Lebron Block on Iggi... goaltending?
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:29 pm    Post subject:



Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject:

By NBA rules, that was a clean block.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject:

c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.

It seems clear that the ball was contacted by his right hand before his left hand made contact with the rim (the latter was incidental contact that didn't appear to have any effect on the path of the ball, of course), after which the ball's trajectory was changed radically following the contact by the right hand. This sequence eliminated any probability that the ball retained a chance to score at that point.

I'm not sure why we continue to litigate this issue ... it was one of those iconic plays that will probably stand the test of time. It's time to give up the ghost on this one ...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.


Lebron is touching the rim, but that's not against the rules in this situation, According to NBA rules, its illegal to "Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce" or "Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base." Neither of those situations apply here.

2. I can't tell if Lebron is touching the ball while the ball is touching the rim from this angle. I can see why you make that conclusion, but I would need to see this from a side angle to be convinced. Either way, it's very, very close and I wouldn't have overturned the call based on this video alone
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.


Lebron is touching the rim, but that's not against the rules in this situation, According to NBA rules, its illegal to "Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce" or "Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base." Neither of those situations apply here.

2. I can't tell if Lebron is touching the ball while the ball is touching the rim from this angle. I can see why you make that conclusion, but I would need to see this from a side angle to be convinced. Either way, it's very, very close and I wouldn't have overturned the call based on this video alone


I'm not advocating an overrule and already said they should have never called in goal tending since it happened so quickly. But, it's not the cleanest block in the history in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.


Lebron is touching the rim, but that's not against the rules in this situation, According to NBA rules, its illegal to "Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce" or "Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base." Neither of those situations apply here.

2. I can't tell if Lebron is touching the ball while the ball is touching the rim from this angle. I can see why you make that conclusion, but I would need to see this from a side angle to be convinced. Either way, it's very, very close and I wouldn't have overturned the call based on this video alone


I'm not advocating an overrule and already said they should have never called in goal tending since it happened so quickly. But, it's not the cleanest block in the history in the NBA.


Well, like I said, his touching the rim is not illegal so toss that out. The only question is whether his hand, the ball and the backboard are touching at the same time, and I can't tell that from this angle. It's a super close.

So maybe it's not "clean" from that standpoint, but who cares? It's an amazing block, especially given when it occurred, so it will rightly go to go down as one of the most important and iconic blocks in NBA history. They'll be re-playing this one for a long, long, long time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:18 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.

From the right hand side of the basket in slow motion

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-finals-every-thrilling-second-of-lebron-james-iconic-game-7-block/

go down to the video titled "STEP 5: EXTERMINATE"

In order of occurrence:
1. Lebron clearly 1st touches the ball when it's about 2" away from the backboard. (anything, ANYTHING at all, that happens after this point is completely irrelevant because the BLOCK has already occurred)

2. Lebron swats the ball into the backboard, which is completely LEGAL because the block originated 2" before the ball reached the backboard.

3. Lebron's off hand makes contact with the rim - well after he's already blocked the shot. That contact with the rim is also completely irrelevant, because the ball has already been blocked. Inadvertent contact with the rim is not a foul unless it affects the shot going through the rim - since the shot was already blocked, it's completely irrelevant.

4. Video clearly shows that there was no foul by Lebron on Iggy on that shot (you didn't claim this, but some other knucklehead did)

That slow motion video proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that not only was that a completely clean block, there wasn't even the tiniest remote chance that it was a goaltend or a foul. That may have been one of the cleanest blocks you'll ever see in the NBA.
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Last edited by P.K. on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
So it IS called a basketball "ring"! Ted Cruz was accurate.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject:

For me, the unsung MVP of the sequence is J.R. Smith creating enough of an obstruction at the point of Iguodala's attack to allow LeBron's arrival on scene to create iconic history ... J.R. Smith, so often a knucklehead for his teams over the years, played a critical role in largely vanquishing a number of false narratives last week, incl. ...

1. J.R. Smith cannot play defense to save his life;
2. J.R. Smith is an irredeemable knucklehead in key situations;
3. David Blatt was wronged and done dirty by Cleveland / LeBron because he was the brilliant leader who offered the best + only chance the Cavaliers had to win a title;
4. No team can recover when down 3 - 1 in an NBA Final series;
5. LeBron can't GM to save his life (even though the most credible source of this canard was a mouthbreathing fugazi co-owner of the Miami Heat with a tribal ax to grind, apparently);
6. LeBron's NBA Finals record will be 2 of 7, so he can't be an all time great (even though this view conflates team success with individual effort);
7. 19 year old LeBronze couldn't lead Team USA to the gold medal in 2004 (even though he was barely on the floor in the pivotal games);
8. 22 year old LeBron was swept by the Spurs in 2007, which means he's an unclutch fraud (even though the average margin of loss was six points, and his supporting cast was probably the worst to ever make it to a conference semifinals or beyond);
9. The East is garbage and the Cavaliers would barely qualify for the playoffs in the West, which means LeBron's six straight NBA Finals appearances are actually an irrelevant joke; and finally ...
10. Cleveland is cursed ...

And so many more, really ... like, by way of example, the "LeBron is a buster who is all about collecting empty stats" flyer. I never thought J.R. Smith would be at the center of the singular play that dropped all of those rounding error narratives on their collective ass, but he proved me wrong. Freehold, New Jersey is a wasteland, but that wasteland gave us the Boss and J.R. Smith. Not too bad, I guess ...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
For me, the unsung MVP of the sequence is J.R. Smith creating enough of an obstruction at the point of Iguodala's attack to allow LeBron's arrival on scene to create iconic history ... J.R. Smith, so often a knucklehead for his teams over the years, played a critical role in largely vanquishing a number of false narratives last week, incl. ...

1. J.R. Smith cannot play defense to save his life;
2. J.R. Smith is an irredeemable knucklehead in key situations;
3. David Blatt was wronged and done dirty by Cleveland / LeBron because he was the brilliant leader who offered the best + only chance the Cavaliers had to win a title;
4. No team can recover when down 3 - 1 in an NBA Final series;
5. LeBron can't GM to save his life (even though the most credible source of this canard was a mouthbreathing fugazi co-owner of the Miami Heat with a tribal ax to grind, apparently);
6. LeBron's NBA Finals record will be 2 of 7, so he can't be an all time great (even though this view conflates team success with individual effort);
7. 19 year old LeBronze couldn't lead Team USA to the gold medal in 2004 (even though he was barely on the floor in the pivotal games);
8. 22 year old LeBron was swept by the Spurs in 2007, which means he's an unclutch fraud (even though the average margin of loss was six points, and his supporting cast was probably the worst to ever make it to a conference semifinals or beyond);
9. The East is garbage and the Cavaliers would barely qualify for the playoffs in the West, which means LeBron's six straight NBA Finals appearances are actually an irrelevant joke; and finally ...
10. Cleveland is cursed ...

And so many more, really ... like, by way of example, the "LeBron is a buster who is all about collecting empty stats" flyer. I never thought J.R. Smith would be at the center of the singular play that dropped all of those rounding error narratives on their collective ass, but he proved me wrong. Freehold, New Jersey is a wasteland, but that wasteland gave us the Boss and J.R. Smith. Not too bad, I guess ...












Please, don't exaggerate to brag for that block because Iguodala was playing with a bad back. When he was healthy, he outplayed James , made him shoot like crap and got Finals MVP.

Let's talk about your points.

1) Smith like last year was irrilevant, until Silver decided to prolong the series.
2) see above

3)David Blatt was indeed done dirty by Cleveland, and in fact he was the reason why last year Cleveland was up 2-1 without Irving and Love. He had a lot less than Lue this year and made Dellavedova play like the man of destiny. He didn't have the luxury to play vs a gassed GS, nor he had help by Silver himself. He did more with less.


4) If Silver doesn't help them, no team can recover from 3-1 in an NBA Final Series. Still valid.


5) James as GM brought Love for Wiggins. Wiggins will be a very good player and Love didn't help much the team : I should say he played like crap...

6)Lebron NBA Finals record would have been 2of 7 if Silver didn't help him ( as if Crab dribbles, off hand helps, refs here and there weren't enough...) Now it's 3of 7 , tainted, not adding much to him.

7) 19 years old LeBronze isn't at fault for 2004 Bronze , but he is at 21 for 2006 World championship Bronze , hence the name Lebronze , which won't change anytime soon ( I would like to let you know that Magic and Kobe at 21 were already NBA champions)


8) Stop with the narrative that James had the worst supporting cast ever to make a CSF or beyond... Just to make a simple example : have you seen this year the Raptors or Miami playing each other ??????? Have you seen the supporting casts???? Also, before you say that the Spurs were a legendary team, do you know that a year later ( not 10 years later) they lost 4-1 vs a Kobe's lead team with Gasol just arrived and so with little possibility to develop chemistry?

9)The East is still garbage where the Cavs could go to the Finals without even playing James. In the West Cavs would go to the Finals once in six years; so James may be smart to chose East, but that's not irrilevant to his legacy...

10 Who cares of Cleveland. It's all politics . They won the lottery 3 times. This already should say something about how the NBA is managed. So , I'm not surprised that they had to rob the Warriors of their deserved championship.


11) James is still the king of the stat padders, the stat machine of garbage time : One robbed win won't change the fact that his stats are grossly inflated by playing in a weak conference , getting a lot of garbage time stats and, above all getting a lot of stats thanks to relentless help by the referees since day one he entered in the league.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Iconic play by an iconic player. Arguably the best two way player ever. You will see that block replayed over and over again.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject:

They had a good photo of the block in SI from behind and the right and the looks on some of the faces of the Warrior fans behind the basket were classic.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject:

You guys realize the refs called an absolutely HORRIBLE 3pt shot free throw to let the Warriors stay in game 7, right? There were a ton of terrible calls, both ways, throughout the series.

Draymonds leg flailing out on Steven Adams prompted a warning from the NBA. But he clearly does that on a TON of plays- there was a like a fricking 2 minute video of him flailing exremities on drives and rebounds. It's nothing malicious. That's why he wasn't suspended.Not to mention Bron can't get to the line unless he gets (bleep) hammered. I mean his free throw rate is similar to prime Kobe who didn't drive nearly as much.

Through 6 games, Bron and Kyrie: 149 drives, 62 free throw attempts/Steph and Klay: 69 drives, 55 free throw attempts

Cavs were getting all the calls though
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:00 pm    Post subject:

And lol at Iggy outplaying LeBron last year. That notion is just... asinine. The Warriors were like 10 deep and the Cavs 6th man was Iman Shumpert lol. Iggy got the award because he guarded the best player on the planet and won the series. LeBron was carrying a massive load and shot poorly throughout the series, it wasn't anything supernatural by Iggy.

Iggy has never and will never outplay LeBron. Let alone in a 6 game series. Bron's impact is insane. He was a top 10 player in the league as an 18 y/o
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.

From the right hand side of the basket in slow motion

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-finals-every-thrilling-second-of-lebron-james-iconic-game-7-block/

go down to the video titled "STEP 5: EXTERMINATE"

In order of occurrence:
1. Lebron clearly 1st touches the ball when it's about 2" away from the backboard. (anything, ANYTHING at all, that happens after this point is completely irrelevant because the BLOCK has already occurred)

2. Lebron swats the ball into the backboard, which is completely LEGAL because the block originated 2" before the ball reached the backboard.

3. Lebron's off hand makes contact with the rim - well after he's already blocked the shot. That contact with the rim is also completely irrelevant, because the ball has already been blocked. Inadvertent contact with the rim is not a foul unless it affects the shot going through the rim - since the shot was already blocked, it's completely irrelevant.

4. Video clearly shows that there was no foul by Lebron on Iggy on that shot (you didn't claim this, but some other knucklehead did)

That slow motion video proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that not only was that a completely clean block, there wasn't even the tiniest remote chance that it was a goaltend or a foul. That may have been one of the cleanest blocks you'll ever see in the NBA.


According to Rule 11, § I e. of the Official Rules for NBA - 2015-2016 season, a player shall not trap the ball against the backboard after the ball has been released. To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously: contact between the ball, the hand, and the backboard.

This does not mean that the player's hand has to touch the backboard. The player's hand simply has to be touching the ball at the same time that the ball is touching the backboard.

Video evidence shows that, after Andre Iguodala released the ball, Lebron James' hand makes contact with the ball first. Then, for a split second, Lebron's hand, the ball, and the backboard all make contact simultaneously. That constitutes a trapped ball, and because the trap occurred after Iguodala released the ball, the trap is illegal in violation of Rule 11, § I e.

Whether or not Lebron's hand touched the ball before he trapped the ball against the backboard is completely inconsequential to whether Lebron's block was illegal. Whether the trap against the backboard occurred for only a split second or even a fraction thereof is also completely inconsequential to whether the trap is illegal. The rules contain no exception for length of time or for when the player's hand makes contact with the ball before the player's hand, the ball, and the backboard come into contact simultaneously.

The rules do say that a batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball. According to the video, Lebron does appear to initially bat the ball against the backboard. However, after the initial contact, Lebron's hand touches the ball while the ball is touching the backboard. Despite the initial batting of the ball, because Lebron's hand touched the ball while the ball touched the backboard, the contact constitutes a trapped ball in violation of Rule 11, § I e.

Furthermore, a trap against the backboard after the ball is released is illegal whether the trap is conducted by any NBA player playing in any other NBA game during the 2015-2016 season, according to the Official NBA Rules for the 2015-2016 season.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:37 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.

It seems clear that the ball was contacted by his right hand before his left hand made contact with the rim (the latter was incidental contact that didn't appear to have any effect on the path of the ball, of course), after which the ball's trajectory was changed radically following the contact by the right hand. This sequence eliminated any probability that the ball retained a chance to score at that point.

I'm not sure why we continue to litigate this issue ... it was one of those iconic plays that will probably stand the test of time. It's time to give up the ghost on this one ...


Please read my analysis. While the block did not violate Rule 11, § I c., Lebron does violate Rule 11, § I e.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject:

kapistedro wrote:
P.K. wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoT7B8RYFGQ

Pause at :31 seconds. Hand on rim, hand touching ball, ball touching backboard.

From the right hand side of the basket in slow motion

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-finals-every-thrilling-second-of-lebron-james-iconic-game-7-block/

go down to the video titled "STEP 5: EXTERMINATE"

In order of occurrence:
1. Lebron clearly 1st touches the ball when it's about 2" away from the backboard. (anything, ANYTHING at all, that happens after this point is completely irrelevant because the BLOCK has already occurred)

2. Lebron swats the ball into the backboard, which is completely LEGAL because the block originated 2" before the ball reached the backboard.

3. Lebron's off hand makes contact with the rim - well after he's already blocked the shot. That contact with the rim is also completely irrelevant, because the ball has already been blocked. Inadvertent contact with the rim is not a foul unless it affects the shot going through the rim - since the shot was already blocked, it's completely irrelevant.

4. Video clearly shows that there was no foul by Lebron on Iggy on that shot (you didn't claim this, but some other knucklehead did)

That slow motion video proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that not only was that a completely clean block, there wasn't even the tiniest remote chance that it was a goaltend or a foul. That may have been one of the cleanest blocks you'll ever see in the NBA.


According to Rule 11, § I e. of the Official Rules for NBA - 2015-2016 season, a player shall not trap the ball against the backboard after the ball has been released. To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously: contact between the ball, the hand, and the backboard.

This does not mean that the player's hand has to touch the backboard. The player's hand simply has to be touching the ball at the same time that the ball is touching the backboard.

Video evidence shows that, after Andre Iguodala released the ball, Lebron James' hand makes contact with the ball first. Then, for a split second, Lebron's hand, the ball, and the backboard all make contact simultaneously. That constitutes a trapped ball, and because the trap occurred after Iguodala released the ball, the trap is illegal in violation of Rule 11, § I e.

Whether or not Lebron's hand touched the ball before he trapped the ball against the backboard is completely inconsequential to whether Lebron's block was illegal. Whether the trap against the backboard occurred for only a split second or even a fraction thereof is also completely inconsequential to whether the trap is illegal. The rules contain no exception for length of time or for when the player's hand makes contact with the ball before the player's hand, the ball, and the backboard come into contact simultaneously.

The rules do say that a batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball. According to the video, Lebron does appear to initially bat the ball against the backboard. However, after the initial contact, Lebron's hand touches the ball while the ball is touching the backboard. Despite the initial batting of the ball, because Lebron's hand touched the ball while the ball touched the backboard, the contact constitutes a trapped ball in violation of Rule 11, § I e.

Furthermore, a trap against the backboard after the ball is released is illegal whether the trap is conducted by any NBA player playing in any other NBA game during the 2015-2016 season, according to the Official NBA Rules for the 2015-2016 season.

You shouldn't try explaining the rules if you don't first understand the rule yourself.
Lebron initially made contact with the ball when it is 2" from the backboard - this is a LEGAL block at this exact instant. AS SOON as he touches the ball, it's considered a block - and NO GOALTEND can be called after that instant.
The fact that Lebron's swat had a "follow through" motion that pushed the ball into the backboard is completely irrelevant.

If the NBA interpreted the rule the way you are imagining it, every single offensive player that lays the ball off the backboard where his hand was still in contact with the ball when it touched the board would then have to be called for goaltending. You don't see them calling all those layups as goaltends do you?

They had 2 different former NBA referee's on different sports shows that looked at that block, in slow motion, and declared it 100% legal (and one of them declared it absolutely amazing).

"Steve Javie, former NBA referee: "My first thing, now being out of officiating for five years and being in the replay center, I wanted to rewind it to make sure that it was legal. That's the first thing. Because I knew it was so close to being to the backboard, I wanted to see if he took it to the backboard or he took it off the backboard. So that was the first thing that I wanted to observe, and when I did observe it, then I just went like, 'Wow.' Just an incredible play because he did, even for people who are watching on TV, he came out of nowhere." [taken from ESPN.com]

Hopefully, that'll put an end to you guys trying to invent a goaltend where there wasn't one.
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Last edited by P.K. on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject:

Saw it live. One of the most epic and iconic blocks ever! Can't wait the Lakers to get back into the playoffs!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject:

kapistedro wrote:
the association wrote:
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.

It seems clear that the ball was contacted by his right hand before his left hand made contact with the rim (the latter was incidental contact that didn't appear to have any effect on the path of the ball, of course), after which the ball's trajectory was changed radically following the contact by the right hand. This sequence eliminated any probability that the ball retained a chance to score at that point.

I'm not sure why we continue to litigate this issue ... it was one of those iconic plays that will probably stand the test of time. It's time to give up the ghost on this one ...


Please read my analysis. While the block did not violate Rule 11, § I c., Lebron does violate Rule 11, § I e.


There was no violation of Rule 11. Period, full stop. The analysis by P.K. throughout this thread comprehensively debunks the goaltending argument. Above, I simply addressed the subsection that was raised by another contributor to the thread, the one specifically related to a player making contact with the rim.

The Block ... that's how it will likely go down in history ... it was the iconic, emphatic capstone on probably the greatest, most improbable NBA comeback ever. If you are a fan of LeBron, that play and this 2016 championship will provide a cessation (albeit a brief one) of all the bitter noise from his haters over the years. If you are one of the haters, it was a crushing moment that probably won't go away. LeBron will provide plenty of gristle to gnaw on before he retires, but this championship will be a thorn in the side of those opposed to his place in history for a long, long, long time.

Another outcome from the 2016 NBA Finals is the validation (mostly via Kyrie's play against Steph) of the assertion by some that the Warriors 2015 championship was Cleveland's for the taking if Love and Kyrie were healthy for the entire series. IMO, the Cavaliers have solid ground to claim that they would have very likely entered Game 4 in Cleveland last year with a 3 - 0 series lead. And the likelihood of the 2015 Warriors bouncing back from such a deficit isn't very good ... if you let your mind wander, it seems possible that Cleveland might have actually swept Golden State in 2015. How (bleep) crazy is that thought? And yet it's reasonable based on what we saw this month and what we know happened last June ...

Regardless, there was no goaltending on the play ... and Iguodala was healthy enough to play 38 minutes in Game 7, so the injury excuse others have floated is just plain weak; he simply didn't have enough in the tank to overcome LeBron's indomitable will to battle for the win with the championship on the line ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject:

After a dozen replays I can't see how this is a question. Great block.
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Venom
Sixth Man
Sixth Man


Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Posts: 35
Location: Planet of Symbiotes

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject:

LuciusAllen wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
So it IS called a basketball "ring"! Ted Cruz was accurate.



Seriously. That was one of the most ill informed jackass comments I have seen. How did that guy even get as far as he did? He was a clumsy, bumbling moron. How do you not know it's a basketball hoop?
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