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oldschool32
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
DeRozan too. |
Just out of curiosity, how do the numbers look for guys like Sam Cassell and Rip Hamilton? Just wondering out of sheer curiosity. Those are some of the best mid range shooters I can remember from not too long ago.
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| oldschool32 wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
DeRozan too. |
Just out of curiosity, how do the numbers look for guys like Sam Cassell and Rip Hamilton? Just wondering out of sheer curiosity. Those are some of the best mid range shooters I can remember from not too long ago. |
NBA.com is great for this
http://stats.nba.com/player/1888/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
This is the championship year when the Pistons beat us. In the regular season, Rip shot 39.7% from midrange, but he shot better from 10-16 (closer to 48%).
http://stats.nba.com/player/208/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
That same year, Cassell shot 47% (!) from midrange. Of course, 47% from midrange is equivalent to 31.3% from the 3 point line. |
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oldschool32
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. Unfortunately my old ipad and nba.com don't play together so nicely anymore.
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Stupid numbers. It doesn't matter how often a player actually makes shot, it's how often he makes them in your heart and imagination that counts.
He'll never shoot the 57.0 eFG% from mid range that he's currently shooting from 3PT range. |
Lol. My argument is predicated on what he can do to be an elite player. I believed with his length and skills, he should master the midrange to become one. On the contrary, you are very skeptical with him on becoming one anyway so you believed that based on his FG%, he should play on his strength which is his 3 ball and take it to the hole. Next year if we get couple of game changers and we are on a win mode now, I agree that he should play that way. But if he ever ever want to be elite, he need to become a great midrange player.
If you ask me what kind of shot I prefer, I’ll say dunks and layups and open shots. Lol If that’s what you are trying to argue though. |
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JJin77
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Joined: 25 May 2016
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
BI, even with a 32% career 3pt, is more efficient from 3 pters than Chris Paul, SAm Cassell, Kobe, Rip Hamilton ever were from mid range. But you are advocating BI should master mid range to the whole new level in which no one has ever reached before, right? and this is because he has elite length and some skills that we haven't seen yet.
I mean, it makes sense.
BI only has to shoot closer to 60% or so to be as effecient from what he is shooting from behind the line this season at 38% already. Since we know he won't ever be elite 40% 3pt shooter, lets just develop him into 60% mid range grand master.
Forget about MJ, Kobe, KG, Dirk, KD, CP3. They couldn't even come near that 60% cause they don't got BI's elite length and skills. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| JJin77 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
BI, even with a 32% career 3pt, is more efficient from 3 pters than Chris Paul, SAm Cassell, Kobe, Rip Hamilton ever were from mid range. But you are advocating BI should master mid range to the whole new level in which no one has ever reached before, right? and this is because he has elite length and some skills that we haven't seen yet.
I mean, it makes sense.
BI only has to shoot closer to 60% or so to be as effecient from what he is shooting from behind the line this season at 38% already. Since we know he won't ever be elite 40% 3pt shooter, lets just develop him into 60% mid range grand master.
Forget about MJ, Kobe, KG, Dirk, KD, CP3. They couldn't even come near that 60% cause they don't got BI's elite length and skills. |
Lol about you hyperboling these FG%😂 and whatever extreme efficiency you can come up with. I have to say his though, if Ingram develop his post game and a fadeaway to boot, do you think the opposing defense will collapse on him. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
No, I think it has to do with basic math. Maybe MDA taught him to do basic algebra.
Chris Paul, elite midrange shooter: ~1.00 PPP
Chris Paul, above average 3 point shooter: ~1.19 PPP |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| PRLakeShow wrote: | | Giannis is the only obvious one that is better than Ingram. Brown and Tatum are maybes. Everyone else is a nope. I'm 100% sure that the other 29 GMs would trade those SFs for BI in half a second. |
\
I'd have Tatum ahead, but Jaylen below Ingram.
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| oldschool32 wrote: |
Thanks. Unfortunately my old ipad and nba.com don't play together so nicely anymore. |
No prob.
Check out bball ref, it isn't as granular and the numbers are estimated but it's better than nothing
e.g. Rip:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hamilri01.html
Ctrl+ F "Shooting" and you'll find it. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Jabari Parker (would have him higher but crazy injury prone)
Andrew Wiggins (volume dude)
O.J. Anunoby
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Justice Winslow (what on earth happened to this dude?)
Dillon Brooks
Jerami Grant
Wow, I have BI Top 3? I don't trust Wiggins to reach his full potential. Jaylen doesn't have BI's passing skills. Parker injury prone. The rest are quality role players.
Seriously?!?!?
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CRoost
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Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
No, I think it has to do with basic math. Maybe MDA taught him to do basic algebra.
Chris Paul, elite midrange shooter: ~1.00 PPP
Chris Paul, above average 3 point shooter: ~1.19 PPP |
Maybe but both of them still have 0 ring😂 |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Jabari Parker (would have him higher but crazy injury prone)
Andrew Wiggins (volume dude)
O.J. Anunoby
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Justice Winslow (what on earth happened to this dude?)
Dillon Brooks
Jerami Grant
Wow, I have BI Top 3? I don't trust Wiggins to reach his full potential. Jaylen doesn't have BI's passing skills. Parker injury prone. The rest are quality role players.
Seriously?!?!? |
Wiggins at 2
Ingram 3
Tatum 4
Jaylen 5 |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Jabari Parker (would have him higher but crazy injury prone)
Andrew Wiggins (volume dude)
O.J. Anunoby
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Justice Winslow (what on earth happened to this dude?)
Dillon Brooks
Jerami Grant
Wow, I have BI Top 3? I don't trust Wiggins to reach his full potential. Jaylen doesn't have BI's passing skills. Parker injury prone. The rest are quality role players.
Seriously?!?!? |
Wiggins at 2
Ingram 3
Tatum 4
Jaylen 5 |
I don't trust Wiggins' progression. I've seen more overall versatility out of Ingram than Wiggins, and we're just in year 2.
Tatum doesn't even have a full year under his belt. I think he earned that spot over Ingram. Frankly, the Lakers would have killed for Tatum type numbers last year out of Ingram.
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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 at Wiggins ahead of Ingram. |
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JJin77
Starting Rotation
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | JJin77 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
BI, even with a 32% career 3pt, is more efficient from 3 pters than Chris Paul, SAm Cassell, Kobe, Rip Hamilton ever were from mid range. But you are advocating BI should master mid range to the whole new level in which no one has ever reached before, right? and this is because he has elite length and some skills that we haven't seen yet.
I mean, it makes sense.
BI only has to shoot closer to 60% or so to be as effecient from what he is shooting from behind the line this season at 38% already. Since we know he won't ever be elite 40% 3pt shooter, lets just develop him into 60% mid range grand master.
Forget about MJ, Kobe, KG, Dirk, KD, CP3. They couldn't even come near that 60% cause they don't got BI's elite length and skills. |
Lol about you hyperboling these FG%😂 and whatever extreme efficiency you can come up with. I have to say his though, if Ingram develop his post game and a fadeaway to boot, do you think the opposing defense will collapse on him. |
LOL so you do realize its extreme efficiency, but somehow you fail to acknowledge that BI has to reach that ridiculous efficiency from mid range in order to match his current 38% from behind the line. You want BI to be elite mid range shooter and make it as his bread & butter? fine. but he won't be anything but elite player while being elite mid range shooter, unless he somehow reaches closer to 60% midrange shooter.
It's not an opinion nor hyperbol at all. It's a fact that BI need to be closer to be 60% mid range shooter to be as efficient just above 3 pt shooter.
shooter. As tox said, it is a simple math.
This Okafor vs Dlo debate all over again... |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Jabari Parker (would have him higher but crazy injury prone)
Andrew Wiggins (volume dude)
O.J. Anunoby
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Justice Winslow (what on earth happened to this dude?)
Dillon Brooks
Jerami Grant
Wow, I have BI Top 3? I don't trust Wiggins to reach his full potential. Jaylen doesn't have BI's passing skills. Parker injury prone. The rest are quality role players.
Seriously?!?!? |
Wiggins at 2
Ingram 3
Tatum 4
Jaylen 5 |
I don't trust Wiggins' progression. I've seen more overall versatility out of Ingram than Wiggins, and we're just in year 2.
Tatum doesn't even have a full year under his belt. I think he earned that spot over Ingram. Frankly, the Lakers would have killed for Tatum type numbers last year out of Ingram. |
I kinda expect his numbers gonna drop when Twolves added some offensive weapons .But he did good when Butler was out. Butler is just better option right now.
Tatum is well polish though offensively. That’s already given and I won’t argue if you have him ahead of Ingram right now. |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39542
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I would go
Giannis
Tatum
Ingram
Not a fan of Wiggins. He doesn't seem to make winning plays |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.
But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.
How'd that turn out?
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mookielala
Star Player
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Posts: 3026
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| It will be interesting to see how those players rank in 2 or 3 years. I don't watch enough non-Laker games to have a strong opinion, but, barring injury, I'm very optimistic BI is going to on another level by then. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mookielala wrote: | | It will be interesting to see how those players rank in 2 or 3 years. I don't watch enough non-Laker games to have a strong opinion, but, barring injury, I'm very optimistic BI is going to on another level by then. |
This is where I've learned just how far work ethic/focus/work habits around draft time help project out over an NBA player's career, even against more talented players by age.
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | at Wiggins ahead of Ingram. |
When I first saw that list, and read BigGameHermes act as if it would be absurd to believe BI was top 3 on that list, I lost it. It's basically a trash heap of who gives a (bleep) with Giannis, BI, Tatum, Brown, and RHJ |
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TheBlackMamba
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Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I don't normally like using the "it" factor as a reason to prop a player up or down, but if there was a such thing, Wiggins has absolutely zero of it. I just a see a guy with no killer instinct and dubious work ethic/passion for basketball. How else do you explain him having so, so much athletic talent and potential (physically, he's at least sniffing the Lebron stratosphere, right?) but looking like just another guy 4 years into his career?
Last edited by TheBlackMamba on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | at Wiggins ahead of Ingram. |
When I first saw that list, and read BigGameHermes act as if it would be absurd to believe BI was top 3 on that list, I lost it. It's basically a trash heap of who gives a (bleep) with Giannis, BI, Tatum, Brown, and RHJ |
I had to make a list for myself to see how it unfolds. I didn't even believe it.
There's a strong cut off at Wiggins on my list, and then it's basically studly role players.
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| JJin77 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | JJin77 wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | tox wrote: | | CRoost wrote: |
What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be. |
Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb. |
Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange. |
BI, even with a 32% career 3pt, is more efficient from 3 pters than Chris Paul, SAm Cassell, Kobe, Rip Hamilton ever were from mid range. But you are advocating BI should master mid range to the whole new level in which no one has ever reached before, right? and this is because he has elite length and some skills that we haven't seen yet.
I mean, it makes sense.
BI only has to shoot closer to 60% or so to be as effecient from what he is shooting from behind the line this season at 38% already. Since we know he won't ever be elite 40% 3pt shooter, lets just develop him into 60% mid range grand master.
Forget about MJ, Kobe, KG, Dirk, KD, CP3. They couldn't even come near that 60% cause they don't got BI's elite length and skills. |
Lol about you hyperboling these FG%😂 and whatever extreme efficiency you can come up with. I have to say his though, if Ingram develop his post game and a fadeaway to boot, do you think the opposing defense will collapse on him. |
LOL so you do realize its extreme efficiency, but somehow you fail to acknowledge that BI has to reach that ridiculous efficiency from mid range in order to match his current 38% from behind the line. You want BI to be elite mid range shooter and make it as his bread & butter? fine. but he won't be anything but elite player while being elite mid range shooter, unless he somehow reaches closer to 60% midrange shooter.
It's not an opinion nor hyperbol at all. It's a fact that BI need to be closer to be 60% mid range shooter to be as efficient just above 3 pt shooter.
shooter. As tox said, it is a simple math.
This Okafor vs Dlo debate all over again... |
Lol there’s so much basketball than just efficiency and math. He’s shooting like what 39% in his 3 ball right now, do you see defense collapsing on him beyond the arc? DeRozan is not even topping 50s and you still see defense collapsing on his mid range game. And there are great players who had their midrange game as their bread and butter that did even have over 45% career FG. Trying to argue that Ingram need to be at 60% to be elite is hyperbole. But whatever. |
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