Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67629 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject:
Something I was always puzzled by, why Cochran didn't represent OJ in his civil case. Was he asked? Was he not asked? Was he asked and he refused? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18203 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject:
Oh man! Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.
Spent 10 weeks watching the OJ drama plus more hours watching two other documentaries covering the case and the deposition at his civil trial. I'm trying to imagine what this series will cover that wasn't in any of those.
If you haven't seen "O.J. Speaks: The Hidden Tapes" it's pretty revealing, especially when you hear the answers A.C. Cowlings gives in his deposition. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant
Here's more about the documentary O.J.: Made In America
Quote:
It is the defining cultural tale of modern America - a saga of race, celebrity, media, violence, and the criminal justice system. And two decades after its unforgettable climax, it continues to fascinate, polarize, and even, yes, develop new chapters. Now, the producers of ESPN's award-winning "30 for 30" have made it the subject of their first documentary-event and most ambitious project yet. From Peabody and Emmy-award winning director Ezra Edelman, it's "O.J.: Made in America".
"O.J." revisits - and redefines - it all. The domestic abuse. The police investigation. The white Bronco chase. The trial of the century. The motive, the blood, the glove. The verdict. The aftermath. Drawing upon more than seventy interviews- from longtime friends and colleagues of Simpson to the recognizable protagonists of the murder investigation to observers and commentators with distinct connections to the story - the docu-event is an engrossing, compelling, and unforgettable look at a tantalizing saga. Because at the end of what seems like a search for the real truth about O.J. Simpson, what's revealed just as powerfully is a collection of indelible, unshakeable, and haunting truths about America, and about ourselves.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67629 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:22 pm Post subject:
numero-ocho wrote:
Oh man! Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.
Spent 10 weeks watching the OJ drama plus more hours watching two other documentaries covering the case and the deposition at his civil trial. I'm trying to imagine what this series will cover that wasn't in any of those.
If you haven't seen "O.J. Speaks: The Hidden Tapes" it's pretty revealing, especially when you hear the answers A.C. Cowlings gives in his deposition.
We're rowing the same canoe. AC appeared to be a man who didn't want to face the truth. OJ Speaks: The Hidden Tapes say OJ told, I believe his agent and Al Cowlings, he did it. Maybe that's why AC said he thought OJ would confess to the murders.
O.J. Made I America starts tonight 1 of 5 parts 9:00pm ABC7. I have it on record. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52654 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Barry Scheck and his associate (I forget his name). The blood evidence, poorly handled with maybe a third of a tube of missing blood, with odd number sequencing of the blood spatters, along with something I can't recall exactly, about clothes or a suitcase in his bedroom, and the timing or placement thereof. But most importantly, it was when Shapiro got the police to lock into their testimony at the Grand Jury hearing (which we did not see) that they felt it was an emergency situation that compelled them to jump the fence, without a warrant, and enter OJ's property, simply because they saw a couple small drops of blood in the driveway, which began the whole questioning of just how honest and forthright was the testimony of the police thereafter.
Yeah, the guys who blatantly contradicted their own science when they were given a nice paycheck.
All of that other "contradictory" evidence was refuted by the prosecution's experts. Including why the glove didn't fit.
The bottomline for me, the whole defense rested on the alleged "corruption" of the police - a group they attempted to portray as bumbling and incapable of professional police work. But it can't work both ways. A group of inept fools can't pull of such an amazing frame job - especially in the first couple of hours when they have no knowledge of OJ's circumstances and whose blood they are dealing with. How could they possibly know whose blood was what and what to "plant" where. It would have to be a pretty presumptive and foolish gamble to attempt such a frame job with their personal risks so great when there is no personal reward for doing so (other than Ferman's personal racist views).
Not to mention the preposterous diversionary theories of "Brazilian neckties" etc.
The defense case didn't add up at all - but it accomplished it's job. And as I said, that's all that matters at this point.
What science was contradicted?
Check spent his previous career building up the unquestionable identifiability of DNA matches while prosecuting cases. OJ money shows up and suddenly he's arguing that DNA evidence isn't really all that full proof and full of holes.
The guy went completely against everything he had said in prior cases.
Quote:
Regarding the blood evidence, the one guy seemed inept and did not follow protocol and by the time the blood got to the lab, some was missing. Though there was some other, non convincing explanation by the prosecution, lost blood from one place to another, is quite a problem when the blood evidence was the strongest.
None of that controverted the fact that the blood matched between Simpson's home and the crime scene. Blood was lost as part of the process - but the fact that there was blood "missing" doesn't change the fact that the DNA matched at both scenes.
Quote:
He was acquitted because the police appeared to have a motive to sweeten the evidence, since they were disingenuous from the beginning, the timeline was real tight, the lack of the weapon, and, in my mind the possible tampering with the blood evidence.
The timeline matched exactly to the events and with the evidence of OJ's movements that night. And that's the point. There's no way the police could have known what OJ's movements were that night, and what pieces of evidence to manipulate in order to pull of the elaborate ruse in which to frame him for a crime he allegedly didn't commit. Not to mention the limo drivers testimony that tied it together There was so much to the evidence that went far beyond a glove that didn't fit and a some missing blood. The idea that ALL of the evidence, when considered in it's entirety didn't clearly indicate OJ's guilt is preposterous.
Quote:
Based on the trial, the jury got it right.
No, they didn't. Quite clearly. The actual evidence was unequivocally clear. But Cochran was able to put such spin on inconsequential things like rumor, conjecture, and hyperbole as if they were actually evidence that some people would like to think they did. Despite their disfunction, the prosecution more than proved the case. Unfortunately Cochran was able to fool people by muddying top the waters with BS and Ito's ineptitude allowed him to do so.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67629 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:53 pm Post subject:
Made In America put me in mind of Tiger Woods. It's giving me a new perspective on OJ. I'm seeing parts of his personality I didn't know existed. The title makes sense. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Barry Scheck and his associate (I forget his name). The blood evidence, poorly handled with maybe a third of a tube of missing blood, with odd number sequencing of the blood spatters, along with something I can't recall exactly, about clothes or a suitcase in his bedroom, and the timing or placement thereof. But most importantly, it was when Shapiro got the police to lock into their testimony at the Grand Jury hearing (which we did not see) that they felt it was an emergency situation that compelled them to jump the fence, without a warrant, and enter OJ's property, simply because they saw a couple small drops of blood in the driveway, which began the whole questioning of just how honest and forthright was the testimony of the police thereafter.
Yeah, the guys who blatantly contradicted their own science when they were given a nice paycheck.
All of that other "contradictory" evidence was refuted by the prosecution's experts. Including why the glove didn't fit.
The bottomline for me, the whole defense rested on the alleged "corruption" of the police - a group they attempted to portray as bumbling and incapable of professional police work. But it can't work both ways. A group of inept fools can't pull of such an amazing frame job - especially in the first couple of hours when they have no knowledge of OJ's circumstances and whose blood they are dealing with. How could they possibly know whose blood was what and what to "plant" where. It would have to be a pretty presumptive and foolish gamble to attempt such a frame job with their personal risks so great when there is no personal reward for doing so (other than Ferman's personal racist views).
Not to mention the preposterous diversionary theories of "Brazilian neckties" etc.
The defense case didn't add up at all - but it accomplished it's job. And as I said, that's all that matters at this point.
What science was contradicted?
Check spent his previous career building up the unquestionable identifiability of DNA matches while prosecuting cases. OJ money shows up and suddenly he's arguing that DNA evidence isn't really all that full proof and full of holes.
The guy went completely against everything he had said in prior cases.
Quote:
Regarding the blood evidence, the one guy seemed inept and did not follow protocol and by the time the blood got to the lab, some was missing. Though there was some other, non convincing explanation by the prosecution, lost blood from one place to another, is quite a problem when the blood evidence was the strongest.
None of that controverted the fact that the blood matched between Simpson's home and the crime scene. Blood was lost as part of the process - but the fact that there was blood "missing" doesn't change the fact that the DNA matched at both scenes.
Quote:
He was acquitted because the police appeared to have a motive to sweeten the evidence, since they were disingenuous from the beginning, the timeline was real tight, the lack of the weapon, and, in my mind the possible tampering with the blood evidence.
The timeline matched exactly to the events and with the evidence of OJ's movements that night. And that's the point. There's no way the police could have known what OJ's movements were that night, and what pieces of evidence to manipulate in order to pull of the elaborate ruse in which to frame him for a crime he allegedly didn't commit. Not to mention the limo drivers testimony that tied it together There was so much to the evidence that went far beyond a glove that didn't fit and a some missing blood. The idea that ALL of the evidence, when considered in it's entirety didn't clearly indicate OJ's guilt is preposterous.
Quote:
Based on the trial, the jury got it right.
No, they didn't. Quite clearly. The actual evidence was unequivocally clear. But Cochran was able to put such spin on inconsequential things like rumor, conjecture, and hyperbole as if they were actually evidence that some people would like to think they did. Despite their disfunction, the prosecution more than proved the case. Unfortunately Cochran was able to fool people by muddying top the waters with BS and Ito's ineptitude allowed him to do so.
First, I don't recall, at all, that Scheck was arguing about DNA testing. He was arguing about the crime scene sloppiness, cross contamination.
This is too complicated to go point by point here as the DNA portion of the trial was quite laborious. It was days of testimony and it is hard to explain here without the overhead diagram that Scheck used. In, short, the police lied about why they had to enter OJ's house, and considering the relationship of the LA police with the community, their honesty was then always suspect.
OJ's blood was missing from the test tube. This is a huge problem for the prosecution. When the samples of blood drops were gathered at the Nicole crime scene, they numbered from something like 1 to 50. 49 were in not only numerical sequence, but geographical (splatter #1 is just outside the door, spatter #2 is six inches beyond, splatter #3, another six inches and on an on) as one would imagine a technician would gather them--except the last number, the incriminating one. The very last number, that should have been in the middle of the logical geographical sequence (say between 20-21) was the blood from OJ. Why was this out of geographical sequence if you are moving along the trail of blood? Considering that some of the OJ blood was missing and that the seal was not secure and noted properly on the test tube, one can infer that the blood from the test tube could have been used for that blood droplet that was the last one numbered but out of the logical geographical sequence one would expect.
Barry Scheck demonstrated this exceptionally well, pointing out on a screen the numbered sequence of blood splatters, as one would expect, but then dramatically jumping back to the middle of the sequence for the very last numbered sample, which just happened to be the one of blood from OJ.
Of course, there was so much more that this brief single episode from the case having to do with the collection techniques, storing in a heated van, and cross contamination.
Is is possible, as another reasonable explanation, considering all of the police conduct beginning with lying about the "emergency" nature at OJ's home, entering without a warrant, that the missing blood was used to become that very last sample? _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52654 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:00 am Post subject:
^^^^^
Again, to believe the OJ defense would be to believe that the LAPD Homicide Division were simultaneously the most sloppy detectives ever while also being the most clever AND who had the clairvoyance to know that their plan could work without knowing if it were even physically possible for OJ to have committed the crime.
We both agree that the Dream Team did it's job successfully. Beyond that we differ, and that's not going to change.
Again, to believe the OJ defense would be to believe that the LAPD Homicide Division were simultaneously the most sloppy detectives ever while also being the most clever AND who had the clairvoyance to know that their plan could work without knowing if it were even physically possible for OJ to have committed the crime.
We both agree that the Dream Team did it's job successfully. Beyond that we differ, and that's not going to change.
That is not what is being said here. The crime scene technicians were sloppy and the detectives' actions were suspect.
If want to hear Barry Scheck's summation, you might see that he presents a good case for reasonable doubt: _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Again, to believe the OJ defense would be to believe that the LAPD Homicide Division were simultaneously the most sloppy detectives ever while also being the most clever AND who had the clairvoyance to know that their plan could work without knowing if it were even physically possible for OJ to have committed the crime.
We both agree that the Dream Team did it's job successfully. Beyond that we differ, and that's not going to change.
But we know that after the OJ case they had to change the way they handled evidence and not to mention change procedures on how to prevent contamination in the lab.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52654 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:32 am Post subject:
lakersken80 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
^^^^^
Again, to believe the OJ defense would be to believe that the LAPD Homicide Division were simultaneously the most sloppy detectives ever while also being the most clever AND who had the clairvoyance to know that their plan could work without knowing if it were even physically possible for OJ to have committed the crime.
We both agree that the Dream Team did it's job successfully. Beyond that we differ, and that's not going to change.
But we know that after the OJ case they had to change the way they handled evidence and not to mention change procedures on how to prevent contamination in the lab.
They no doubt made mistakes, that I haven't disputed. The question is whether those mistakes actually tie to intent.
Why does everything have to be biased based on your race?
If someone was caught murdering his wife and her lover, I wouldn't wish his punishment to be more or less based on his race, although I would also think that the wife shouldn't be having lovers on the side.
In an ideal world it shouldn't but that's completely unrealistic when the accused was a black man and the victims were white.
It was a case of domestic violence that was crafted into being about racism thanks to the LAPD's incompetence and well the already thick racial tensions in LA due to the Rodney King verdict.
I wonder what the turning point was when most black people started to think he did it.
It was a complicated case with a lot of evidence and a lot of defense that countered that evidence. It is easy to forget the detail. I have just been reviewing the case, and upon review, I can now remember better why there is reasonable doubt. _________________ "A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo"
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67629 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:11 am Post subject:
kaoss128 wrote:
I wonder what the turning point was when most black people started to think he did it.
How do you determine a turning point? Black people formed their opinions of guilt or innocence from the beginning of the trial. Some believe he was guilty but wouldn't say so. Some believe he was guilty and voiced as much. Some thought he was innocent and also voiced as much. Some minds changed. There's no way to determine a turning point. Most is a hypothesis, one I give little credence to. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
I don't blame anyone but the prosecutors and DA for botching the case. Of course OJ's defense team was going to pull out all the stops to get a not guilty verdict.
Yep. There were countless miscalculations and assumptions made by the DA's office, which were compounded by their dysfunctional relationships. But one can't discount Ito's desire to make himself a part of the spectacle with behavior and decisions that allowed things that never should have happened in his court room.
The entire trial was a circus and the not guilty verdict of course lunacy. The whole "LAPD planted the evidence" theory was bunk beyond belief but there are nuts who think the moon landings were faked. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67629 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject:
LakerLanny wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't blame anyone but the prosecutors and DA for botching the case. Of course OJ's defense team was going to pull out all the stops to get a not guilty verdict.
Yep. There were countless miscalculations and assumptions made by the DA's office, which were compounded by their dysfunctional relationships. But one can't discount Ito's desire to make himself a part of the spectacle with behavior and decisions that allowed things that never should have happened in his court room.
The entire trial was a circus and the not guilty verdict of course lunacy. The whole "LAPD planted the evidence" theory was bunk beyond belief but there are nuts who think the moon landings were faked.
It was definitely a circus. I think the verdict was watched world wide. Nielsen rating for the OJ verdict _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
I don't blame anyone but the prosecutors and DA for botching the case. Of course OJ's defense team was going to pull out all the stops to get a not guilty verdict.
Yep. There were countless miscalculations and assumptions made by the DA's office, which were compounded by their dysfunctional relationships. But one can't discount Ito's desire to make himself a part of the spectacle with behavior and decisions that allowed things that never should have happened in his court room.
The entire trial was a circus and the not guilty verdict of course lunacy. The whole "LAPD planted the evidence" theory was bunk beyond belief but there are nuts who think the moon landings were faked.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52654 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject:
LakerLanny wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't blame anyone but the prosecutors and DA for botching the case. Of course OJ's defense team was going to pull out all the stops to get a not guilty verdict.
Yep. There were countless miscalculations and assumptions made by the DA's office, which were compounded by their dysfunctional relationships. But one can't discount Ito's desire to make himself a part of the spectacle with behavior and decisions that allowed things that never should have happened in his court room.
The entire trial was a circus and the not guilty verdict of course lunacy. The whole "LAPD planted the evidence" theory was bunk beyond belief but there are nuts who think the moon landings were faked.
It's more than clear the LAPD made some mistakes. And I believe they may have even taken some liberties in the early stages of the investigation. But yeah, the whole frame job thing makes no sense. Especially in the context that the OJ team tried to frame it. Sloppy incompetence combined cunning manipulation doesn't happen.
Those that support "not guilty" verdict can certainly point to several missteps and questionable actions that call into question some of the evidence. But when everything is weighed in it's entirety, the overall quantity and quality of the evidence combined with motive and opportunity was clearly beyond any reasonable doubt introduced.
But as I have said in this thread, the OJ Dream Team was successful in convincing the jury otherwise (not that it was going to be difficult given the biases involved) and that is all that matters and a murder walked. Nothing is going to change that.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:51 pm Post subject:
rough time ..... the combination of race and money sells. If that was PJ from Compton instead of OJ from Brentwood, we wouldnt have given two (bleep). Poor black guy from Compton kills two white people just dont do it. But you throw in that rich, handsome, all American black guy who jumps over chair as he runs through the airport, cha ching.
Black folks dont trust the justice system. Hasnt worked during for us during segregation and the Jim Crow 60s, didnt work for us when we were getting our asses kicked by the police off camera, didnt work for us when we get our asses kicked on camera and it doesn't work for us today.
So when hegot off, I know a lot of white folks came up to me and said, "I now know how you feel" ...... atleast for one day, they did.
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Oh man! 
