View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
manlisten Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 3169
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
venturalakersfan wrote: | manlisten wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | The problem is that we aren’t the Ingram’s, we are the Lakers. We want to develop Ingram but not at the expense of other players. Ingram has never been the kind of player that you build your offense around, why force that now? Some of you are starting at “Ingram is going to be a superstar” and extrapolating backward from that to what that player should be at 20. He isn’t that. He is developing nicely at 20 but isn’t good enough to be the player to break the offense. It just seems that if this two max dream works out, some of you will be disappointed. |
You think that Ingram isn't the player to build an offense around. The Lakers clearly disagree. And at the expense of who exactly? Certainly not Zo, definitely not Kuz who last I checked had just as much usage as BI and shoots whenever he feels like it. Can't be Nance who is petrified of scoring. Lopez and KCP who have no future here? Clarkson who last I checked had the highest usage on the team? I don't get it. |
Really? Is that why they are looking at signing Star FAs? To build the offense around Ingram? |
I'm obviously talking about this season, don't know how such a smart, omniscient guy like yourself could miss that. And I like how you avoided everything else in my post seemingly because you have no counterpoint. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
manlisten Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 3169
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | manlisten wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | The problem is that we aren’t the Ingram’s, we are the Lakers. We want to develop Ingram but not at the expense of other players. Ingram has never been the kind of player that you build your offense around, why force that now? Some of you are starting at “Ingram is going to be a superstar” and extrapolating backward from that to what that player should be at 20. He isn’t that. He is developing nicely at 20 but isn’t good enough to be the player to break the offense. It just seems that if this two max dream works out, some of you will be disappointed. |
You think that Ingram isn't the player to build an offense around. The Lakers clearly disagree. And at the expense of who exactly? Certainly not Zo, definitely not Kuz who last I checked had just as much usage as BI and shoots whenever he feels like it. Can't be Nance who is petrified of scoring. Lopez and KCP who have no future here? Clarkson who last I checked had the highest usage on the team? I don't get it. |
The point is to build Ingram's off ball skills because that's what he's going to need if he's playing next to some combination of LeBron, Paul George, and DeMarcus Cousins. In practice, it means running your sets more and running Ingram isos less -- it doesn't mean giving KCP and Lopez more isos, but they might end up with more shotmaking responsibility. If that's it, so be it.
The problem is if Ingram doesn't learn to play off ball, especially as a shooter, with LeBron and Paul George, there are going to be a variety of stats showing how much better the Lakers are when George and LeBron are without Ingram on the court. There's a reason Love's game has radically shifted from what he was like with the Wolves. That's a problem if you like Ingram and that's a problem if you like winning.
There's a reason the Spurs brought up Kawhi the way they did. |
I hear you. And my point is that it's infinitely easier to develop off ball skills than primary skills. Especially if you're playing off of all stars. It's basically the way he started last season when his usage was lower than guys like Tarik Black and Corey Brewer. Not to mention that if we were to sign say PG/Cousins, Ingram would have a much easier time playing the same way with the spacing those guys would create.
The reason the Spurs brought up Kawhi the way they did is because they had Duncan, Ginobili and Parker to carry the load. Kawhi had to fit in where he could, they didn't need his offense. I don't think it's a coincidence that his responsibility increased as those guys became less potent. His defense has also taken a step back since then. Same reason the Celtics are developing Brown and Tatum the way they are. This Laker team falls under completely different circumstances. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
3baller Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Oct 2017 Posts: 992
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AFireInside619 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | The problem is that we aren’t the Ingram’s, we are the Lakers. We want to develop Ingram but not at the expense of other players. Ingram has never been the kind of player that you build your offense around, why force that now? Some of you are starting at “Ingram is going to be a superstar” and extrapolating backward from that to what that player should be at 20. He isn’t that. He is developing nicely at 20 but isn’t good enough to be the player to break the offense. It just seems that if this two max dream works out, some of you will be disappointed. |
You are correct VLF. If Ingram is brought up the right way he can be that Swiss Army Knife, Kawhi-type player. And if you had the stones to bring Kobe up the right way instead of turning him into ISO Joe he would be undisputedly the greatest ever. Now instead many NBA writers have him top 15 behind Duncan. He should be top 5. Plus you gave him that legacy contract coming of the Achilles when you knew full well Lebron and Carmelo were talking about teaming up. So I agree. Let's bring Ingram up the right way, so instead of having his style of play deter free agents, it invites them to play along side of him. Hopefully Magic & Pelinka don't make the same mistakes the previous regime made when handling Kobe. Instead of 5 rings, he could have been looking at 7+. |
All well and good if we had time machines. Hindsight is 20/20. Swiss-army knives weren't a thing back in '96. All these triple double guys weren't a thing until Lebron came along and showed everybody that it's attainable especially if you have the ball in your hands down the court 9 times out of 10 and you have the size to rebound. Who can say that Kobe would have even won 1 let alone 5 rings if he went that route instead of being MJ 2.0?
With Ingram, I don't think it would have been smart to kinda box him in and tell him "you suck at scoring the ball, just focus on D" after just 1 year and especially after he showed flashes of brilliance offensively towards the end of the season. And again, hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew that we were gonna be able to draft a Kyle Kuzma and how he would turn out and nobody knew JC and Randle would be as good as they are now offensively and the FO also knew one of them would most likely be gone by the end of the year. Nick Young was a goner and all we had coming into the off season was DLO( ). It would have been natural for Ingram, and for the FO to ask him, to develop his offense last summer.
After this year, all of us would have a better idea what his ceiling offensively truly is. But he should first be allowed to try and show us how high he can go. The FO would have more data on him by the end of the year and would be in a better position to decide which direction to go with regards to his development.
What I do agree on though is that he should have worked on his outside game more and focused on getting stronger. With his current physique, he really shouldn't be looking to bang bodies every time down the court. Using explosiveness as your main weapon and going Leeroy Jenkins every time takes a toll on the body. Heaven forbid, I'll rub my mouth on sand paper, just ask D. Rose. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mookielala Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 Posts: 3026
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BI has been our second-leading assist maker pretty much all year. Hopefully, when the team starts shooting better, those numbers will go up.
The main thing I'd like to see BI work on is limiting TOs. I've seen progress in almost every other aspect of his game. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trablos Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017 Posts: 3020
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AFireInside619 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | The problem is that we aren’t the Ingram’s, we are the Lakers. We want to develop Ingram but not at the expense of other players. Ingram has never been the kind of player that you build your offense around, why force that now? Some of you are starting at “Ingram is going to be a superstar” and extrapolating backward from that to what that player should be at 20. He isn’t that. He is developing nicely at 20 but isn’t good enough to be the player to break the offense. It just seems that if this two max dream works out, some of you will be disappointed. |
You are correct VLF. If Ingram is brought up the right way he can be that Swiss Army Knife, Kawhi-type player. And if you had the stones to bring Kobe up the right way instead of turning him into ISO Joe he would be undisputedly the greatest ever. Now instead many NBA writers have him top 15 behind Duncan. He should be top 5. Plus you gave him that legacy contract coming of the Achilles when you knew full well Lebron and Carmelo were talking about teaming up. So I agree. Let's bring Ingram up the right way, so instead of having his style of play deter free agents, it invites them to play along side of him. Hopefully Magic & Pelinka don't make the same mistakes the previous regime made when handling Kobe. Instead of 5 rings, he could have been looking at 7+. |
I'm sorry, I don't get this post. Where did we go wrong in "developing" Kobe? We were fortunate enough to draft not just a talented, but also psychotically obsessed basketball freak and pair him with one of the most dominate bigman and brilliant coach of all time. Kobe was going to be Kobe regardless, what could we have done differently to make sure he was the "undisputed" goat? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry folks I was just taking little fun jabs at Kupchek's post and his anti-Magic stance. Next time I won't use Kobe as an example on his jersey retirement day. It works other days if the week but I guess I picked the wrong day to jab VLF and use Kobe as an example. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
At 20 you could see that Kobe was going to be a top offensive option and that he had star written all over him. We can’t say that about Ingram, the FO and coaching staff are pushing him that way. As has been mentioned before, Ingram being a supporting player from different facets of the game (and everyone else playing the same role) will advance the team more effectively. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mookielala Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 Posts: 3026
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BI is nothing like Carmelo or Kobe temperament-wise. And I mean that as a compliment. He's more coachable, less greedy with the ball. Kuzma is actually more like them in that he will shoot it without conscience. But these are both young projects, works in progress. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
mookielala wrote: | BI is nothing like Carmelo or Kobe temperament-wise. And I mean that as a compliment. He's more coachable, less greedy with the ball. Kuzma is actually more like them in that he will shoot it without conscience. But these are both young projects, works in progress. |
Be careful. Kobe defenders are out in full force for jersey retirement day. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
venturalakersfan wrote: | At 20 you could see that Kobe was going to be a top offensive option and that he had star written all over him. We can’t say that about Ingram, the FO and coaching staff are pushing him that way. As has been mentioned before, Ingram being a supporting player from different facets of the game (and everyone else playing the same role) will advance the team more effectively. |
Like I said earlier, I agree with you about what you said about Ingram. I also agree with you at 20 Kobe was worlds better than Ingram at scoring. I saw you take another shot at Magic so I took another shot at the old regime. Like Draymond said, "I'm petty." 😁 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trablos Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017 Posts: 3020
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BI is a workhorse, humble, intelligent, wants to be great....so why shouldn't we push him? I am not sure of the points being made the last few pages to be honest, are we holding him back somehow? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Luminous8 Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017 Posts: 2192
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GoldenThroat wrote: | manlisten wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Andre2K wrote: | I know it does, I support it actually. I've probably the main person here that complains that Luke plays BI and Lonzo way too many minutes. However, I understand the method to the madness, the front office apparently don't care about what happens with the pick, they want to expedite the young guys development by giving them as many reps as possible, I don't have a problem with that as long as we hit on our free agency targets in the offseason.
I think the criticisms should be directed more at Luke tho, instead of the young guys, thats just how I feel about it. |
My complaint is directed at Luke, and the FO by extension. I greatly dislike the development path that they have him on. I think he's done about as well as I could have hoped for while being miscast. I would've loved for them to develop him the same way that Kawhi was developed. He flashes some tremendous defensive potential, but is unable to fulfill his defensive potential while bearing the burden of the offense. That isn't his fault...it's unreasonable to ask him to do that.
He's a lot closer to being a great defensive player than a great offensive one, and I would have loved to see them set his goal as becoming All-NBA defender ASAP, while letting guys who are more equipped to carry the offense carry the load, an focusing his offensive energy on off-ball scenarios. The ISO/on-ball stuff should be the last layer, as it was with Kawhi. This isn't what's best for him and it isn't what's best for the team...short term or long term. If we do hit those Free Agency targets, having the offense run through him instead of having the ball in his hands less won't be applicable experience anyway. |
I don't get why it matters. If he develops his offense before his defense on a team that isn't going anywhere this season regardless. Especially if you think his offense needs more work than his defense. Again it reeks of the 'it's not my way therefore it's wrong' kind of attitude, if I'm allowed to say something like that without getting smacked up by the powers that be. I seem to remember KD working on his offense and also struggling mightily well before focusing on the other end and some would say he turned out alright. Is it possible there is more than one path to becoming a great player or does everyone have to be Kawhi? |
It matters because he's not getting experience doing the things that he will need to be doing if we hit on our Free Agency targets. If we sign Paul George, Paul George is going to take the lion's share of our half court touches. If we sign DeMarcus Cousins or LeBron James, same thing. Is he going to be capable of knocking down spot up jumpers with consistency when that happens? Will he be ready to carry more of a defensive burden instead?
Even if we don't sign a FA, they aren't putting him in a position to do what comes most naturally. KD was a 20 ppg guy from Day 1. Developing him as a scorer - when that's where he was most naturally talented - made perfect sense, because it's the same rationale. That's how players have historically been developed effectively, by emphasizing what they're naturally talented at. |
Except that isolation scoring IS something that has always come natural to Ingram, even though I also don't agree with how they use Ingram all the time. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
manlisten Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 3169
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^Great point. I almost forgot he had a higher PPP on isos than KD in college.
Last 7 games:
20 ppg 44% FG 47% 3FG. Kinda speaks for itself _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Luminous8 wrote: | Except that isolation scoring IS something that has always come natural to Ingram, even though I also don't agree with how they use Ingram all the time. |
He's in the 22nd percentile (0.74 PPP) as an Isolation scorer, and he's in the 23rd percentile when you factor in passing. It is not something that has always come natural to him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
YUCKKKKKJJKJYTRDDTFTDDD SHOOT THE J |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerMindLA Star Player
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 Posts: 5344
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Watching Ingram can be so frustrating - he just has no confidence in his jumper. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BigBallerBrand Star Player
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 Posts: 5785 Location: LA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Has anyone ever been blocked 3x in a row before? _________________ Billions Billions Billions |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That was bound to happen |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bigkobe81 Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Jul 2012 Posts: 163
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AFireInside619 wrote: | He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
They were all fouls that didn’t get called?
Hilarious that some of you want him to fail so bad |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bigkobe81 wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
They were all fouls that didn’t get called?
Hilarious that some of you want him to fail so bad |
They weren't fouls |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nice to see he can shake guys on the perimeter and get to the whole without a screen.. He's a good two seasons away before being a well rounded offensive player. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bigkobe81 Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Jul 2012 Posts: 163
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | bigkobe81 wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
They were all fouls that didn’t get called?
Hilarious that some of you want him to fail so bad |
They weren't fouls |
https://twitter.com/957thegame/status/942990149192794112
Javale’s arm literally knocked his head sideways but this isn’t a foul? Take your bias somewhere else lol |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bigkobe81 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | bigkobe81 wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
They were all fouls that didn’t get called?
Hilarious that some of you want him to fail so bad |
They weren't fouls |
https://twitter.com/957thegame/status/942990149192794112
Javale’s arm literally knocked his head sideways but this isn’t a foul? Take your bias somewhere else lol |
Ok that one was.. he's still hurt if they call the foul...... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
|
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bigkobe81 wrote: | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | bigkobe81 wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | He got blocked three times in a row. The last one by Jordan Bell looked painful. Mentally and physically. |
They were all fouls that didn’t get called?
Hilarious that some of you want him to fail so bad |
They weren't fouls |
https://twitter.com/957thegame/status/942990149192794112
Javale’s arm literally knocked his head sideways but this isn’t a foul? Take your bias somewhere else lol |
Yes the last one was a foul. And to the dude who said I wanted BI to fail you clearly haven't read anything I've wrote previous. I've been pretty much a shameless BI apologist. 😂 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|