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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject:

DeRozan added the 3ptr for a reason. What he did all of his previous years, wasn't working well enough for Toronto.
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CRoost
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


Too early to tell. Embiid might suffer a career ending injury anytime. But Embiid is definitely better sans injury.

You have a point though. I just think that Wiggins need the ball to be more effective. Defensively, I’m still perplex that he has not made that jump defensively now that he has lighter load.

With Ingram, I am thinking that his numbers will drop if we get a couple of game changers. But now that he started knocking those catch and shoot 3 ball, I think he can maintain his numbers.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


The only reason Embiid didn't go #1 that year was injury concerns. And those have born out to be true. As great as Embiid is, he still hasn't played 82 games in his career yet.

I think it worked out great for Cleveland considering I don't think you could trade an injured Embiid for Kevin Love in 2014.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
DeRozan added the 3ptr for a reason. What he did all of his previous years, wasn't working well enough for Toronto.


His midrange game made him elite but of course great players tend to add new wrinkles to their game every year.
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The Juggernaut
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


For the Cavs it turned into a championship in 2016. They snagged Kevin Love who is better than Wiggins will ever be.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject:

BI needs to play 16 feet in or beyond the arc. Needs to get rid of the long mid range game completely...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
BI needs to play 16 feet in or beyond the arc. Needs to get rid of the long mid range game completely...


He's actually much better at the long mid range than he is the short 3-10 ft range.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject:

defense wrote:
I would go

Giannis
Tatum
Ingram

Not a fan of Wiggins. He doesn't seem to make winning plays


Ingram ahead of Tatum. Ingram is more all around player
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


The only reason Embiid didn't go #1 that year was injury concerns. And those have born out to be true. As great as Embiid is, he still hasn't played 82 games in his career yet.

I think it worked out great for Cleveland considering I don't think you could trade an injured Embiid for Kevin Love in 2014.


I was on the same boat as thinking Embiid was the #1 guy. It's just so rare to see the injury prone guy accelerate his skill set so quickly against a "considered" elite wing that's healthy. Usually injuries stunt growth.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
DeRozan added the 3ptr for a reason. What he did all of his previous years, wasn't working well enough for Toronto.


His midrange game made him elite but of course great players tend to add new wrinkles to their game every year.


So he waited until his prime? Nah.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Jabari Parker (would have him higher but crazy injury prone)
Andrew Wiggins (volume dude)
O.J. Anunoby
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Justice Winslow (what on earth happened to this dude?)
Dillon Brooks
Jerami Grant

Wow, I have BI Top 3? I don't trust Wiggins to reach his full potential. Jaylen doesn't have BI's passing skills. Parker injury prone. The rest are quality role players.

Seriously?!?!?


Yeah, I would agree with that. I would trade BI for Tatum but not for Jaylen Brown or anyone else on the list except Giannis obviously. Rest are trash and yeah I consider Wiggins trash.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


For the Cavs it turned into a championship in 2016. They snagged Kevin Love who is better than Wiggins will ever be.


Not referencing the Cavs in any way, just prospects. I really can't emphasize enough how rare the injury prone player usually takes so much longer to recover, let alone improve skill set.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
JJin77 wrote:
CRoost wrote:
JJin77 wrote:
CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:

What’s silly about picking teams apart with his midrange. he has the tools to master the craft. He’s not like DLo who need screens to get off his shot. 😂 Lol with the numbers game. We are talking about potential here. The only way I can see him becoming elite is to be that player who’s smoothly putting buckets after buckets on the midrange making it look easy. I don’t think he’ll ever be elite shooter enough to do it on 3 ball nor extremely athletic or quick enough to just drive his way. Saying numbers don’t back it up is simply self limiting him as a player which is basically what you vision him to be.

Chirs Paul is one of the best midrange shooters ever and even he is eschewing it in favor of the 3 ball, when possible. Don't be dumb.


Lol don’t you think it has to do with his age and MDA system. And my comments is not for all the players but for Ingram with his elite length and his skills. The best way for him to be elite is to master that midrange.


BI, even with a 32% career 3pt, is more efficient from 3 pters than Chris Paul, SAm Cassell, Kobe, Rip Hamilton ever were from mid range. But you are advocating BI should master mid range to the whole new level in which no one has ever reached before, right? and this is because he has elite length and some skills that we haven't seen yet.
I mean, it makes sense.
BI only has to shoot closer to 60% or so to be as effecient from what he is shooting from behind the line this season at 38% already. Since we know he won't ever be elite 40% 3pt shooter, lets just develop him into 60% mid range grand master.

Forget about MJ, Kobe, KG, Dirk, KD, CP3. They couldn't even come near that 60% cause they don't got BI's elite length and skills.


Lol about you hyperboling these FG%😂 and whatever extreme efficiency you can come up with. I have to say his though, if Ingram develop his post game and a fadeaway to boot, do you think the opposing defense will collapse on him.


LOL so you do realize its extreme efficiency, but somehow you fail to acknowledge that BI has to reach that ridiculous efficiency from mid range in order to match his current 38% from behind the line. You want BI to be elite mid range shooter and make it as his bread & butter? fine. but he won't be anything but elite player while being elite mid range shooter, unless he somehow reaches closer to 60% midrange shooter.

It's not an opinion nor hyperbol at all. It's a fact that BI need to be closer to be 60% mid range shooter to be as efficient just above 3 pt shooter.
shooter. As tox said, it is a simple math.


This Okafor vs Dlo debate all over again...


Lol there’s so much basketball than just efficiency and math. He’s shooting like what 39% in his 3 ball right now, do you see defense collapsing on him beyond the arc? DeRozan is not even topping 50s and you still see defense collapsing on his mid range game. And there are great players who had their midrange game as their bread and butter that did even have over 45% career FG. Trying to argue that Ingram need to be at 60% to be elite is hyperbole. But whatever.


DeRozan collapsing defense with his mid range jumper???
You collapse defense with penetration, even post ups draw doubles, but you will be hard pressed to find defense collapsing to stop someone's mid range jumpshot. How often do you honestly see that? Sure, Kobe used to demand doubles/tripples every night, but it was usually when he posts up or even from outside of arch. One of very reason mid range jumper has been abandoned is how it can be contained/contested reletively well by sigle coverage. collapsing defense that was a good one. Why the hell would any coach would compromise their defense to stop the lowest efficient shot even for the best ones ever to do it?!?! They usually don't, b/c no one was ever efficient enough from that range to command such repect consistently.

And. Yes, 39% 3pt shooting BI with Volume(which is a main complain from many posters from this very thread) will collapse the defense. It's call the Gravity. It will allow him to attack hard close out which he was great at even from his miserable rookie season. It will open up an entire game for him and his teammates. It just collapses the defense outwardly not inwardly like you are used to seeing in 90s, 00s ball. You know Spacing is a thing now.

I find it ironic that ones often complain about post/posters in which basis their opinion on stats and facts and advocate actaul playing basketball/eye test/reality don't understand how basketball really works.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject:

I'd take oubre and rhj higher on that list Mike.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
BI needs to play 16 feet in or beyond the arc. Needs to get rid of the long mid range game completely...


He's actually much better at the long mid range than he is the short 3-10 ft range.

Being good at something that's not useful... doesn't make it a good thing. BI really needs to find the best spots on the floor and tailor his moves to get to those spots.

It's ok to shoot those long mid range shots once in a while when you're completely wide open. But to make a move to try and get those shots as one of the primary options isn't the right play at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
BI needs to play 16 feet in or beyond the arc. Needs to get rid of the long mid range game completely...


He's actually much better at the long mid range than he is the short 3-10 ft range.

Being good at something that's not useful... doesn't make it a good thing. BI really needs to find the best spots on the floor and tailor his moves to get to those spots.

It's ok to shoot those long mid range shots once in a while when you're completely wide open. But to make a move to try and get those shots as one of the primary options isn't the right play at all.


Yup. That's the only time anyone should shoot mid range shots. or when its the only shot available against shot clock.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject:

If the defense forces nearly anyone into a mid range shot, they've won the possession.

Sometimes the defense wins possessions.

It's good to have guys who can still get some value out of those possessions that the defense wins.

That's the value of having a good mid range game.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject:

That's a very interesting way to put it. So basketball strategy is becoming like Chess. It reminds me of football, if the Offense throws a checkdown pass, the defense wins, unless you have a special RB catching that checkdown, who can turn it into an 8 yard gain instead of basically nothing. Chess with outlier athletes breaking the game
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
That's a very interesting way to put it. So basketball strategy is becoming like Chess. It reminds me of football, if the Offense throws a checkdown pass, the defense wins, unless you have a special RB catching that checkdown, who can turn it into an 8 yard gain instead of basically nothing. Chess with outlier athletes breaking the game


Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Frankly, I'd love for them to move the 3PT line back about 3-4 feet (while widening the court) to bridge the gap between the value of a mid range shot and the 3PT shot a bit. I think it'd be more interesting basketball.

Also, part of what makes Golden State so gnarly is that now they have two of the only guys in the league where shooting a mid range shot is a good possession (KD & Steph) while still being killer from 3PT range. Hard to "win" a possession against them, defensively. Turning them over is probably your best bet.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
That's a very interesting way to put it. So basketball strategy is becoming like Chess. It reminds me of football, if the Offense throws a checkdown pass, the defense wins, unless you have a special RB catching that checkdown, who can turn it into an 8 yard gain instead of basically nothing. Chess with outlier athletes breaking the game


Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Frankly, I'd love for them to move the 3PT line back about 3-4 feet (while widening the court) to bridge the gap between the value of a mid range shot and the 3PT shot a bit. I think it'd be more interesting basketball.

Also, part of what makes Golden State so gnarly is that now they have two of the only guys in the league where shooting a mid range shot is a good possession (KD & Steph) while still being killer from 3PT range. Hard to "win" a possession against them, defensively. Turning them over is probably your best bet.


Excellent idea, especially with the players being bigger, stronger, faster as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject:

Steph shoots (bleep) 62.7% from 16 feet to the 3PT line and 55.6% from 10-16 feet.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject:

You should do an "Optimizing the Game" episode of your pod. Talk about rule changes you want, playoff/conference, draft.. You and Darius are great minds for that . Your 3pt line take needs more esssplaining! I need to here it. Very interesting
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^It's not the numbers. It's the efficiency. Like, if Butler is top dog on both ends of the floor, Wiggins gets easier assignments and should get easier shots.

But the shooting hasn't improved. His defense hasn't improved. The Wiggins/Embiid draft is the crazy, because the train of thought was, you draft the wing over the big, especially an injury prone one. You take MJ over Olajuwon (though it's close). You take Durant over Oden. So, CLE took Wiggins over Embiid.

How'd that turn out?


Well he was traded to Minni for Kevin Love which amassed Cleveland winning a Championship so. I guess you should ask Minni how trading Love for Wiggins worked out. Wiggins still has time though, as do all young players if they remain healthy.
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Last edited by MJST on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject:

RoyalPurple8 wrote:
Excellent idea, especially with the players being bigger, stronger, faster as well.


Yeah, I don't think people envisioned this when they adopted the 3PT line in 1979-80. Moving the line back 3-4 feet would increase the importance of bigs and mid range guys, and would allow different styles of teams to be contenders. Now, if you're not one of the better 3PT shooting teams in the league, you can forget about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:01 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
You should do an "Optimizing the Game" episode of your pod. Talk about rule changes you want, playoff/conference, draft.. You and Darius are great minds for that . Your 3pt line take needs more esssplaining! I need to here it. Very interesting


Haha, we did that last summer for a portion of one show, but maybe we could revisit that this year.
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