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Dreamshake
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 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: |
The Lakers drafted Magic after winning a coin flip, being one of two teams with equal chance to get him. How you were able to compare this with what Lebron did is beyond me... |
Magic knew LA won the coin flip prior to deciding to leave school and he left because he wanted to play with Kareem. And there is nothing wrong with that. He used his available option to do what was best for him.
Good attempt to redirect though. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | That's not what I meant. When a player of Kobe's caliber really wants to get traded and insists on it, he will usually get traded. |
Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing.
However, I can think of a superstar who managed to force his team to trade him when he was under contract for another four years as Kobe was at the time. What superstars are you thinking of that have managed to pull this trick off? |
he had four years left on his contract but had the option to void it in two years. |
I doubt the Lakers would have traded him. Even if Kobe sulked and made himself a pain in the ass like Vince Carter did, the Lakers were making money hand over fist with him so I think they would have just rode it out. If he was still sulking a year later with the threat of opting out, it might be different. But two years out - I don't see it. When the rubber meets the road, NBA owners are businessmen, and sulking stars don't bother them if the bottom line is sound.
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Has Buss ever folded to a players ultimatum? |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Has Buss ever folded to a players ultimatum? |
He got rid of Westhead after Magic made the demands...does that count? |
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No. 17
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: |
The Lakers drafted Magic after winning a coin flip, being one of two teams with equal chance to get him. How you were able to compare this with what Lebron did is beyond me... |
Magic knew LA won the coin flip prior to deciding to leave school and he left because he wanted to play with Kareem. And there is nothing wrong with that. He used his available option to do what was best for him.
Good attempt to redirect though. |
It doesn't matter if he knew about it or not.
He was a 20 year old rookie still unproven in the NBA getting drafted by the Lakers. How does that compare with LBJ hooking up with Wade and Bosch, two proven NBA superstars? two totally different scenarios that you somehow are trying to equate...
It was a draft, not free agency. Did you expect the Lakers to draft someone else other than Magic? really? did Magic call up Worthy secretly and told him let's join Kareem on the Lakers? and keep it a sectre for a whole year?
Dude I'm done with you in this thread.
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KobeRe-Loaded
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Has Buss ever folded to a players ultimatum? |
He got rid of Westhead after Magic made the demands...does that count? |
Not really, coaches are dispensable. Heck ... Phil, Rudy, Phil, Brown, D'Antoni .... 
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No. 17
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | That's not what I meant. When a player of Kobe's caliber really wants to get traded and insists on it, he will usually get traded. |
Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing.
However, I can think of a superstar who managed to force his team to trade him when he was under contract for another four years as Kobe was at the time. What superstars are you thinking of that have managed to pull this trick off? |
he had four years left on his contract but had the option to void it in two years. |
I doubt the Lakers would have traded him. Even if Kobe sulked and made himself a pain in the ass like Vince Carter did, the Lakers were making money hand over fist with him so I think they would have just rode it out. If he was still sulking a year later with the threat of opting out, it might be different. But two years out - I don't see it. When the rubber meets the road, NBA owners are businessmen, and sulking stars don't bother them if the bottom line is sound. |
Well that's all speculation. The point is Kobe did have some leverage and thankfully got some action as a result.
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No. 17
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Has Buss ever folded to a players ultimatum? |
He got rid of Westhead after Magic made the demands...does that count? |
Not really, coaches are dispensable. Heck ... Phil, Rudy, Phil, Brown, D'Antoni .... |
Magic got rid of Paul westhead. True story. He wan't going to play the two guard with Norm Nixon at the point. couple years later Norm Nixon was traded to the clippers and Byron Scott took his place.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | That's not what I meant. When a player of Kobe's caliber really wants to get traded and insists on it, he will usually get traded. |
Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing.
However, I can think of a superstar who managed to force his team to trade him when he was under contract for another four years as Kobe was at the time. What superstars are you thinking of that have managed to pull this trick off? |
he had four years left on his contract but had the option to void it in two years. |
I doubt the Lakers would have traded him. Even if Kobe sulked and made himself a pain in the ass like Vince Carter did, the Lakers were making money hand over fist with him so I think they would have just rode it out. If he was still sulking a year later with the threat of opting out, it might be different. But two years out - I don't see it. When the rubber meets the road, NBA owners are businessmen, and sulking stars don't bother them if the bottom line is sound. |
Well that's all speculation. The point is Kobe did have some leverage and thankfully got some action as a result. |
I don't see what leverage Kobe had -- being able to leave in 2 years isn't really a big threat. And I don't know of any action that resulted directly from his demanding a trade. |
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No. 17
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing. |
These are your own words.
And the Lakers did make some moves after that. They traded for Pau Gasol which was a huge trade. You could say they would've done it anyways, I guess we'll never know.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: | | Quote: | | Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing. |
These are your own words.
And the Lakers did make some moves after that. They traded for Pau Gasol which was a huge trade. You could say they would've done it anyways, I guess we'll never know. |
The Gasol trade was made nearly a year after Kobe made his trade demand. There wasn't a cause and effect. The Gasol trade was a once in a lifetime deal that the Lakers would have done anytime, even if Kobe was long gone. |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: | | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Has Buss ever folded to a players ultimatum? |
He got rid of Westhead after Magic made the demands...does that count? |
Not really, coaches are dispensable. Heck ... Phil, Rudy, Phil, Brown, D'Antoni .... |
Magic got rid of Paul westhead. True story. He wan't going to play the two guard with Norm Nixon at the point. couple years later Norm Nixon was traded to the clippers and Byron Scott took his place. |
Yes, I know my Laker history. I'm trying to say firing a coach is not a big deal.
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No. 17
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | Quote: | | Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing. |
These are your own words.
And the Lakers did make some moves after that. They traded for Pau Gasol which was a huge trade. You could say they would've done it anyways, I guess we'll never know. |
The Gasol trade was made nearly a year after Kobe made his trade demand. There wasn't a cause and effect. The Gasol trade was a once in a lifetime deal that the Lakers would have done anytime, even if Kobe was long gone. |
Again - you're speculating. We will never know since neither one of us knows the inner workings of Lakers management. All I know is for years they did nothing, and one year after his trade demands they came up with this trade. Of course it could be a coincidence.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | No. 17 wrote: | | Quote: | | Normally, superstars who want to be traded have only succeeded when they had the leverage of leaving within a year or two as a free agent. Teams will cave when they sense the star will leave for nothing. |
These are your own words.
And the Lakers did make some moves after that. They traded for Pau Gasol which was a huge trade. You could say they would've done it anyways, I guess we'll never know. |
The Gasol trade was made nearly a year after Kobe made his trade demand. There wasn't a cause and effect. The Gasol trade was a once in a lifetime deal that the Lakers would have done anytime, even if Kobe was long gone. |
Again - you're speculating. We will never know since neither one of us knows the inner workings of Lakers management. All I know is for years they did nothing, and one year after his trade demands they came up with this trade. Of course it could be a coincidence. |
LOL -- I don't know what you like more: making up your own wild speculations or grumbling when anyone else speculates. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | tox wrote: |
That's also the reason a FO assembling a superteam doesn't get any backlash to the players involved --- the players lack agency and as a result you can't criticize them for being anti-competitive. |
Sure you can. You just choose not to. Magic left school early to play with Kareem. That was his choice. He lobbied to get stud help to LA. So did Bird. Prior to Rodman coming to Chicago they ran it past Jordan and Pippen. They didn't care because they wanted to win. Malone and Payton don't come to LA if Shaq and Kobe have an issue with it.
Acting as if star players have no say in who winds up on their teams or who coaches them is not accurate.
Lot's of stars played with great talent, some with much greater talent than LeBron has ever played with. They had no issue with being on the best teams and having a competitive advantage. If it's ok for Magic and Kareem to play together then I really don't care who plays together. Those two are both arguably the best ever. |
If you're going to respond to my post, why not actually respond to the argument I am making? None of those guys, barring Kareem, is close to what Wade was in 2010, and Magic is a totally different scenario (LeBron was a 2x MVP going to join another Top-5 player, Magic was a rookie). Of (bleep) course players want their teams to improve, thanks for informing me.
The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen.
You think Kobe would want to join LeBron in 2007 after his team failed him against in the playoffs, and LeBron let some (bleep) team to the Finals? Of course not, he wanted to beat LeBron's ass. And I bet the same thing was true of Bird and Magic, Hakeem and Jordan, etc.
You can construct every single strawman argument you please, but it's undeniable that there is no precedent for a superstar joining one of his primary rivals. And let's not forget how good Wade was in 2010, that Heat team was as much Wade's as LeBron's for the '10-'11 season (and was totally his team in the Finals). |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | People love the notion of a superstar on their team recruiting another star to join them, but they hate the idea of a competing team doing this. The same people here who criticized Lebron and Wade for "colluding" also wanted Kobe to recruit star free agents by talking to them during all-star games.
Players are hypocrites too. Larry Bird said he would never join with star players, but he never mentioned he spent his career surrounded by Hall of Famers and was delighted to add former MVP Bill Walton as a backup.
Both Bird and his team never worried about being competitive. They said "gimme gimme gimme." And it's funny this stuff comes from Lakers fan because no group of fans is as "gimme, gimme, gimme" as we are. |
Again, missing the point. It's not about wanting to improve the team, it is about wanting to beat the (bleep) out of your rivals. Was Bird ok with adding a perpetually injured former MVP to the bench of his team? Of course. Why wouldn't he be?
The question is would Bird want to join the very guys he needs to beat? I don't think so, not when we are talking about literally the ten-twelve best players ever. Again, I gave the example very clearly. Does KD joining Boston come off as anti-competitive? Not really, that is a good team especially if he comes with another max guy, but he is not joining one of his rivals. He still needs to beat LeBron, Curry, Leonard, and the other great players of the league to win it all. If KD went to the Warriors, that same issue with LeBron is there.
Understand I am not asking you to agree with this judgment. I am stating that this opinion is out there, and it's a perfectly fair and consistent way of seeing the NBA. Just like it's valid to say "I don't really give a (bleep), I just want to see what a player does in the circumstance he is in, no matter how he ended up in those circumstances." |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| No. 17 wrote: |
It doesn't matter if he knew about it or not. |
Well actually it does, considering it was Magic choosing whether or not he wanted to come out based on who could pick him first and the deal they could negotiate pre draft. But again, great attempt. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen. . |
Huh? Lebron and Wade -- who never once met in the playoffs -- were "primary competitors" but Rodman and Jordan -- who met in the eastern conference finals three times -- weren't?
Karl Malone and Shaq battled in the western conference finals but they weren't competitors?
It just astounds me how people twists themselves into pretzels bashing guys for doing something and then rationalizing that it's OK for their guys to do the same thing. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | tox wrote: |
That's also the reason a FO assembling a superteam doesn't get any backlash to the players involved --- the players lack agency and as a result you can't criticize them for being anti-competitive. |
Sure you can. You just choose not to. Magic left school early to play with Kareem. That was his choice. He lobbied to get stud help to LA. So did Bird. Prior to Rodman coming to Chicago they ran it past Jordan and Pippen. They didn't care because they wanted to win. Malone and Payton don't come to LA if Shaq and Kobe have an issue with it.
Acting as if star players have no say in who winds up on their teams or who coaches them is not accurate.
Lot's of stars played with great talent, some with much greater talent than LeBron has ever played with. They had no issue with being on the best teams and having a competitive advantage. If it's ok for Magic and Kareem to play together then I really don't care who plays together. Those two are both arguably the best ever. |
If you're going to respond to my post, why not actually respond to the argument I am making? None of those guys, barring Kareem, is close to what Wade was in 2010, and Magic is a totally different scenario (LeBron was a 2x MVP going to join another Top-5 player, Magic was a rookie). Of (bleep) course players want their teams to improve, thanks for informing me.
The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen.
You think Kobe would want to join LeBron in 2007 after his team failed him against in the playoffs, and LeBron let some (bleep) team to the Finals? Of course not, he wanted to beat LeBron's ass. And I bet the same thing was true of Bird and Magic, Hakeem and Jordan, etc.
You can construct every single strawman argument you please, but it's undeniable that there is no precedent for a superstar joining one of his primary rivals. And let's not forget how good Wade was in 2010, that Heat team was as much Wade's as LeBron's for the '10-'11 season (and was totally his team in the Finals). |
I'm sorry, how was Wade a rival? Or Bosh? Did they ever meet in the postseason?
Rodman going to Chicago, that's an example of rivals playing together. Magic trying to get Aguirre to LA, etc.
No precedent? I just listed one. Moses Malone to Philly after they lost in the Finals would be another. I guess West and Baylor weren't rivals of Wilt?
Wade was great in 2010. He wasn't a Magic or Kareem. If it's ok for those two to play together, or Shaq and Kobe, I really could care less who LeBron plays with. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | tox wrote: | No, it strikes people as anti-competitive. People forget this with hindsight, but at the time, Wade had been a 26.5/6.5/5 guy (and 30/7.5/5 the year before) and unquestionably a Top-5 guy. This in addition to a 24/11 guy who was unquestionably a Top-10 guy.
Does anyone think people would complain if Durant left for Boston? That was a 48 win team without him, and they can add another max in addition to him. That turns into a 60+ win team real quickly. The difference? Durant is the unquestioned #1/ alpha guy. He's not joining one of his biggest competitors, like Wade was to LeBron.
Him joining the Warriors would be comparable, and his legacy as a potential Top-10 all time guy would be shot. He might not get the same vitriolic backlash, but that's more a function of him not vying to be the GOAT.
That's also the reason a FO assembling a superteam doesn't get any backlash to the players involved --- the players lack agency and as a result you can't criticize them for being anti-competitive. |
What? This is a message board for the most freaking anti-competitive team in the freaking history of the league. Our whole history is based on stacking stars on top of each other. So Lebron goes out and does the same thing, and it's unethical. I just don't get it.
Some players are going to take control of their careers. Kobe sure tried to do it. If Dr. Buss had let him, he would have bolted for the Bulls. This is why guys like Lebron demand opt-outs now. I find it weird to see people criticizing Lebron for teaming up with a competitor. Seriously? Players in every sport do this every year. |
The third person who doesn't address the argument I am making. Of course you need to stack talent to win. The question is how you do it. Do you join your fiercest competitors, or do you find another way to beat them down en route to a ring? Note the distinction here: I don't criticize LeBron for teaming up with Bosh --- I criticize him for teaming up with Wade. Do you understand why?
Kobe was fed up with a team that didn't appear to even try to compete. Fair enough. I don't blame LeBron for leaving the (bleep) management in Cleveland in 2010 either. Did Kobe try to angle his way into Dallas (an actual possibility according to Cuban?) to play with reigning MVP Dirk? Into Cleveland to play with an ascendant LeBron who just led a team of scrubs into the Finals? Into San Antonio to play with Duncan and the champion Spurs?
No, he just wanted to play on a team that wasn't total trash, with a guy like Luol Deng still there (a good player who isn't exactly Dirk/ LeBron/ Duncan). If LeBron went to Chicago to team up with Rose (who hadn't quite broken out), or to Toronto to team up with Bosh (24/11 guy), or team up with Stoudamire in New York, I would not be sitting here criticizing his decision. Just as I would not criticize Durant leaving OKC for going to Boston (supposing Boston were a massive upgrade).
I criticize him for going to play with one of the highest echelon players in the league (in 2010, LeBron/ Kobe/ Wade/ Paul/ Howard/ Durant? were undoubtedly the six best players in the league and in a league of their own). I don't see how the distinction between joining one of your strongest competitors and joining a good team is lost on people.
LeBron should have wanted to beat Wade's team, not join it. It rubbed me the wrong way that he didn't. You can disagree with that statement, fine by me. But at least address the claim on its own terms. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | tox wrote: |
That's also the reason a FO assembling a superteam doesn't get any backlash to the players involved --- the players lack agency and as a result you can't criticize them for being anti-competitive. |
Sure you can. You just choose not to. Magic left school early to play with Kareem. That was his choice. He lobbied to get stud help to LA. So did Bird. Prior to Rodman coming to Chicago they ran it past Jordan and Pippen. They didn't care because they wanted to win. Malone and Payton don't come to LA if Shaq and Kobe have an issue with it.
Acting as if star players have no say in who winds up on their teams or who coaches them is not accurate.
Lot's of stars played with great talent, some with much greater talent than LeBron has ever played with. They had no issue with being on the best teams and having a competitive advantage. If it's ok for Magic and Kareem to play together then I really don't care who plays together. Those two are both arguably the best ever. |
If you're going to respond to my post, why not actually respond to the argument I am making? None of those guys, barring Kareem, is close to what Wade was in 2010, and Magic is a totally different scenario (LeBron was a 2x MVP going to join another Top-5 player, Magic was a rookie). Of (bleep) course players want their teams to improve, thanks for informing me.
The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen.
You think Kobe would want to join LeBron in 2007 after his team failed him against in the playoffs, and LeBron let some (bleep) team to the Finals? Of course not, he wanted to beat LeBron's ass. And I bet the same thing was true of Bird and Magic, Hakeem and Jordan, etc.
You can construct every single strawman argument you please, but it's undeniable that there is no precedent for a superstar joining one of his primary rivals. And let's not forget how good Wade was in 2010, that Heat team was as much Wade's as LeBron's for the '10-'11 season (and was totally his team in the Finals). |
I'm sorry, how was Wade a rival? Or Bosh? Did they ever meet in the postseason?
Rodman going to Chicago, that's an example of rivals playing together. Magic trying to get Aguirre to LA, etc.
No precedent? I just listed one. Moses Malone to Philly after they lost in the Finals would be another. I guess West and Baylor weren't rivals of Wilt?
Wade was great in 2010. He wasn't a Magic or Kareem. If it's ok for those two to play together, or Shaq and Kobe, I really could care less who LeBron plays with. |
How is he a rival? Because he was one of the four, five best players in the league in 2010. And we are talking literally in contention for best player in the league. Were Kobe and LeBron rivals? Last I checked they didn't play in the playoffs, and I'd have still hated if they teamed up to play together. EDIT: Sorry, I should be clearer here: you are right. Rival is perhaps the wrong word to have used. This paragraph clarifies what I meant; rival is too imprecise.
As for Moses, I don't have an opinion on him because I didn't watch him play. That is extremely uncompetitive, yes. Wilt? I don't have an opinion on him because I'm not 60 years old but yes I would imagine I would feel similarly. Thanks for correcting me; indeed there was precedent. I don't think it changes my point, but I appreciate being fact checked.
I understand you don't care who LeBron plays with. I'm not asking you to change that. But some people have different values in you in terms of what being a competitor is about, and for them it's very valid to dislike LeBron for joining a guy who averaged 30/7.5/5 two years ago (small drop off the year after) and put up a Herculean effort with a completely (bleep) supporting cast to get them to 43 wins. I don't care if Wade isn't Magic or Kareem; in 2010 Wade was a legitimate MVP candidate, and he was absolutely one of LeBron's fiercest challengers for the claim of "best player in the league."
Last edited by tox on Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:47 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen. . |
Huh? Lebron and Wade -- who never once met in the playoffs -- were "primary competitors" but Rodman and Jordan -- who met in the eastern conference finals three times -- weren't?
Karl Malone and Shaq battled in the western conference finals but they weren't competitors?
It just astounds me how people twists themselves into pretzels bashing guys for doing something and then rationalizing that it's OK for their guys to do the same thing. |
Look at the post to Dreamshake. I should have been clearer. Kobe and LeBron were "rivals" in the sense that they were each other's competition for "best player in the league." There was a four-five year stretch when Wade was in that competition too. The argument is these are guys you should want to beat. It gets hazy when you end up on the same team by chance (Kobe/ Shaq? Durant/ Westbrook?) but that aside, this is the argument. Look also at the post to Aeneas, I would have criticized Kobe if he tried to angle his way to play with Dirk in '07 or LeBron or Duncan. He didn't, he just wanted Luol Deng on his team. Huge difference.
And I don't know how Rodman is "my guy" --- I haven't stated an opinion on how anti-competitive his joining Chicago is, have I? I am arguing it is not a relevant comparison to what LeBron did --- and guess what, it isn't. |
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Tagurt
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Joined: 03 Jun 2012
Posts: 739
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobe only wants to project the image of being competitive. He wants the best team possible while looking like the alpha dog. He wouldn't welcome players that would threaten his status as the lead player, he would be more than willing to have as many second tier stars as possible so the team is still dominant while Kobe shines as the best player. No one has complained about needing more help than Kobe, and he has more than his fair share of support. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Anyways I think I've clarified myself well enough so I'm probably going to quit while I'm ahead.  |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | tox wrote: | | The difference between that and what LeBron did is that LeBron explicitly chose to play with one of his primary competitors. Out-of-their-prime Gary Payton and Karl Malone were not Kobe and Shaq's rivals. Nor was Rodman to Jordan and Pippen. . |
Huh? Lebron and Wade -- who never once met in the playoffs -- were "primary competitors" but Rodman and Jordan -- who met in the eastern conference finals three times -- weren't?
Karl Malone and Shaq battled in the western conference finals but they weren't competitors?
It just astounds me how people twists themselves into pretzels bashing guys for doing something and then rationalizing that it's OK for their guys to do the same thing. |
Look at the post to Dreamshake. I should have been clearer. Kobe and LeBron were "rivals" in the sense that they were each other's competition for "best player in the league." There was a four-five year stretch when Wade was in that competition too. The argument is these are guys you should want to beat. It gets hazy when you end up on the same team by chance (Kobe/ Shaq? Durant/ Westbrook?) but that aside, this is the argument. Look also at the post to Aeneas, I would have criticized Kobe if he tried to angle his way to play with Dirk in '07 or LeBron or Duncan. He didn't, he just wanted Luol Deng on his team. Huge difference.
And I don't know how Rodman is "my guy" --- I haven't stated an opinion on how anti-competitive his joining Chicago is, have I? I am arguing it is not a relevant comparison to what LeBron did --- and guess what, it isn't. |
So tell me if any of these guys were rivals:
Hakeem/Barkley
Kareem/Oscar Robertson
Hakeem/Drexler
Hakeem/Pippen
Moses Malone/Dr. J
Wilt/West-Baylor
Kareem/Bob McAdoo
Garnett/Pierce
Earl Monroe/Walt Frazier
Duncan/Jason Kidd
Shaq/Wade
Shaq/Nash
Shaq/Lebron
Jordan/Rodman
Rodman/David Robinson
Mark Aguire/Isiah Thomas
Steve Nash/Kobe
Dwight Howard/Kobe
Jamaal Wilkes/Kareem |
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