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Steve007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:11 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
We're doing fine. We didn't have anywhere near our best lineup and we're playing the #1 team in the world and many think that Messi is the GOAT. We knew we were huge underdogs to win this just like almost any other team in the tournament.


What is this "best lineup" you speak of? Wood? Donovan? Altidore?

Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, and Pastore ON THE FREAKIN' BENCH!


We had Wondo starting. Need I say more?


You can stick prime Zidane in for Wondolo, wouldn't make a squat of a diffQerence against this Argentinian side.


So what?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, and Pastore ON THE FREAKIN' BENCH!


How many other teams on the planet have that type of roster though? Nobody is thinking we're close to being #1. You can't do that overnight. I'd be thrilled if we were a top 10 team in the world.


Off the top of my head: Germany, France, Spain, Brazil, Belgium... the way football is taught and developed in the US is a mess. Just look at how academies are run around the world especially in Europe and you don't need a PhD in football implementation to tell you what's wrong with the US model.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject:

At the end of the day the US made it to the quarterfinals and that's something to be proud of
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:21 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, and Pastore ON THE FREAKIN' BENCH!


How many other teams on the planet have that type of roster though? Nobody is thinking we're close to being #1. You can't do that overnight. I'd be thrilled if we were a top 10 team in the world.


Off the top of my head: Germany, France, Spain, Brazil, Belgium... the way football is taught and developed in the US is a mess. Just look at how academies are run around the world especially in Europe and you don't need a PhD in football implementation to tell you what's wrong with the US model.


That's my point though. That's only 5 teams and 4 of them won World Cups in the last 20 years. The other team is ranked #2 in the world.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject:

PurpleAndGOAT wrote:
At the end of the day the US made it to the quarterfinals and that's something to be proud of


Actually it's the semifinals.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, and Pastore ON THE FREAKIN' BENCH!


How many other teams on the planet have that type of roster though? Nobody is thinking we're close to being #1. You can't do that overnight. I'd be thrilled if we were a top 10 team in the world.


Off the top of my head: Germany, France, Spain, Brazil, Belgium... the way football is taught and developed in the US is a mess. Just look at how academies are run around the world especially in Europe and you don't need a PhD in football implementation to tell you what's wrong with the US model.


That's my point though. That's only 5 teams and 4 of them won World Cups in the last 20 years. The other team is ranked #2 in the world.


Telling is the state of US football, when your most exciting prospects are squad players in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. Adu...flopped, Rossi...pulled a Benedict Arnold.

MLS has to be blamed for some of this lack of talent. A league that's mostly comprised of domestic players and a handful of last generation footballing greats as a sideshow masquerading as a 'professional' league. The exceptions to the rule are outcast international players who don't represent their respective countries at the big tournaments or friendlies.

If association football wants to be taken seriously in America, you have to start with younger players (before their teens) playing under a well-managed infrastructure with coaching up to world-class standards, otherwise we'll be forever mocked as the country that takes their footballing about as seriously as Trump's foreign policy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
PurpleAndGOAT wrote:
At the end of the day the US made it to the quarterfinals and that's something to be proud of


Actually it's the semifinals.


My bad semifinals
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Argentina has Aguero, Di Maria, and Pastore ON THE FREAKIN' BENCH!


How many other teams on the planet have that type of roster though? Nobody is thinking we're close to being #1. You can't do that overnight. I'd be thrilled if we were a top 10 team in the world.


Off the top of my head: Germany, France, Spain, Brazil, Belgium... the way football is taught and developed in the US is a mess. Just look at how academies are run around the world especially in Europe and you don't need a PhD in football implementation to tell you what's wrong with the US model.

Agreed. All this talk about head coaches ignores the fact that the fundamental state of soccer lags behinds many countries. Those countries have a culture of soccer. Having a domestic league is only one part of the puzzle.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject:

I've seen Pele play, Maradona, Kruyf, Geroge Best, the two Ronaldo's and many more. None of them was as good as Messi. He's the best player I've ever seen. A freaking genius. If you watched him score that free kick today VS the US team you know what I'm talking about.He's been scoring goals like that on a consistent basis for years. Just a phenomenal player and a pleasure to watch.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject:

No. 17 wrote:
I've seen Pele play, Maradona, Kruyf, Geroge Best, the two Ronaldo's and many more. None of them was as good as Messi. He's the best player I've ever seen. A freaking genius. If you watched him score that free kick today VS the US team you know what I'm talking about.He's been scoring goals like that on a consistent basis for years. Just a phenomenal player and a pleasure to watch.


Yeah it's a privilege that we get to watch the GOAT of the world's sport play in his prime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject:

We just lack so much skill on the ball. We completely lack that nuance. With the exception of a couple of build-ups in the game, the US pretty much was unable to keep the ball for more than a few seconds at a time. They would either just play kickball (not even try to keep it on their foot and just immediately boot it upfield, losing possession), or lacked the skill and vision to be able to pass it to a teammate to keep possession. It's not the final score that I find most disturbing. It's that we completely lacked any semblance of even keeping possession. I thought that Fabian Johnson and Michael Bradley were downright embarrassing tonight. And on that last goal, #3 (was that Birnbaum?) actually didn't even touch a ball right next to him, running away from it as if he thought a teammate right behind him would go with the ball. That was some embarrassing ish right there.

And how Wondo is even still on the team is just beyond astonishing. I will point this out forever: this is a player that earned a spot on a World Cup roster over the greatest player our country has ever had. It still blows my mind. By the way, it's a great credit to Landon that he is now in broadcasting and you wouldn't know at all that Klinsmann screwed him over so badly, with the way he talks about the team. He's more than fair in his commentary. Good on him for that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:29 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
We just lack so much skill on the ball. We completely lack that nuance. With the exception of a couple of build-ups in the game, the US pretty much was unable to keep the ball for more than a few seconds at a time. They would either just play kickball (not even try to keep it on their foot and just immediately boot it upfield, losing possession), or lacked the skill and vision to be able to pass it to a teammate to keep possession. It's not the final score that I find most disturbing. It's that we completely lacked any semblance of even keeping possession. I thought that Fabian Johnson and Michael Bradley were downright embarrassing tonight. And on that last goal, #3 (was that Birnbaum?) actually didn't even touch a ball right next to him, running away from it as if he thought a teammate right behind him would go with the ball. That was some embarrassing ish right there.

And how Wondo is even still on the team is just beyond astonishing. I will point this out forever: this is a player that earned a spot on a World Cup roster over the greatest player our country has ever had. It still blows my mind. By the way, it's a great credit to Landon that he is now in broadcasting and you wouldn't know at all that Klinsmann screwed him over so badly, with the way he talks about the team. He's more than fair in his commentary. Good on him for that.


Landon has the best interest of US Soccer and I'm sure it's water under the bridge for him
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Telling is the state of US football, when your most exciting prospects are squad players in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. Adu...flopped, Rossi...pulled a Benedict Arnold.


Are you really reducing yourself to trolling US soccer fans? People like you are just as annoying as the people who post stuff about how no one likes soccer in the US. We really don't give a flip about how things get done in Germany or Brazil. The US is not going to do things that way, and we really don't have much use for your condescension.

The problem with the US is that our elite athletes generally don't play soccer. If that ever changes, we will grind your beloved European teams under our cleats. But until that happens, we aren't going to catch up with Europe by changing the training methods for our third tier athletes. This should be obvious to you if you can lose the condescending attitude long enough to figure out what is going on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:54 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
We just lack so much skill on the ball. We completely lack that nuance. With the exception of a couple of build-ups in the game, the US pretty much was unable to keep the ball for more than a few seconds at a time. They would either just play kickball (not even try to keep it on their foot and just immediately boot it upfield, losing possession), or lacked the skill and vision to be able to pass it to a teammate to keep possession. It's not the final score that I find most disturbing. It's that we completely lacked any semblance of even keeping possession. I thought that Fabian Johnson and Michael Bradley were downright embarrassing tonight. And on that last goal, #3 (was that Birnbaum?) actually didn't even touch a ball right next to him, running away from it as if he thought a teammate right behind him would go with the ball. That was some embarrassing ish right there.


Fabian is stuck playing out of position. I respect the fact that he has handled it with good grace. Man, do we need to find a starting left back, though. Fabian needs to be in the midfield.

I like Bradley, but he cannot handle big moments like this game. He was just plain terrible tonight. How many times did he turn it over? Whenever he touched the ball, I winced. I think Bradley symbolizes the whole team -- good enough against Costa Rica and Paraguay, outclassed by an elite team. I understand the flak that Wondo is getting, but Bradley hurt us a lot more.

ChickenStu wrote:
And how Wondo is even still on the team is just beyond astonishing. I will point this out forever: this is a player that earned a spot on a World Cup roster over the greatest player our country has ever had. It still blows my mind. By the way, it's a great credit to Landon that he is now in broadcasting and you wouldn't know at all that Klinsmann screwed him over so badly, with the way he talks about the team. He's more than fair in his commentary. Good on him for that.


I thought that dumping Donovan was the best move that Klinsmann ever made. He was washed up, self important, and disinterested. Moving on from an iconic player is never easy, but Klinsmann pulled the plug. Some people are never going to forgive Klinsmann for it, but there are those of us who respect Klinsmann more because he had the guts to do it.

I am pleased to see that Donovan has gotten over his bitterness. It took a year or two, though. However, I wasn't that impressed with his commentary. How many times did he tell us that it's bad to turn the ball over in midfield? Really, Landon?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Telling is the state of US football, when your most exciting prospects are squad players in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. Adu...flopped, Rossi...pulled a Benedict Arnold.


Are you really reducing yourself to trolling US soccer fans? People like you are just as annoying as the people who post stuff about how no one likes soccer in the US. We really don't give a flip about how things get done in Germany or Brazil. The US is not going to do things that way, and we really don't have much use for your condescension.

The problem with the US is that our elite athletes generally don't play soccer. If that ever changes, we will grind your beloved European teams under our cleats. But until that happens, we aren't going to catch up with Europe by changing the training methods for our third tier athletes. This should be obvious to you if you can lose the condescending attitude long enough to figure out what is going on.


Wow. Jumping to conclusions here aren't we. I'm sorry Adu was hyped so much by America's sports media to just about "King James" levels that barring some miracle, he was doomed from the get go. I apologize for the way Rossi "betrayed" the country of his birth to go play for the Azurri because he was proud of his Italian roots.

Soccer isn't a sport where the biggest, most fit "elite athletes" dominate the sport, it's a skill only acquired from an early age. Like elite racers, if you don't acquire and accumulate those skills from before your formulative years, it's already too late. Youth in America don't have the passion for the sport like they do playing youth league baseball, basketball, Am. football namely because the coaching and infrastructure aren't there - that's the truth of the matter, not condescension. If you want to be an elite baseball, basketball, Am. football player, there exists a set path paved by predecessors towards establishing a professional career. I hope this changes, I hope the younger generation Americans who are watching the Copa want to see themselves playing for the US team in the future. Sadly their best bet as of now is get scouted by European academies to play overseas because the support network simply is not there in America at the moment.

I like you Aeneas and appreciate your contribution to the football thread, but sometimes you just jump into the deep end without thinking of the consequences.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject:

Two immediate changes I'd like to see for the US:

#1. Cut Wondolowski. He's garbage.

#2. Replace Michael Bradley in the middle. He lacks vision and control and does not distribute well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Any of you expected anything different?
US association football has a long way to go...


We're doing fine. We didn't have anywhere near our best lineup and we're playing the #1 team in the world and many think that Messi is the GOAT. We knew we were huge underdogs to win this just like almost any other team in the tournament.


No biggy steve, just remember that the US has done better than England in the past two WCs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:
Telling is the state of US football, when your most exciting prospects are squad players in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. Adu...flopped, Rossi...pulled a Benedict Arnold.


Are you really reducing yourself to trolling US soccer fans? People like you are just as annoying as the people who post stuff about how no one likes soccer in the US. We really don't give a flip about how things get done in Germany or Brazil. The US is not going to do things that way, and we really don't have much use for your condescension.

The problem with the US is that our elite athletes generally don't play soccer. If that ever changes, we will grind your beloved European teams under our cleats. But until that happens, we aren't going to catch up with Europe by changing the training methods for our third tier athletes. This should be obvious to you if you can lose the condescending attitude long enough to figure out what is going on.


Wow. Jumping to conclusions here aren't we. I'm sorry Adu was hyped so much by America's sports media to just about "King James" levels that barring some miracle, he was doomed from the get go. I apologize for the way Rossi "betrayed" the country of his birth to go play for the Azurri because he was proud of his Italian roots.

Soccer isn't a sport where the biggest, most fit "elite athletes" dominate the sport, it's a skill only acquired from an early age. Like elite racers, if you don't acquire and accumulate those skills from before your formulative years, it's already too late. Youth in America don't have the passion for the sport like they do playing youth league baseball, basketball, Am. football namely because the coaching and infrastructure aren't there - that's the truth of the matter, not condescension. If you want to be an elite baseball, basketball, Am. football player, there exists a set path paved by predecessors towards establishing a professional career. I hope this changes, I hope the younger generation Americans who are watching the Copa want to see themselves playing for the US team in the future. Sadly their best bet as of now is get scouted by European academies to play overseas because the support network simply is not there in America at the moment.

I like you Aeneas and appreciate your contribution to the football thread, but sometimes you just jump into the deep end without thinking of the consequences.


No, I'm calling you out for condescending nonsense. What do Adu and Rossi have to do with anything? It sounds like you're having an argument with yourself. When and if our elite athletes get interested in soccer, they will do it as kids, just like everyone else. We will develop them in the same way that we develop all of our other athletes. And we will do just fine, as is true for every other sport. If your point is that, right this moment, European academies are a good option, well, that's probably true. However, few of our elite athletes are pursuing soccer in the first place.

If you really think that soccer is not dominated by elite athletes, I truly don't know what to say to you. Last night's game was an excellent illustration of what happens when a team of good athletes hits a team of elite athletes. Scheme and organization will take you only so far. Klinsmann hit the nail on the head in his WSJ interview. We don't have a lot of the guys with the maniacal drive that you see from the truly elite athletes. Those guys are playing other sports.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject:

Why are Rossi and Adu being brought up in this thread? That's old news.

Right now soccer is far more popular in the US than it was 10 years ago. If anyone thinks the academies are bad now look at what they looked like 10 years ago. I thinking expecting us to become a top 5 team overnight is unrealistic. It will be interesting to see how popular the sport is 10 years from now. How many kids even thought about having a career as a soccer player 7-8 years ago or maybe even 5 years ago?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Forget having a "maniacal drive" like a Kobe Bryant. We don't even have a naturally gifted guy who can just skate by on skill alone. We don't have an Allen Iverson or Lamar Odom, who can make it to an elite level without putting in all the time and effort guys like Kobe do.

We have naturally gifted athletes in other sports, but not in soccer. That's what other countries have.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Two immediate changes I'd like to see for the US:

#1. Cut Wondolowski. He's garbage.

#2. Replace Michael Bradley in the middle. He lacks vision and control and does not distribute well.


Bradley should have been let go a long long time ago. I just don't understand the fixation on him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Forget having a "maniacal drive" like a Kobe Bryant. We don't even have a naturally gifted guy who can just skate by on skill alone. We don't have an Allen Iverson or Lamar Odom, who can make it to an elite level without putting in all the time and effort guys like Kobe do.

We have naturally gifted athletes in other sports, but not in soccer. That's what other countries have.


US has athletes. It has its workhorses and guys who will run the full 120' when required to do so. What we lack is skill, technique, flair for the game.

All US did last night against the Argies was to watch the ball and attempt to stay organized in anticipation of an attack. Absolutely no pressure on the ball and the brief precious moments in possession were wasted with a errant pass or a long ball to the wings which was taken care of by the opposing fullbacks. Zardes had nothing to do the entire night because the US has no CAM, nothing in the middle of the pitch to pose a threat to the Argentine central defense or Romero - the weakest link in their armor.

How do you get those talented players? You let your promising youngsters play against the best of their age group. African and Asian nations have been sending their talents to Spain, England, Netherlands, Portugal, and Germany and in return they're starting to see their exports develop the necessary skill to compete when they come of age.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:11 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
We just lack so much skill on the ball. We completely lack that nuance. With the exception of a couple of build-ups in the game, the US pretty much was unable to keep the ball for more than a few seconds at a time. They would either just play kickball (not even try to keep it on their foot and just immediately boot it upfield, losing possession), or lacked the skill and vision to be able to pass it to a teammate to keep possession. It's not the final score that I find most disturbing. It's that we completely lacked any semblance of even keeping possession. I thought that Fabian Johnson and Michael Bradley were downright embarrassing tonight. And on that last goal, #3 (was that Birnbaum?) actually didn't even touch a ball right next to him, running away from it as if he thought a teammate right behind him would go with the ball. That was some embarrassing ish right there.


Fabian is stuck playing out of position. I respect the fact that he has handled it with good grace. Man, do we need to find a starting left back, though. Fabian needs to be in the midfield.

I like Bradley, but he cannot handle big moments like this game. He was just plain terrible tonight. How many times did he turn it over? Whenever he touched the ball, I winced. I think Bradley symbolizes the whole team -- good enough against Costa Rica and Paraguay, outclassed by an elite team. I understand the flak that Wondo is getting, but Bradley hurt us a lot more.

ChickenStu wrote:
And how Wondo is even still on the team is just beyond astonishing. I will point this out forever: this is a player that earned a spot on a World Cup roster over the greatest player our country has ever had. It still blows my mind. By the way, it's a great credit to Landon that he is now in broadcasting and you wouldn't know at all that Klinsmann screwed him over so badly, with the way he talks about the team. He's more than fair in his commentary. Good on him for that.


I thought that dumping Donovan was the best move that Klinsmann ever made. He was washed up, self important, and disinterested. Moving on from an iconic player is never easy, but Klinsmann pulled the plug. Some people are never going to forgive Klinsmann for it, but there are those of us who respect Klinsmann more because he had the guts to do it.

I am pleased to see that Donovan has gotten over his bitterness. It took a year or two, though. However, I wasn't that impressed with his commentary. How many times did he tell us that it's bad to turn the ball over in midfield? Really, Landon?


I couldn't disagree more about Donovan. Look, it's one thing if your argument is that he didn't deserve to start anymore. Fine. But for a sub? Landon actually has some skill, had some quickness, and also had the requisite EXPERIENCE in big moments. It's no coincidence that a guy like Dempsey is still scoring a lot of our big goals even though he's certainly past his prime. We produce very few skilled players. It was too early to cut him from the national team at that moment in time. It was an embarrassment that Wondolowski made it over him and it was really bad that he also selected a player from the Bundesliga's 3rd division over him. (Yes, Julian Greene did score a goal in that World Cup, but still.) There was no way that there would've been someone more qualified than Landon Donovan to come into a World Cup game and give you 15-30 hard minutes. And it's not like the team wanted Landon gone and there was some mutiny. He got screwed, plain and simple, because Klinsmann didn't like him personally.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject:

Gatekeeper wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Forget having a "maniacal drive" like a Kobe Bryant. We don't even have a naturally gifted guy who can just skate by on skill alone. We don't have an Allen Iverson or Lamar Odom, who can make it to an elite level without putting in all the time and effort guys like Kobe do.

We have naturally gifted athletes in other sports, but not in soccer. That's what other countries have.


US has athletes. It has its workhorses and guys who will run the full 120' when required to do so. What we lack is skill, technique, flair for the game.

All US did last night against the Argies was to watch the ball and attempt to stay organized in anticipation of an attack. Absolutely no pressure on the ball and the brief precious moments in possession were wasted with a errant pass or a long ball to the wings which was taken care of by the opposing fullbacks. Zardes had nothing to do the entire night because the US has no CAM, nothing in the middle of the pitch to pose a threat to the Argentine central defense or Romero - the weakest link in their armor.

How do you get those talented players? You let your promising youngsters play against the best of their age group. African and Asian nations have been sending their talents to Spain, England, Netherlands, Portugal, and Germany and in return they're starting to see their exports develop the necessary skill to compete when they come of age.



And this is a major hurdle why the US will unlikely be one of the elites in soccer. The MLS is a poor substitute for a league. The pay sucks compared to other leagues around the world. The US also has other major sports which pay a lot better. So kids that are good in sports will most likely end up in one of the major pro sports other than soccer. Also most other countries don't have alternative to soccer that pays well. So they have no choice but to go to Europe and hone their skills. Would any American parent do it for their kid when they could enroll their kids in football, basketball or baseball leagues and keep their kid at home in an environment that they are familiar with? Don't forget college soccer in the US doesn't develop the skills that is necessary to compete in the elite levels in Europe. You are talking about kids playing soccer as young as 3 or 4 elsewhere around the world and then enrolling them in a ladder system with one of the major clubs.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
I couldn't disagree more about Donovan. Look, it's one thing if your argument is that he didn't deserve to start anymore. Fine. But for a sub? Landon actually has some skill, had some quickness, and also had the requisite EXPERIENCE in big moments. It's no coincidence that a guy like Dempsey is still scoring a lot of our big goals even though he's certainly past his prime. We produce very few skilled players. It was too early to cut him from the national team at that moment in time. It was an embarrassment that Wondolowski made it over him and it was really bad that he also selected a player from the Bundesliga's 3rd division over him. (Yes, Julian Greene did score a goal in that World Cup, but still.) There was no way that there would've been someone more qualified than Landon Donovan to come into a World Cup game and give you 15-30 hard minutes. And it's not like the team wanted Landon gone and there was some mutiny. He got screwed, plain and simple, because Klinsmann didn't like him personally.


Landon Donovan is probably the most polarizing figure in the history of the USMNT. I was happy when Klinsmann dropped him, and I have no doubt that we had a better team as a result. Unlike Donovan, Dempsey didn't take a sabbatical. He's still got the fire. Donovan had lost it. Getting dropped from the team sure did seem to rekindle the fire in Donovan, though. He actually played pretty well the rest of the way out.

I know that we'll never agree on this. As best I can tell, the supporter base was split right down the middle on Donovan. That was true to some extent all along. There were a lot of us who always had mixed feelings about his play and who were underwhelmed by lack of ambition.
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