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55
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject:

MJST wrote:

Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference

Should he have disliked the comment? Come on now, time to let the rivalry and picking sides go. One is here, the other is gone.

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject:

MJST wrote:

Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference

You don't usually make much of that kinda stuff.. You think it means something?

LakerSanity
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:09 pm Post subject:

55 wrote:

MJST wrote:

Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference

Should he have disliked the comment? Come on now, time to let the rivalry and picking sides go. One is here, the other is gone.

Yea, I saw Ingram respond to a Lonzo tweet with a unicorn emoji followed by a GIF of the three stooges. Can't believe he'd clown Russell like that.
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VicXLakers
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

55 wrote:

MJST wrote:

Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference

Should he have disliked the comment? Come on now, time to let the rivalry and picking sides go. One is here, the other is gone.

Yea, I saw Ingram respond to a Lonzo tweet with a unicorn emoji followed by a GIF of the three stooges. Can't believe he'd clown Russell like that.

KeepItRealOrElse
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject:

dao wrote:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.

I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.

Found that kind of odd

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.

Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.

For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season.

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

come on man that's just garbage. He definitely showed some effectiveness at the end of the season. We've seen the numbers earlier in this thread about his driving numbers at the end of the year being borderline elite. We've seen that his mid range jump shooting from february to the end of the season was on par with Guys like Kawhi/Durant/George. So he's shown big time potential in terms of driving and in terms of mid range jump shooting. Driving threat + Mid range game = a very solid foundation for a primary scorer.

It's funny.... There's a universe where he could be Demar Derozen offensively. How likely idk, but I think he could. Think about it.
And on the other end I still think he's going to be great. He had the age of a college freshman, and the body of a high school Senior - his defensive motor died 1/4 way into the season, not surprised

PICKnPOP
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject:

Ingram defense is only going to get better as he fills out, becomes more athletic and learns to anticipate better. Can't really judge his defense accurately based on what we saw from his rookie season. He's so underdeveloped that he shouldn't even be able to compete at this high of a level yet imo I think we saw what a year of NBA strength training did for him by the end of last season. Once he was strong enough to go up with one leg he was dunking all over guys. We're going to see similar progress defensively as he starts to get stronger and full out. Imo he's gonna be a monster on that end of the floor.

tox
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Is "I don't know" a fair answer?

I don't think I've ever seen a guy with his kind of length be less disruptive with it. It seems to me that it's something that should just click one day, but even other raw, young guys (like Giannis, for example) were much better in this respect.

I think he can be a good overall defender, but I have a lower opinion of his potential on that end than I did at the beginning of the year.

Yeah of course, lol. I think that's the fairest answer. Statistically he doesn't compare favorably to rookie Durant or Prince, let alone AK47 or Giannis. But that's a sample size of four, and like you said it might just click one day. Like with his shooting, it's more concerning than damning.

Appreciate the response

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

dao wrote:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

When you look at one, specific element of a guy's game at one, specific time of year, you're gonna find something to like about virtually anyone. His crown jewel was a 13.5/4/2.5 stretch (on an admittedly nice 56 TS%) in 11 games in March in a whopping 35.4mpg. Sure, we can theorize about what he could be, but "he isn't dependent on anyone else generating offense for him to be effective"? My goodness.

I do respect your logical and rational approach in how you analyze the game.. However I do believe your barometer is off in regards to Ingram.

Yes, he isn't dependent on others to generate his opportunities. Why would you take issue with this statement? He clearly demonstrated he's capable of manufacturing a good look for himself.

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season?

Nope.. lol. He has all the tools to be an above average defender, I cant say that he will be though. I would also add that it's too early to say that it will always be an issue.

No worries, I hope he gets there. Generally good stocks guys put up numbers right away, but he can also become a solid defender without creating a lot of disruptive events (a la Klay)

Halflife
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject:

Lonzo is the perfect compliment to bi. Magic saying he was untouchable and lonzo coming in to take the spotlight off of him will elevate his play. Plus it seems like they both just love to play the game.

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:31 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season?

Nope.. lol. He has all the tools to be an above average defender, I cant say that he will be though. I would also add that it's too early to say that it will always be an issue.

No worries, I hope he gets there. Generally good stocks guys put up numbers right away, but he can also become a solid defender without creating a lot of disruptive events (a la Klay)

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:22 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

dao wrote:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

That's fair. But with Ingram, it's not like you jump to august and see he's good at this, jump to december he's good at that, etc. Things started clicking for him mid season and didn't stop clicking. It culminated in him becoming a pretty useful offensive player at the end of his rookie season, after having been terrible at the start of the season. That is tangible growth.

13.5/4/2.5 on 56 TS%, those are legit numbers for a player at his stage of development. I'm not sure which 11 game span that is. However, in his final 17 games, his numbers were

13.9/3.8/2.6 in 31.4 minutes per game. That's 16 points per 36. Those are not bad numbers for a player his age with such an underdeveloped physique. And a 17 game sample size is nothing to sneeze at, especially since they are part of the general upward trend that we saw.

So we don't have to just jump around to pick his best numbers. There is a general trend in his production: up, up, up as the season went on. That is a very good sign.

We shall see if this trend continues in his second season. I expect him to make big jumps this offseason and be around 20 points per 36 minutes. He was at 16 points per 36 after things started to click for him at the end of the year, so this isn't as big of a stretch as it seems.

h2omike
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject:

I think a lot of guys will have better numbers with Ball facilitating the game.

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:

dao wrote:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

If he never becomes a good three point shooter, yeah, a Derozen type offensive ceiling is probably accurate. He has to continue to improve his ball handling, but I think his mid range game and driving ability will be legit going forward. The three ball is the big question mark.

nash
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

JeezyXVII wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

He mention Zu and Nance cause they were in the back at the press conf for Lonzo.. and probably thought of the other big guy Rendle.

He didnt mention BI, Lopez, Deng, JC, Brewer, Nwaba.. guess their all getting traded

Yeah, I'd read nothing into this other than those guys being in the room.

However, pretty sure Nance and Zu both are in our Untouchables with Ingram and now Ball.

I'm not going as far as calling them untouchables, but I see those players as pieces we would like to keep.

Andre2K
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:01 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

tox wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

So here's a list of 18-20 year old rookies who played as many minutes as Ingram who posted a BPM of -3 or worse:

Link

Marvin Williams and JR Smith went on to become productive role-players, while young scoring guards like Lavine and Booker have shown promise (though neither are positive BPM players yet in year two and three, respectively). Of course, Okafor and Mudiay are there as well.

It's only one data point, but BI has a pretty deep hole to dig himself out of to become a productive starter let alone a star after his very rocky first season. Will he be an outlier? Dirk posted a -2.9 BPM on 49% TS% as a 20 year old rookie and went on to become an all-time great. Hopefully BI will have a similar jump between years one and two that Dirk had, and then continue to get better from there.

Dirk strikes me as the best case scenario for Ingram. I think his -4 BPM or whatever is misleading. It was basically a redshirt season since he was so young and so thin. That's why I've always stressed the only concern you should have about Ingram (IMO) is his shooting because that's not just a matter of youth.

No concern over the low STL% & BLK%, especially considering his length?

Gordon Hayward at 20 years old posted a 1.3 STL% and 1.3 BLK% in his rookie season, he still ended up becoming an allstar and would be one of the most coveted players in this year’s free agency at the age of 26. He posted a career high of 2.2 STL% in 2014-15 at the age of 24, would you say he's a bad defender?

*Giannis posted 1.7 STL% and 2.6 BLK% in his rookie season at 19.

Brandon Ingram as a 19 year old rookie (2nd youngest player in the league) posted 1.1 STL% and 1.3 BLK% playing 28 mins per game.

He got a lot of reps and got better as his monthly splits showed. Maybe he won’t be the shot blocker that he was projected to be, but his length would still allow him to alter shots and help protect the rim from the weakside. I have no reasons to believe he won’t get better. I think it all hinges on him getting stronger and gaining better reads on defense which develops overtime studying film and following the coach's game plan. He really doesn’t have to be Giannis defensively to be a valuable player for us.
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:12 pm Post subject:

All I needed to see was him blocking durant _________________ Kobe

defense
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:29 pm Post subject:

Not gonna lie I was disappointed with him on the defensive end. He definitely needs to improve.

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:31 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

dao wrote:

He wasn't up, up, up throughout. He had a bad April, in fact, with a 46.6 TS% in 7 games as opposed to the 56 TS% in 11 games in March. His FT shooting, 3PT shooting, and rebounding went down after the All-Star break, despite his mid range success, and he wasn't making strides defensively either.

The most encouraging thing that I saw toward the end of the season was the driving, and that definitely is important, but you gotta make FTs and/or 3PTs to become an impact scorer from the wing, and he has a ways to go. The jumper unlocks everything for him, IMO.

those last 7 games of the season were after he came back from injury. The injury killed some of the momentum he had been gaining. He was on minutes restriction in those games, so it is very likely that he was not 100% healthy.

As for rebounding, shooting, and defense, no, he didn't turn the corner on those facets of the game during his rookie season. His defense will obviously improve with experience. The shooting likely will as well, though this is less of a certainty. The rebounding will be interesting to watch. I think he should improve significantly in that regard as he gains size and strength. Giannis jumped from 6.4 rebounds per 36 as a rookie to 8.9 per 36 now. Ingram averaged 5.0 rebounds per 36 this year. I doubt Ingram will every reach 9 rebounds per game like Giannis, but we can expect significant improvement as he gets stronger.

Last edited by dao on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:41 pm Post subject:

defense wrote:

Not gonna lie I was disappointed with him on the defensive end. He definitely needs to improve.

his defense regressed as the season went on. I give him a pass in his rookie year, especially given his age, since he at least had flashes of brilliance against elite offensive players in several games early in the season. But there are no more excuses for him going into his second season. It's time to see significantly improved defensive consistency, significantly improved free throw shooting, and at least modestly improved three point shooting (33% from three at least this year).

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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:42 pm Post subject:

If you're productive, but act like you're 21 yrs old, you will get shipped out. If you're unproductive, but have an old soul, you will be untouchable. I kid, I kid... I still have high hopes for Ingram. It would be sad if turns out to be a bust, that would be two wasted #2s. But lets see what Lonzo could do with him.

Andre2K
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject:

dao wrote:

defense wrote:

Not gonna lie I was disappointed with him on the defensive end. He definitely needs to improve.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to expect from him next season but I expect his numbers to improve across the board. He was definitely on an upward trajectory after the all star break and you could see him become more confident on the floor. Looking forward to summer league to see him run with Lonzo
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SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:

If you're productive, but act like you're 21 yrs old, you will get shipped out. If you're unproductive, but have an old soul, you will be untouchable.

I kid, I kid... I still have high hopes for Ingram. It would be sad if turns out to be a bust, that would be two wasted #2s. But lets see what Lonzo could do with him.

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:53 pm Post subject:

Andre2K wrote:

dao wrote:

defense wrote:

Not gonna lie I was disappointed with him on the defensive end. He definitely needs to improve.

Yep, should be fun to watch, though he's only playing in a few games from what I read.

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

Runway8 wrote:

I agree with him though

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