanics, and their release, not their hair. Guys like Winslow & Johnson had the same hair cut in college when they had higher percentages.


this is my point though, they're not able to adjust their trajectories/releases for the longer line. they're restricted

their outward releases and low trajectories can't be being done willingly, they are straight up incompetent. everyone knows not to shoot like that
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:11 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
oh I'm super pissed right now that you're not agreeing with me, but you're still my guy. friends do this anyway

http://www.trbimg.com/img-563d8e95/turbine/la-sp-lakers-nets-20151107 but this was Russell's hair in the first month of the season, when he was missing short on everything. (yea he shot well that singular game)

hair becomes an issue when it's in the way of your natural stroke. whatever your natural stroke is - one inch beyond your hairline - back of the head like Smart.
I don't want to scurry back to the number game - but everyone is seeing that the ball is indeed some portion on top of the players head's in my vid(but you) - again, they would miss all of those shots in my vid, if they had a 'fro there , cuz they'd be restricted. line driving the follow-through like Russell, or having to overextend way over their head.

these guys are having to elevate to the plain of the rim, to line drive it there. that's not optimal, that's not up and over - that's finishing OUT because they're restricted


Fair enough.

This was Russell's hair in March. Yeah, it was a little longer early on, but is there really a significant difference here? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kr5sCDnYlNc/hqdefault.jpg

Is it really different than Kevin Love? https://cbsmorningshow.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/505586342.jpg

And is there such a thing as a "natural shooting form?"
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:14 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Quote:
Guys like Smart, Winslow, & Johnson are poor shooters because of their footwork, their hand mechanics, and their release, not their hair. Guys like Winslow & Johnson had the same hair cut in college when they had higher percentages.


this is my point though, they're not able to adjust their trajectories/releases for the longer line. they're restricted

their outward releases and low trajectories can't be being done willingly, they are straight up incompetent. everyone knows not to shoot like that


They shouldn't be adjusting their trajectories/releases for the longer line. They should be getting extra distance on their shots with their legs. Most players don't change their release point when they get to the NBA.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Quote:
Guys like Smart, Winslow, & Johnson are poor shooters because of their footwork, their hand mechanics, and their release, not their hair. Guys like Winslow & Johnson had the same hair cut in college when they had higher percentages.


this is my point though, they're not able to adjust their trajectories/releases for the longer line. they're restricted

their outward releases and low trajectories can't be being done willingly, they are straight up incompetent. everyone knows not to shoot like that


They shouldn't be adjusting their trajectories/releases for the longer line. They should be getting extra distance on their shots with their legs. Most players don't change their release point when they get to the NBA.


so they should finish their stroke out like that? no way.
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