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Vin
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Joined: 03 Jan 2013
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Location: France
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | Bottom line.. Those on the fence in regards to Ingram will remain there until he's consistently not bad.. It's really that simple..
You won't convince those who are unconvinced no matter how artful and convincing your argument is.
Neither will those who are more reliant on stats to assess a players trajectory able to sway those who believe Ingram is something special.
Neither position can be proven right.. Projections on what he will be (player comps) are all over the place. Which are all flawed, plays well.. Giannis,KW.. Plays bad.. poor mans Taysuan lol.. He's not even a fully developed embryo, we've only seen glimpses of what his skill sets will entail.
As he develops his style of play will adjust. With a mid range shot he's something entirely different from what he is now. With a 3pt shot he's something entirely different from that. With a heavier frame he's something else all together. These variables playing out are all in the realm of possibility, which is why I think we are all jumping the gun a bit on what Ingram will be.
Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Cant say that enough.. |
Well put |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Strength and size is what Ingram needs. He has the skills and moves but he's so physically weak and skinny that he loses his balance easily with contact. It's gonna take another 2 years for him to develop his physique to NBA level and once he does I expect a guy that will be putting up 22/7/4 on 46/36/75 shooting |
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VicXLakers
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 12 wrote: | | What the hell is going on in here? |
time to mod the mods... |
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greenfrog
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Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | I guess analytics can't get over the Russell trade either. |
Huh? They both have lousy RPMs. Ingram's score has actually made a far bigger jump this season than Russell's which has basically plateaued (-1.67 to -1.70). |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | Age 20 season
BPM
Kawhi.....................+4.3
Giannis...................+0.5
Paul George............+0.0
Average Player.........+0.0
Replacement Level....-2.0
Brandon Ingram.......-2.3
RPM
Giannis.................+0.80
Average Player.......+0.00
Brandon Ingram.....-.2.32
*RPM wasn't available for Kawhi & George at that time.
TS%
Kawhi...................57.2%
Average Player.......55.3%
Giannis.................55.2%
Paul George...........54.2%
Brandon Ingram.....49.9%
20 year old Fowards in their 2nd year, by BPM: link
I guess analytics can't get over the Russell trade either. |
3 games ago, he was at 52.3 TS% and -1.1 BPM. It's quite fluid right now. He just played three terrible games, but has had some stretches of impressive play this year relative to age, even without a jump shot. |
Numbers does not favor Ingram but the eye test tells me that his shortcomings right now are fixable. His shooting particularly his FTs are concerning but I think he’ll put it together after getting more comfortable with his new form. His lack of strength and thin frame, he has the work cut out for him. Right now we see glimpses on both ends. I don’t think he is ready to take a lead role both physically and mentally. But he will be All NBA in his prime years sans any major injury. |
yep, we have seen plenty of glimpses. And a before these last three games, the numbers DID favor Ingram.
I imagine his scouting report has started catching up to him after that dominant stretch in the first half of the Memphis game. Either that, or he just has entered into a slump. He had been having a strong season before this three game skid. And now the sky is falling again.
Ingram will be fine when his jumper starts falling. He's definitely shown some very nice flashes already, and the season is still quite young.
Last edited by dao on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Vin wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | Bottom line.. Those on the fence in regards to Ingram will remain there until he's consistently not bad.. It's really that simple..
You won't convince those who are unconvinced no matter how artful and convincing your argument is.
Neither will those who are more reliant on stats to assess a players trajectory able to sway those who believe Ingram is something special.
Neither position can be proven right.. Projections on what he will be (player comps) are all over the place. Which are all flawed, plays well.. Giannis,KW.. Plays bad.. poor mans Taysuan lol.. He's not even a fully developed embryo, we've only seen glimpses of what his skill sets will entail.
As he develops his style of play will adjust. With a mid range shot he's something entirely different from what he is now. With a 3pt shot he's something entirely different from that. With a heavier frame he's something else all together. These variables playing out are all in the realm of possibility, which is why I think we are all jumping the gun a bit on what Ingram will be.
Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Cant say that enough.. |
Well put |
Bringing facts in a battle of feelings... booooring |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Vin wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | Bottom line.. Those on the fence in regards to Ingram will remain there until he's consistently not bad.. It's really that simple..
You won't convince those who are unconvinced no matter how artful and convincing your argument is.
Neither will those who are more reliant on stats to assess a players trajectory able to sway those who believe Ingram is something special.
Neither position can be proven right.. Projections on what he will be (player comps) are all over the place. Which are all flawed, plays well.. Giannis,KW.. Plays bad.. poor mans Taysuan lol.. He's not even a fully developed embryo, we've only seen glimpses of what his skill sets will entail.
As he develops his style of play will adjust. With a mid range shot he's something entirely different from what he is now. With a 3pt shot he's something entirely different from that. With a heavier frame he's something else all together. These variables playing out are all in the realm of possibility, which is why I think we are all jumping the gun a bit on what Ingram will be.
Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Cant say that enough.. |
Well put |
Bringing facts in a battle of feelings... booooring |
the facts favored Ingram before this three game skid. They will favor him again. |
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kikanga
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Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bballchinaski wrote: | You gotta have a big bias to think that randle will somehow end up a better nba player than randle, but alas
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The guy's got a good point though. No way Randle outperforms Randle throughout his career.
If Randle ever outplays Randle, I'll delete my LG account. That's how confident I am in my prediction.
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governator
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | bballchinaski wrote: | You gotta have a big bias to think that randle will somehow end up a better nba player than randle, but alas
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The guy's got a good point though. No way Randle outperforms Randle throughout his career.
If Randle ever outplays Randle, I'll delete my LG account. That's how confident I am in my prediction. |
You can't handle Randle vs Randle |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | bballchinaski wrote: | You gotta have a big bias to think that randle will somehow end up a better nba player than randle, but alas
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The guy's got a good point though. No way Randle outperforms Randle throughout his career.
If Randle ever outplays Randle, I'll delete my LG account. That's how confident I am in my prediction. |
You can't handle Randle vs Randle |
Wouldn't even need the right side of the court. Wonder how many left hand drives and spin moves I could watch before barfing from dizziness.
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | bballchinaski wrote: | You gotta have a big bias to think that randle will somehow end up a better nba player than randle, but alas
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The guy's got a good point though. No way Randle outperforms Randle throughout his career.
If Randle ever outplays Randle, I'll delete my LG account. That's how confident I am in my prediction. |
Randle at center has outplayed Randle at PF. Delete your account. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still pretty bullish on Ingram. We are a slightly better team with him on the floor.
http://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=1
And his traditional and advanced stats are all better this year than last (with a few exceptions). But his rebounding rate is pathetic. Borderline offensive.
I can't remember watching a player ever shoot as poorly as Ball. But I've been impressed with his playmaking and rebounding.
Excited for both players' futures.
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Vin wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | Bottom line.. Those on the fence in regards to Ingram will remain there until he's consistently not bad.. It's really that simple..
You won't convince those who are unconvinced no matter how artful and convincing your argument is.
Neither will those who are more reliant on stats to assess a players trajectory able to sway those who believe Ingram is something special.
Neither position can be proven right.. Projections on what he will be (player comps) are all over the place. Which are all flawed, plays well.. Giannis,KW.. Plays bad.. poor mans Taysuan lol.. He's not even a fully developed embryo, we've only seen glimpses of what his skill sets will entail.
As he develops his style of play will adjust. With a mid range shot he's something entirely different from what he is now. With a 3pt shot he's something entirely different from that. With a heavier frame he's something else all together. These variables playing out are all in the realm of possibility, which is why I think we are all jumping the gun a bit on what Ingram will be.
Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Time is and will be our arbiter.. Cant say that enough.. |
Well put |
Bringing facts in a battle of feelings... booooring |
Delete.. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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"Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
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SocalDevin
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Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
lol agreed |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
agreed. The Memphis gaem was a perfect example of this.Ingram looked dominant in the first half, impotent in the second when the defense took away the drive and gave him the mid range jumper. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
I mean.. you can dismiss those examples but the fact remains that they managed to be effective, and have solid to exceptional careers in spite of not having jumpers initially.
Which throws the basis for what you're communicating out of the window. |
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SocalDevin
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Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
agreed. The Memphis gaem was a perfect example of this.Ingram looked dominant in the first half, impotent in the second when the defense took away the drive and gave him the mid range jumper. |
Well.. yea that's who he is now.. But is that who he'll be a year or so from now? These positions in this thread are beginning to make less and less sense to me. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | dao wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
agreed. The Memphis gaem was a perfect example of this.Ingram looked dominant in the first half, impotent in the second when the defense took away the drive and gave him the mid range jumper. |
Well.. yea that's who he is now.. But is that who he'll be a year or so from now? These positions in this thread are beginning to make less and less sense to me. |
If he can’t shoot he’s no more than a fringe starter/role player because he’s not good enough at other things to be a star without shooting like Simmons, Giannas, young Lebron etc. I think that’s the position most are taking and it’s a very fair assessment. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | dao wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
agreed. The Memphis gaem was a perfect example of this.Ingram looked dominant in the first half, impotent in the second when the defense took away the drive and gave him the mid range jumper. |
Well.. yea that's who he is now.. But is that who he'll be a year or so from now? These positions in this thread are beginning to make less and less sense to me. |
If he can’t shoot he’s no more than a fringe starter/role player because he’s not good enough at other things to be a star without shooting like Simmons, Giannas, young Lebron etc. I think that’s the position most are taking and it’s a very fair assessment. |
That's pretty much stating the obvious given his current physical limitations. Which will not always be limitations..
It's not a fair assessment because none of you can say that he won't become a better shooter, neither can you say he won't get stronger. Did the aforementioned players improve in shooting? Yes.. they did. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
I'm just going to refute the "LeBron James couldn't shoot" argument.
35% from 3'-10'
35% 16' to <3
29% 3pt.
That was rookie year. By the time he was 3rd year in the L, he was already league average from the perimeter. Ridiculous for 21 yo.
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https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
I'm just going to refute the "LeBron James couldn't shoot" argument.
35% from 3'-10'
35% 16' to <3
29% 3pt.
That was rookie year. By the time he was 3rd year in the L, he was already league average from the perimeter. Ridiculous for 21 yo. |
Even if you were to remove him from the equation my point stands.. There are many more examples. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | "Discussion is futile if you can't shoot" - Mike Dantoni
Lol amirite. I don't even wanna think about his future game until he starts being able to shoot |
Simmons can't shoot.. Grant Hill couldn't shoot.. Giannis couldn't shoot.. Lebron couldn't shoot.. There are a host of others.
I get it guys.. He hasn't played well consistently, no getting around that. But some of this commentary stinks.. |
Hill played in a different era.. Giannis is a different being. Bron wouldn't be Bron if he didn't improve his jumper exponentionally.
Simmons is also a different level athlete - but his ceiling will be capped lower than ideally if he has no jumper..
Ingram has to, has to be able to shoot. |
I'm just going to refute the "LeBron James couldn't shoot" argument.
35% from 3'-10'
35% 16' to <3
29% 3pt.
That was rookie year. By the time he was 3rd year in the L, he was already league average from the perimeter. Ridiculous for 21 yo. |
Even if you were to remove him from the equation my point stands.. There are many more examples. |
Everyone is implying that shooting MEANS 3-point shooting. Hill was deadly from midrange. LeBron accelerated that shooting curve real fast.
Ben Simmons, cannot even shoot. That is very real.
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