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ribeye
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: |
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A great basketball player, an entertaining personality, an interesting person, but a good analyst?
Barkley doesn't include LeBron in his top five. OK, fine. But the Big O at #2? Maybe, since Barkley did not fare well in the post season (though statistically, he fared very well), maybe he doesn't value post season play as much as others, such as myself, do.
Charles Barkley Insists LeBron James Isn’t A Top-5 Player
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | A great basketball player, an entertaining personality, an interesting person, but a good analyst?
Barkley doesn't include LeBron in his top five. OK, fine. But the Big O at #2? Maybe, since Barkley did not fare well in the post season (though statistically, he fared very well), maybe he doesn't value post season play as much as others, such as myself, do.
Charles Barkley Insists LeBron James Isn’t A Top-5 Player |
As I've said many times, people care about lists from guys like Barkley only if they agree with the list. If you agree with it, then it is "Hall of Famer Charles Barkley's list." If you don't agree with it, you ignore it or make fun of Barkley.
But yeah, putting Oscar Robertson in the top five is laughable. There are a few people who fixate on Oscar Robertson averaging a triple double for a season, not realizing that (1) hardly anyone noticed at the time, (2) this was because it really wasn't as impressive as it sounds today because the game pace of that era was vastly higher, and (3) Oscar didn't even finish in the top 2 in the MVP voting that year. |
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Krispy Kreme
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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im very surprised that Barkley is still taking kobe over lebron.
i would too, but he's always been a kobe hater.
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Luke
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
This whole "His ring doesn't really count" or it's only "0.5 rings" is an eye-glazer.
I don't care if you're talking about Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, whoever -- a ring is a ring is a ring, and you can't make a ring go away because you dislike the guy that won it. |
Are you telling me that the five rings of Kobe and Magic ( and Duncan) count for five and the three rings of Lebron count for three?  |
Math is indeed a wonderful thing. |
So, in the modern NBA, with at least 20 teams participating, the top five players ( so far) are MJ and Kareem ( six championships), Kobe, Magic and Duncan (five) ? |
I believe Robert Horry has 7 . . . just sayin'.  |
I thought it was clear I wasn't talking about role players
If you had said Pippen, you might have had a point... |
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: |
Read my edited part. I did not follow 80s bball but judging from the talents on thst Lakers, I dont see any team would stop them if thecteam were switched to western conference. |
They lost in the Finals to Eastern teams 4 times. Why could those teams not have beaten them prior to the Finals if they were in the same conference?
And no comment on LeBron against 60 and 70 win teams? Shouldn't his success elevate him higher if you are gonna knock him for the opposite? |
So, you are saying eastern teams were variably greater than Lakers in 80s? I can live with that.
OKC knocked out Spurs who had almost 70 wins.
They almost knocked out another 70 plus win team.
Were there any other teams more deserving than OKC, Spurs and GWS as a finals candidate? Toronto? Heat? Lol.
But those three had to eliminate each other so Lebron would only face one of them instead of two of them.
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unleasHell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well since Pippen has more Rings than LeBron, I would rank him higher, as of now.
Lebron with (3) rings and (6) trips to the finals does not impress me when compared to the legends of the game, right now I think he deserves to be in the 10-20 range, nothing higher!
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Tagurt
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| People like to talk about how easy Lebron had it going to the Finals, but no one likes to acknowledge that the teams the 09 and 10 Lakers beat weren't all that impressive. You had the Deron/Boozer Jazz which is always a tier below the contenders, the Yao/T-Mac less Rockets, the Melo Nuggets that struggled to get out of the first round, an OKC team with no playoff experience and the Suns with Nash and Amare way past their prime. At the most, you can say they're better teams than the likes of the Pacers, Raptors, and the Hawks, but none of them were a serious challenge to dethrone the Lakers in the West. |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | | spflakers wrote: |
The guy was awesome and if people still have him in their Top 5, it's perfectly acceptable to me. |
You know your basketball history well. He also led his team from a 3-1 deficit against the '81 Sixers, which also won 62 games that season to an NBA title.
Overrated? Not at all. Bird was great. The only people that thinks Bird is overrated are the Spike Lee types and it has nothing to do with his playing ability, but other factors. |
Hear, hear. You should read his recent article for VICE Sports re: the old NBA Entertainment VHS series. Rumor has it that I was quoted in it(!) SPF knows all the good sources.
http://tinyurl.com/j9ksa58
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Tagurt wrote: | | People like to talk about how easy Lebron had it going to the Finals, but no one likes to acknowledge that the teams the 09 and 10 Lakers beat weren't all that impressive. You had the Deron/Boozer Jazz which is always a tier below the contenders, the Yao/T-Mac less Rockets, the Melo Nuggets that struggled to get out of the first round, an OKC team with no playoff experience and the Suns with Nash and Amare way past their prime. At the most, you can say they're better teams than the likes of the Pacers, Raptors, and the Hawks, but none of them were a serious challenge to dethrone the Lakers in the West. |
In the long run, few people care about the level of competition a player faces in the playoffs. If you're lucky enough to face weaker teams with lots of injuries, you don't get dinged.
All a player can do is play the teams on the court. If you win, you win.
Personally, I think it would be interesting if someone developed a sound, systematic way to evaluate level of competition and incorporate that into rankings. I've never seen attempt that in a meaningful way, and it might be too difficult to do. And in any case, I think that would end up being an academic exercise that would matter to few people anyway. |
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Luke
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Tagurt wrote: | | People like to talk about how easy Lebron had it going to the Finals, but no one likes to acknowledge that the teams the 09 and 10 Lakers beat weren't all that impressive. You had the Deron/Boozer Jazz which is always a tier below the contenders, the Yao/T-Mac less Rockets, the Melo Nuggets that struggled to get out of the first round, an OKC team with no playoff experience and the Suns with Nash and Amare way past their prime. At the most, you can say they're better teams than the likes of the Pacers, Raptors, and the Hawks, but none of them were a serious challenge to dethrone the Lakers in the West. |
You mighy have a short memory Do you remember how difficult it was to beat those teams for the Lakers ? They were far and away better than the trash James is facing in the East. Hell, the Cavs could have won the East with James resting ... |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | im very surprised that Barkley is still taking kobe over lebron.
i would too, but he's always been a kobe hater. |
Barkley was one of the few in the media who were openly supportive of Kobe in the whole Eagle thing.
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He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
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Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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4stargeneralbulldog
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | 4stargeneralbulldog wrote: | | spflakers wrote: |
The guy was awesome and if people still have him in their Top 5, it's perfectly acceptable to me. |
You know your basketball history well. He also led his team from a 3-1 deficit against the '81 Sixers, which also won 62 games that season to an NBA title.
Overrated? Not at all. Bird was great. The only people that thinks Bird is overrated are the Spike Lee types and it has nothing to do with his playing ability, but other factors. |
Hear, hear. You should read his recent article for VICE Sports re: the old NBA Entertainment VHS series. Rumor has it that I was quoted in it(!) SPF knows all the good sources.
http://tinyurl.com/j9ksa58 |
Wow, that's pretty sweet that he writes for a big online publication like Vice Sports. No wonder his knowledge of NBA history is impeccable. |
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Tagurt
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | You mighy have a short memory Do you remember how difficult it was to beat those teams for the Lakers ? They were far and away better than the trash James is facing in the East. Hell, the Cavs could have won the East with James resting ... |
Difficult is relative, they can be difficult to beat and still be a mediocre team if the Lakers decide to play down to their level. None of the West teams the Lakers beat in 09 and 10 has a shot at the title. Not the Jazz, not the Nuggets, not the Thunder, not the Rockets or the Suns. The Lakers was the only title contender in the West those two years while the Cavs, Magic, and Celtics have to beat each other up to make the Finals. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Tagurt wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | You mighy have a short memory Do you remember how difficult it was to beat those teams for the Lakers ? They were far and away better than the trash James is facing in the East. Hell, the Cavs could have won the East with James resting ... |
Difficult is relative, they can be difficult to beat and still be a mediocre team if the Lakers decide to play down to their level. None of the West teams the Lakers beat in 09 and 10 has a shot at the title. Not the Jazz, not the Nuggets, not the Thunder, not the Rockets or the Suns. The Lakers was the only title contender in the West those two years while the Cavs, Magic, and Celtics have to beat each other up to make the Finals. |
One way to evaluate teams is to see were they ranked on offense and defense in the year in question. It's not perfect, but then nothing is, and it avoids using the non-starter eye of the beholder of what individual posters think of each team
Here's who the Cavs faced the last two years and where those teams ranked in office and defense rating:
Warriors -- 1-5
Raptors - 5-11
Hawks - 22-2
Pistons - 13-12
Warriors - 2-1
Hawks - 6-6
Bulls - 11-11
Celtics - 3-18
Here's who the Lakers face their two ring years
Celtics - 11-4
Sun - 1-23
Jazz - 8-10
Thunder - 12-9
Orlando 11-1
Denver 7-8
Houston 4-4
Jazz 8-10
By this framework, the Cavs had the harder matchup in the later rounds of the playoffs (finals, conference finals) while the Lakers had a higher matchup in rounds 1 and 2. |
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Dave20
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: |
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My top 10.
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Lebron
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Shaq |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
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Oliver Reed
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
There isn't. He was the most valuable player of any series I have ever seen. In any sport. We will never see a player lead a team in all 5 categories like that again.
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Luke
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
The 73-9 team had his best healthy player cancelled by game five when the refs didn't give him a flagrant foul after review. Silver decided that the best team shouldn't have won in five games , which was the most likely outcome had Draymond played.
As usual James needs all the help he can have ( by referees and when it's not enough by Silver in person) in order to translate his ability to produce stats in winning... |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
It was a Shaq-like performance. No one has dominated a Finals series like that since Shaq.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
The 73-9 team had his best healthy player cancelled by game five when the refs didn't give him a flagrant foul after review. Silver decided that the best team shouldn't have won in five games , which was the most likely outcome had Draymond played.
As usual James needs all the help he can have ( by referees and when it's not enough by Silver in person) in order to translate his ability to produce stats in winning... |
If that were the case (most likely outcome) then GS would have won G6 or G7. But they didn't. Maybe Green will learn to stop taking nut shots. |
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
The 73-9 team had his best healthy player cancelled by game five when the refs didn't give him a flagrant foul after review. Silver decided that the best team shouldn't have won in five games , which was the most likely outcome had Draymond played.
As usual James needs all the help he can have ( by referees and when it's not enough by Silver in person) in order to translate his ability to produce stats in winning... |
If that were the case (most likely outcome) then GS would have won G6 or G7. But they didn't. Maybe Green will learn to stop taking nut shots. |
If the NBA really cared they would've suspended him for the Thunder series but they didn't. They didn't want the Thunder in the Finals.
They were saving it for the Finals.
Steven Adams is shyt compared to LeBron James as far as the NBA is concerned. LeBron was also the one who started it(Green shouldn't have reacted)
If the Raptors were in the Finals and Green did this nothing would've happened to him.
That being said they had 3 chances to close out the Cavs and still failed.
I hope for a LeBron free/Warriors free Finals next year.
As for Chuck he just likes being a contrarian. Even though he was actually right about a prediction  |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | Not only did LeBron lead both teams in everything in the Finals while overcoming a 3-1 deficit against a 73 win team without homecourt (all firsts), he led his team in points, boards, dimes, blocks and steals for the entire title playoff run (26, 10, 8, 2.3, 1.3 on 53%, 34% and 66% shooting). He was also the primary defender.
I can't think of a more impactful playoff run by a wing player. Ever. If one exists, enlighten me. |
The 73-9 team had his best healthy player cancelled by game five when the refs didn't give him a flagrant foul after review. Silver decided that the best team shouldn't have won in five games , which was the most likely outcome had Draymond played.
As usual James needs all the help he can have ( by referees and when it's not enough by Silver in person) in order to translate his ability to produce stats in winning... |
If that were the case (most likely outcome) then GS would have won G6 or G7. But they didn't. Maybe Green will learn to stop taking nut shots. |
If the NBA really cared they would've suspended him for the Thunder series but they didn't. They didn't want the Thunder in the Finals.
They were saving it for the Finals.
Steven Adams is (bleep) compared to LeBron James as far as the NBA is concerned. LeBron was also the one who started it(Green shouldn't have reacted)
If the Raptors were in the Finals and Green did this nothing would've happened to him.
That being said they had 3 chances to close out the Cavs and still failed.
I hope for a LeBron free/Warriors free Finals next year.
As for Chuck he just likes being a contrarian. Even though he was actually right about a prediction |
The other problem with Dreamshake's theory the game 5 suspension shouldn't have mattered since Green was available for games 6 and 7 blatantly ignores two major points.
One being momentum. It's huge in a series like that and the Warriors were headed home with a 3-1 lead and the Cavs reeling. Losing Green was a blow to all of that.
Secondly, the Warriors lost Bogut in Game 5, which obviously wouldn't have mattered as much if Green had been available and wouldn't be an issue at all if GSW had closed out the series in Game 5. But that's not what happened. The Warriors got Green back for 6 and 7, but were now missing their Center for those critical games.
Here's the whole deal, it's clear that the league elected NOT to suspend Green during the OKC series despite the fact that just about everyone knew there was cause. We can speculate as to WHY they made the decision NOT to suspend him at that point, but the fact remains it was a questionable decision.
Then, in the Cavs series, despite the fact that there was no call made in that Game 4 against Green (who was clearly the victim of "Non-basketball activity" by James) EVEN AFTER it was reviewed in the course of the game, the league decides that there was a Flagrant involved - even though none of the officials though there was EVEN AFTER the video review. As a result, Green was suspended for a critical Game 5 - which benefitted the Cavs tremendously. Again, we can speculate as to why they did, but that's what happened and it was in contrast to the way they handled the OKC series.
It's pretty clear to anyone who is going to look at the facts involved that there was very suspect handling of Green that contradicted itself in two different series, both times working to the favor of the team that needed some good fortune to help their playoff lives.
People can choose to blow that off if they wish, but it is ignoring something that can't be denied.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Dreamshake
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Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't want to kill your teams momentum then don't take a shot at a players nuts when you are on the brink of being suspended.
Green committed an infraction to get himself suspended. He accumulated the previous points prior to that as well. His bad. That's on him, not the NBA. Green played in G6 and G7. They lost.
LeBron had arguably the greatest Finals series ever. They won. |
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Losing Bogut was worse than Losing Green |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
It's pretty clear to anyone who is going to look at the facts involved that there was very suspect handling of Green that contradicted itself in two different series, both times working to the favor of the team that needed some good fortune to help their playoff lives.
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The facts are that they gave Green a flagrant for the Adams nut shot in the OKC series and a flagrant for the attempted LeBron nut shot in the Finals. The myth of "different reffing" needs to die. They let the first one go. After that he got flagrants in both instances. What got his suspended was the accumulation of points. If he hadn't bodyslammed Beasley in round 1 then he wouldn't have missed G5 either.
If we are talking facts. |
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