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doughboy90650
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Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | doughboy90650 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | kobetimeeverytime wrote: | | the level of open disrespect shown towards Kobe after this finals is incredible, outside of the lakers fanbase people have Lebron>Kobe now... |
Kobe has still 5 vs 2,5 rings, and did not get referees help for any of them ( instead in 2008 there was the Leon Powe's game, not to mention 2004...). James, on the other end, even if he played great during these Finals, would have lost 4-1 without that BS disqualification of Draymond Green, who didn't even get called for flagrant during the game after review. The League ( Silver and whoever else has the power) decided to give the Cavs a big chance they shouldn't have had . The Credibility of many rankings that don't take into account the League/refs help has gone down into the toilet... |
Just as you bristle that the refs give preferential treatment to Lebron, fans elsewhere are complaining how the refs always helped Kobe or Durant or Wade or ... whoever ...
It is the god given right of fans of every player/team to think the refs are against their guy and for the other guy.
That's as American as apple pie and the stars and stripes. |
Basically. They didn't have Green for Game 5 but we're still a deep squad. LOST
They were the best road team this year and had Green in Game 6. LOST.
They were the best home team in the league and had Green. He played like a man. LOST
Guess the NBA rigged it so the highest scoring squad in the league don't score a single point in the last 4 1/2 minutes. Lol. |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
His three are legit because they were all accompanied by the FMVP trophy. |
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cinimod
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Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | cinimod wrote: | Not sure if anyone has said it, but I think the primary difference between the big 3 and any other pairings of talent is that the 3 players involved in MIA were all pre-prime to prime age. I think LBJ and Bosh were 25 or 26 years old. Wade might have been 28.
Other players had joined together before but mostly as a last ditch attempt to get a title late in their careers. With deteriorating athleticism and skills, these pairings are considered more acceptable. I don't recall that last ditch effort being made by young all-stars/superstars like LBJ, Wade and Bosh were at the time. It was perceived by many as "taking the easy way out" before even really trying the traditional route traveled by so many other stars in the past which was to beat your contemporaries, not join them.
I personally don't knock LBJ for winning 2 rings with his Super Team, but I do knock him for not winning more. |
Moses Malone was 27 and the MVP of the league when he decided to join the Sixers, a team that had just lost in the Finals and had Erving (who finished 3rd in MVP voting prior to Malone coming). |
Who would be the third player who joined the 6ers? I don't think one free agent in Moses meets the parameters. |
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Luke
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three?  |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
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Luke
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
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Tagurt
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Tagurt wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Steve Nash/Kobe
Dwight Howard/Kobe |
Add in Malone/Kobe. Malone's Jazz eliminated the Lakers when Kobe was throwing up airballs. This ultra competitive Kobe should hate Malone's guts right? Wrong, they were actually buds until the fallout.
It's funny to see how much Kobe welcomed the forming of super teams when it's the team that he is on. He never complained once about 2004 and 2013 when the stars got together. The complaints only started when things weren't going his way. |
When did Kobe ever complain about other teams gathering stars? |
Kobe didn't, but if he is as competitive as some people here say then he shouldn't be whining about not having enough help. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
I believe Robert Horry has 7 . . . just sayin'. 
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Tagurt
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
You forgot Derek Fisher. |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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The Eastern Conference champs just beat the Western Conference champs, coming back from a 3-1 deficit to do it. That same WestConf Champs that beat OKC & the Spurs to get there.
That same Eastern Conference team took the Western Conference champs to 6 games last year after having 2 of their best players go out with injuries.
That whole "weak as** East Conf" excuse just got blown out of the water. |
the stupid assumption behind this wasthat eastern playoffs were as strong as western playoffs. Or western playoffs teams were as weak as eastern playoffs teams. Or the brains have been washed by bspn.
When you played in acstronger conference, youvwould spend more energy to reach the finals. Injuries n tiredness could lead to disasters. Was there a 4~0 series in western conference?
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
I never said ring count was the only factor in ranking players, or even the most important factor (it sure isn't for me). I simply said people shouldn't pretend that rings won by players they dislike don't count. |
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4stargeneralbulldog
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| spflakers wrote: | I don't have an issue with LeBron going to Miami but Dream I think you might be underrating just how good Wade still was when LeBron did go to the Heat. In 2009 he'd led the league in scoring. In 2010 he was 5th, and was second in the league in PER, behind...LeBron. The Heat were eliminated in the playoffs in the first round by the Celtics but Wade put up 33 points per game on 56 percent shooting, against an awfully tough defense.
And for the first few years of the Heat days with LeBron, that combo was really, really tough. I'd have no issue putting the LeBron/Wade combo for a few years above Duncan and Robinson, Hakeem and Sampson, Moses and Erving, Bird and McHale, when you consider how dynamic both could be offensively and defensively. Eventually Wade started slowing but 2010 Wade was not 2014 Wade. But again, no issue with LBJ.
To echo AV on some of the Bird discussion earlier too, some of the earlier posts lambasting his place in the greatest talk was a bit much. As was pointed out, check out the roster of the 1979 Celtics and compare it to 1980. Pretty much the same except for Bird and they transformed into a title contender instantly. It's certainly more impressive than the change rookie Lebron brought to Cleveland (you could tell that eventually, yeah, the Cavs were going to be good but that rookie year didn't show it in the standings like Bird and the Celtics did). Someone said Bird would have never been able to do a chasedown block like LeBron did in the closing minutes. Sure, but how many players in NBA history would have? On the other hand, probably the most famous play of Bird's career was a defensive play. The steal against the Pistons.
In 1986, SI wrote a really good cover story proclaiming Bird as maybe the best player ever. In 1987 he was even BETTER but of course Magic won the MVP. Larry could have easily won a fourth straight: 28 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists. And then in 1988 he might have been even better yet! Again SI wrote a story about him possibly being the best ever. So after three straight MVPS...he has two years that might have been his best in the league. He misses all but six games in 1989. Then in 1990, at the age of 33, he plays 39 minutes per game, and averaged 23 points, 9.5 rebounds, 7.5 assists. In our minds, he struggled his final two years and played out the string. Except he averaged 19, 8 and 7 in 1991 and 20, 9 and 6 in 1992.
I of course put Magic above him historically because of Lakers bias, but even Simmons did in his book, based on the final years of their careers when Magic won two of his MVPs and Larry was missing a lot of action (only 60 games in 1991 and 45 in 92). But when you consider Bird's individual dominance through 1986 -- and then consider he was just as good if not better than that the next few years, I wouldn't have much of an issue with anyone arguing Larry over Magic (I'd throw a ball at their head and replay the Game 4 hook 100 times ala Clockwork Orange for them, but I'd accept it).
The guy was awesome and if people still have him in their Top 5, it's perfectly acceptable to me. |
You know your basketball history well. He also led his team from a 3-1 deficit against the '81 Sixers, which also won 62 games that season to an NBA title.
Overrated? Not at all. Bird was great. The only people that thinks Bird is overrated are the Spike Lee types and it has nothing to do with his playing ability, but other factors. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | | spflakers wrote: | I don't have an issue with LeBron going to Miami but Dream I think you might be underrating just how good Wade still was when LeBron did go to the Heat. In 2009 he'd led the league in scoring. In 2010 he was 5th, and was second in the league in PER, behind...LeBron. The Heat were eliminated in the playoffs in the first round by the Celtics but Wade put up 33 points per game on 56 percent shooting, against an awfully tough defense.
And for the first few years of the Heat days with LeBron, that combo was really, really tough. I'd have no issue putting the LeBron/Wade combo for a few years above Duncan and Robinson, Hakeem and Sampson, Moses and Erving, Bird and McHale, when you consider how dynamic both could be offensively and defensively. Eventually Wade started slowing but 2010 Wade was not 2014 Wade. But again, no issue with LBJ.
To echo AV on some of the Bird discussion earlier too, some of the earlier posts lambasting his place in the greatest talk was a bit much. As was pointed out, check out the roster of the 1979 Celtics and compare it to 1980. Pretty much the same except for Bird and they transformed into a title contender instantly. It's certainly more impressive than the change rookie Lebron brought to Cleveland (you could tell that eventually, yeah, the Cavs were going to be good but that rookie year didn't show it in the standings like Bird and the Celtics did). Someone said Bird would have never been able to do a chasedown block like LeBron did in the closing minutes. Sure, but how many players in NBA history would have? On the other hand, probably the most famous play of Bird's career was a defensive play. The steal against the Pistons.
In 1986, SI wrote a really good cover story proclaiming Bird as maybe the best player ever. In 1987 he was even BETTER but of course Magic won the MVP. Larry could have easily won a fourth straight: 28 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists. And then in 1988 he might have been even better yet! Again SI wrote a story about him possibly being the best ever. So after three straight MVPS...he has two years that might have been his best in the league. He misses all but six games in 1989. Then in 1990, at the age of 33, he plays 39 minutes per game, and averaged 23 points, 9.5 rebounds, 7.5 assists. In our minds, he struggled his final two years and played out the string. Except he averaged 19, 8 and 7 in 1991 and 20, 9 and 6 in 1992.
I of course put Magic above him historically because of Lakers bias, but even Simmons did in his book, based on the final years of their careers when Magic won two of his MVPs and Larry was missing a lot of action (only 60 games in 1991 and 45 in 92). But when you consider Bird's individual dominance through 1986 -- and then consider he was just as good if not better than that the next few years, I wouldn't have much of an issue with anyone arguing Larry over Magic (I'd throw a ball at their head and replay the Game 4 hook 100 times ala Clockwork Orange for them, but I'd accept it).
The guy was awesome and if people still have him in their Top 5, it's perfectly acceptable to me. |
You know your basketball history well. He also led his team from a 3-1 deficit against the '81 Sixers, which also won 62 games that season to an NBA title.
Overrated? Not at all. Bird was great. The only people that thinks Bird is overrated are the Spike Lee types and it has nothing to do with his playing ability, but other factors. |
And people under 35 who never saw his career transpire. Bird is the only Celtic who I don't have contempt for (well there is still some contempt, but it is secondary to the respect) because of his amazing impact and competitiveness. The way he and Magic fed off of each others intensity was amazing and really brought NBA basketball to the forefront.
I don't really find the claims of him being overrated even being worthy responding to. It's the same kind of ignorance that leads people to say Kobe is overrated because he "shots" too much or is a "ball hog".
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
I never said ring count was the only factor in ranking players, or even the most important factor (it sure isn't for me). I simply said people shouldn't pretend that rings won by players they dislike don't count. |
which is puzzling as hell when people say lebron is top 5. On what account is lebron greater than shaq or duncan or both? Trips to finals? Its either those other greats couldnt get to finals year in year out because of tough competition in their conference or others going to finals year in year out for obvious reason that the conference is weak.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| You know the answer, Moon. Rings are a factor in ranking players, but they aren't the only factor. Otherwise, Bill Russell trumps everyone. There is a lot of stuff on Lebron's resume. You know that. |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three? |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
I never said ring count was the only factor in ranking players, or even the most important factor (it sure isn't for me). I simply said people shouldn't pretend that rings won by players they dislike don't count. |
which is puzzling as hell when people say lebron is top 5. On what account is lebron greater than shaq or duncan or both? Trips to finals? Its either those other greats couldnt get to finals year in year out because of tough competition in their conference or others going to finals year in year out for obvious reason that the conference is weak. |
Lebron has a big edge in MVP awards and statistics. By next season he'll probably pass Shaq on the all-time scoring list with a lot off career left. He's going strong into his 14th season, which was a point that both Shaq and Duncan started to fade.
Personally, I put Lebron, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe on the same basic tier, so I wouldn't quibble much with any way that someone ordered the four of them. |
well, it is well known that tbe western teams have to face a lot more 50 plus wins more than any Lebron teams have faced. For example, Kobe and Shaq have faced the hell that was west in they heyday and post shaq in the west. So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. So, we will keep pretending those are non factors. Shaq n Kobe a combined 2 freaking mvps a testimony of west being the toughest ever.
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Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | You know the answer, Moon. Rings are a factor in ranking players, but they aren't the only factor. Otherwise, Bill Russell trumps everyone. There is a lot of stuff on Lebron's resume. You know that. |
oh yeah I know. If the same player can reach the finals consecutively, you can guess pretty much that 1. The said player is freakingly great 2. The conference is weak 3 a combo of 1 n 2.
On the other hand if the other conference have had different team in the finals, that conference can be assumed 1. To have evenly ood teams that can be a candidate for finals 2. That each have to fight harder to get to playoffs n then the finals.
Until nba change its playoffs system, Lebron will rule the east year in year out because he can choose the supporting casts that can carry him to the finals.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | | ]So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. |
I believe Lebron's numbers have been pretty much the same against western teams as they've been against eastern teams. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | | well, it is well known that tbe western teams have to face a lot more 50 plus wins more than any Lebron teams have faced. For example, Kobe and Shaq have faced the hell that was west in they heyday and post shaq in the west. So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. So, we will keep pretending those are non factors. Shaq n Kobe a combined 2 freaking mvps a testimony of west being the toughest ever. |
Using the same logic, didn't he just put up numbers that we have never seen in the Finals against a 73 win team? If beating teams without great records is a factor then isn't beating the team with the most wins EVER. All he did was be the first to lead both teams in everything. |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | well, it is well known that tbe western teams have to face a lot more 50 plus wins more than any Lebron teams have faced. For example, Kobe and Shaq have faced the hell that was west in they heyday and post shaq in the west. So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. So, we will keep pretending those are non factors. Shaq n Kobe a combined 2 freaking mvps a testimony of west being the toughest ever. |
Using the same logic, didn't he just put up numbers that we have never seen in the Finals against a 73 win team? If beating teams without great records is a factor then isn't beating the team with the most wins EVER. All he did was be the first to lead both teams in everything. |
there is no denying lebron n co just beat the team with the best record IN THE FINALS. I was referring to the different struggles that Cavs n GWS went thru in the process.
Next season, imagine OKC and Cavs switch conferences. I would bet OKC would reach NBA finals. But whi would say boldly Cavs would be in the finals again?
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | ]So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. |
I believe Lebron's numbers have been pretty much the same against western teams as they've been against eastern teams. |
Statistically, over the last 5 years, many of the top 10 teams in PPG Allowed are in the East. Indy, Chicago (under Thibs), Miami, Cleveland, Washington, Charlotte and ATL.
Meanwhile, this past season, 8 or the bottom 10 teams that allowed the most points per game, were in the Western Conference. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | well, it is well known that tbe western teams have to face a lot more 50 plus wins more than any Lebron teams have faced. For example, Kobe and Shaq have faced the hell that was west in they heyday and post shaq in the west. So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. So, we will keep pretending those are non factors. Shaq n Kobe a combined 2 freaking mvps a testimony of west being the toughest ever. |
Using the same logic, didn't he just put up numbers that we have never seen in the Finals against a 73 win team? If beating teams without great records is a factor then isn't beating the team with the most wins EVER. All he did was be the first to lead both teams in everything. |
there is no denying lebron n co just beat the team with the best record IN THE FINALS. I was referring to the different struggles that Cavs n GWS went thru in the process.
Next season, imagine OKC and Cavs switch conferences. I would bet OKC would reach NBA finals. But whi would say boldly Cavs would be in the finals again? |
Winning the Finals is part of the process. If you are going to knock a players numbers or success based on him not beating teams with 50 wins then the same logic requires you to elevate him for beating a 73 win team, when he posts numbers we have never seen before.
That "50 win" narrative also looks very different if you change it to 60 win teams or 70 win teams (LeBron is the only one to knock one of those off, again, with numbers we have never seen before).
And do you feel the same way about Magic and his success in the 80's? Should we down his numbers or team success? No way is he making 9 Finals playing in the East every year. |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | well, it is well known that tbe western teams have to face a lot more 50 plus wins more than any Lebron teams have faced. For example, Kobe and Shaq have faced the hell that was west in they heyday and post shaq in the west. So, whatever Lebron has been facing in the east should be a factor in his beautiful numbers. So, we will keep pretending those are non factors. Shaq n Kobe a combined 2 freaking mvps a testimony of west being the toughest ever. |
Using the same logic, didn't he just put up numbers that we have never seen in the Finals against a 73 win team? If beating teams without great records is a factor then isn't beating the team with the most wins EVER. All he did was be the first to lead both teams in everything. |
there is no denying lebron n co just beat the team with the best record IN THE FINALS. I was referring to the different struggles that Cavs n GWS went thru in the process.
Next season, imagine OKC and Cavs switch conferences. I would bet OKC would reach NBA finals. But whi would say boldly Cavs would be in the finals again? |
Winning the Finals is part of the process. If you are going to knock a players numbers or success based on him not beating teams with 50 wins then the same logic requires you to elevate him for beating a 73 win team, when he posts numbers we have never seen before.
That "50 win" narrative also looks very different if you change it to 60 win teams or 70 win teams (LeBron is the only one to knock one of those off, again, with numbers we have never seen before).
And do you feel the same way about Magic and his success in the 80's? Should we down his numbers or team success? No way is he making 9 Finals playing in the East every year. |
Did I deny bron n co beat the team with the best record? In Kobe n Shaq days, Lakers did not possess the best records most ofvthe time yet thwy were able to get things done too. There was no way any team could make 70 plus wins during those days, a testament of harder and tougher competition.
You are half right about knocking 60 plus win team. Who eliminated the 60+ win team in the west first? OKC. They almost beat 2 60plus teams in Spurs n GWS in the west.
Lebron did beat a wornout GWS after OKC forced them to work like hell.
The fact that OKC did compete with 2 teams that had 73 win and near 70 wins is a testament that there were 3 teams alone in the West that could prevent Cavs from getting to the ships. Too bad they had to kill each other while Bron did a piece of cake in the east. The playoffs system as this season proved was a joke. Many stronger teams in the west had to kill one another while one strong team in the east basically had training sessions for sure finals.
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Last edited by moonriver24 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: |
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moonriver24, do you feel the same way about Magic in the 80's?
I'm not half right about knocking off 60 win teams. If you increase the number from 50 wins to 60 wins then LeBron suddenly looks great compared to his peers on the competition angle. He's at the top when you go from 60 to 70, unless you start trying to discount why GS won 73 games.
Yes, you give LeBron credit for beating GS, but are you giving him MORE credit? If you are discounting his numbers/success for beating fewer 50 win teams then shouldn't you elevate his numbers/success for beating tougher teams (if win totals are the criteria)? Let's stay consistent.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | moonriver24, do you feel the same way about Magic in the 80's?
I'm not half right about knocking off 60 win teams. If you increase the number from 50 wins to 60 wins then LeBron suddenly looks great compared to his peers on the competition angle. He's at the top when you go from 60 to 70, unless you start trying to discount why GS won 73 games.
Yes, you give LeBron credit for beating GS, but are you giving him MORE credit? If you are discounting his numbers/success for beating fewer 50 win teams then shouldn't you elevate his numbers/success for beating tougher teams (if win totals are the criteria)? Let's stay consistent. |
Read my edited part. I did not follow 80s bball but judging from the talents on thst Lakers, I dont see any team would stop them if thecteam were switched to western conference.
Now suppose OKC or Spurs are switched to East next season. Thatwould make it more balanced. But of course, which team in the east would love to switch to west even when Spurs or OKCthen belong to east?
You see, other than Celtics, whatever team switched to wester conference wouldnt make any difference to 80s loaded lakers. You cant say that with the current teams.
East is still a joke. Raptors will be King of East if Cavs move to Wrstern conf. But would Cavs be king of West? If you are honest, you will say maybe.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: |
Read my edited part. I did not follow 80s bball but judging from the talents on thst Lakers, I dont see any team would stop them if thecteam were switched to western conference. |
They lost in the Finals to Eastern teams 4 times. Why could those teams not have beaten them prior to the Finals if they were in the same conference?
And no comment on LeBron against 60 and 70 win teams? Shouldn't his success elevate him higher if you are gonna knock him for the opposite? |
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