OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:18 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm not sure Grant Hill isn't his ceiling comp..... https://youtu.be/1LNFPdTAIU Chickybaby on the commentary
A modern Hill who's a 3pt threat

GHill liked the same kind of hesitation dribbles, simple passes but racked up assists. Preferred to drive, some midrange. 6'8


Grant Hill was a bad boy.. Above average in every facet of the game aside from 3pt shooting.. I'd be really happy with a 6'9 version of that with a 7'3 wingspan.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject:

It's interesting reading different discussions here about the more mental aspects of the game. I don't think people realize how 'effort' and 'having a motor' is for the most part a personality trait that's just innate in a lot of athletes. I've worked with over a thousand hoopers in my life ranging from college down to elementary school. There are people who just have that "Westbrook" ferocity in their aggressiveness or "Draymond" in their energy and some people who just don't. You can tell players to be a dog out there, but it's not natural to them.

The same way there are just some people who are more comfortable in public crowds, or confident talking to a random stranger, or are extroverts/introverts. Ball reflects life in many ways.

Now that doesn't mean you can't develop being mindful of your effort and intensity, but players have to be themselves. That being said, everyone should be expected to play hard. But there's different ways to show it. Klay Thompson and Leonard play super hard, but have a very calm demeanor and are pretty stoic but I'm a firm believer that the way someone plays on the court is a reflection of how they are off of it.
*I find though the motivation for most players to play hard if they aren't alpha competitive and in love with the game - is how much they like their team/coach. You can see why everyone on the Celtics plays really hard and why on some other teams with locker room issues they don't.

The trick is to get players to feel comfortable and confident being themselves on the court and finding ways to maximize their skill set.

As far as effort goes, I've found it stems for passion of competing. The more competitive the person's personality the greater the effort. There are a lot of guys who make the NBA and go on cruise control. They don't really love basketball, but they're hella tall and are good enough and are perfectly fine with making millions of dollars on cruise control.

What I like about this Laker team is that although they're all pretty chill dudes off the court which is definitely reflected in their demeanor on it... they do love basketball and are competitive. Are they the most competitive and passionate guys I've seen? No. But that doesn't bother me...
(Note: Don't think people realize how unique that Thunder team w/ KD, Rusty, and Harden was. Not because their talent, but those guys are hoopers to the core. I know from people in the circle that all they do since they were rookies is just hoop. In the summer every day, find a gym wherever. They love basketball and although I hated watching them beat our Lakers - I respected these young kids who just were coming for everyone like they wanted to run the court in some park.)

Anyways, I was not economical with this post as it's probably a few paragraphs too long haha, but the three mental things imo that lead to success and progress (which Kobe had) are Passion (love the game), Competitiveness (Hate losing, Love winning), and Curiosity (wanting to learn). Usually it leads to a great work ethic and those traits amount to a solid mixed (bleep) of qualities to have for a player reaching his potential.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:32 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm not sure Grant Hill isn't his ceiling comp..... https://youtu.be/1LNFPdTAIU Chickybaby on the commentary
A modern Hill who's a 3pt threat

GHill liked the same kind of hesitation dribbles, simple passes but racked up assists. Preferred to drive, some midrange. 6'8


Grant Hill was a bad boy.. Above average in every facet of the game aside from 3pt shooting.. I'd be really happy with a 6'9 version of that with a 7'3 wingspan.


I was meaning more of a straight up comp than a Grant Hill++attributes. Like BI needs his better measurables to play like Hill.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm not sure Grant Hill isn't his ceiling comp..... https://youtu.be/1LNFPdTAIU Chickybaby on the commentary
A modern Hill who's a 3pt threat

GHill liked the same kind of hesitation dribbles, simple passes but racked up assists. Preferred to drive, some midrange. 6'8


Grant Hill was a bad boy.. Above average in every facet of the game aside from 3pt shooting.. I'd be really happy with a 6'9 version of that with a 7'3 wingspan.


I was meaning more of a straight up comp than a Grant Hill++attributes. Like BI needs his better measurables to play like Hill.


He's only 20, I wouldn't say he needs them just yet.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject:

Quote:


"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"


*looks at De'Anthony Melton, Jaren Jackson Jr, Josh Okogie, as a draft prospect*

Big difference between engagement, motor, and effort.

Engagement deals with proactive awareness.

Motor deals with the amount of activity within a specific time frame or specific skill.

Effort, deals with 1 specific act. A long string of repeated efforts for defensive details reflects on defensive motor overall, but a player can't actually act on it without being engaged, or aware of the situation.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.


Do you guys not understand how the human body works?? lol..

You can't take any action unless it is first directed by your brain, this is common sense guys lol..
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:


"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"


*looks at De'Anthony Melton, Jaren Jackson Jr, Josh Okogie, as a draft prospect*

Big difference between engagement, motor, and effort.

Engagement deals with proactive awareness.

Motor deals with the amount of activity within a specific time frame or specific skill.

Effort, deals with 1 specific act. A long string of repeated efforts for defensive details reflects on defensive motor overall, but a player can't actually act on it without being engaged, or aware of the situation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject:

Hope he makes an even bigger jump next year with Brown actualizing his potential.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.


Do you guys not understand how the human body works?? lol..

You can't take any action unless it is first directed by your brain, this is common sense guys lol..


You are in no place to take a deaminging tone with the absolutely asinine stuff you’ve been spewing over the last few pages.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.


Do you guys not understand how the human body works?? lol..

You can't take any action unless it is first directed by your brain, this is common sense guys lol..


You are in no place to take a deaminging tone with the absolutely asinine stuff you’ve been spewing over the last few pages.


I mean you're the one who said I'm out of touch with reality just because I think he has potential to be a 25ppg scorer and backed it up with basic ppg per 36 (without mentioning age or shot attempts) while having to make justifications for 3/8 players you listed that had lower ppg Ingram

I don't see how anything he said is asinine, we're discussing a 20 year old prospect. I mean unless you're a time traveller or something
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Endless3D wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.


Do you guys not understand how the human body works?? lol..

You can't take any action unless it is first directed by your brain, this is common sense guys lol..


You are in no place to take a deaminging tone with the absolutely asinine stuff you’ve been spewing over the last few pages.


I mean you're the one who said I'm out of touch with reality just because I think he has potential to be a 25ppg scorer and backed it up with basic ppg per 36 (without mentioning age or shot attempts) while having to make justifications for 3/8 players you listed that had lower ppg Ingram

I don't see how anything he said is asinine, we're discussing a 20 year old prospect. I mean unless you're a time traveller or something


Yes I did do that. Now back to the discussion at hand.

Saying effort and focus aren’t related is asinine.

Hope that was more clear.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
I don't think these or Opp FG% are particularly good stats, especially the off ball stuff, but here's Ingram's Synergy overview for the year. (defense)

https://i.imgur.com/9isIxVx.png


That is why a 1-4 defensive combination of Lonzo, George, Ingram, Randle

would be so scary for another team to have to deal with trying to score against.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..


Effort directs your brain to focus and recognize what’s going on.


Do you guys not understand how the human body works?? lol..

You can't take any action unless it is first directed by your brain, this is common sense guys lol..


You are in no place to take a deaminging tone with the absolutely asinine stuff you’ve been spewing over the last few pages.


I would love.. I mean absolutely love for you to put in quotes for me anything I have said that could be characterized as "asinine".. Pretty please put it in quotes for me.

I was actually embarrassed for you and KIROE, you have no idea how absurd the things you're saying are. But anyway please put in quotes for me, anything I've said that's asinine.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject:

we need the mute button here lol
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject:

"Effort directs your brain".. I wan't you to really think about what you're saying lol.

Me and you hardly ever agree on anything, nor do we get along all that well. So I would expect you to enter the thread and agree with KIROE on something that made no sense, simply because it's in opposition to what I'm saying.

Probably best if we just agree to disagree, and save yourself even more embarrassment.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
"Effort directs your brain".. I wan't you to really think about what you're saying lol.

Me and you hardly ever agree on anything, nor do we get along all that well. So I would expect you to enter the thread and agree with KIROE on something that made no sense, simply because it's in opposition to what I'm saying.

Probably best if we just agree to disagree, and save yourself even more embarrassment.


You have to put out effort to focus on something. Focusing on something is directing your brain to think specifically about whatever you are focusing on.

I didn’t realize we had a strained relationship and I don’t agree with anybody just to spite anybody else. Don’t flatter yourself.

Thanks for the tip but I’m good.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject:

Yea I don't know where we go in this convo if you actually believe that "effort directs your brain".. Focus is a cognitive exercise, not physical. Effort is an action dictated by thought.

You've got it backwards.. but we can agree to disagree. And as expected, not a single quote of anything I've said that one could characterize as "asinine".
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I don't know where we go in this convo if you actually believe that "effort directs your brain".. Focus is a cognitive exercise, not physical. Effort is an action dictated by thought.

You've got it backwards.. but we can agree to disagree. And as expected, not a single quote of anything I've said that one could characterize as "asinine".


Don’t mistake a lack of desire for a lack of ability.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject:

You made a claim that you cant substantiate. I'm not going to accuse you of making silly statements without having quotes to back what I'm saying. As I said before, you won't be able to quote me on anything I've said that's asinine. In the future when addressing me, if you make any such claims be prepared to back it with something.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Can't believe this debate has lasted this long
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject:

I feel actually ashamed that I was a part of it..

Last edited by SocalDevin on Sun May 13, 2018 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
You made a claim that you cant substantiate. I'm not going to accuse you of making silly statements without having quotes to back what I'm saying. As I said before, you won't be able to quote me on anything I've said that's asinine. In the future when addressing me, if you make any such claims be prepared to back it with something.


My claim is backed by the previous pages. No need to hand out the spark notes IMO.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject:

I still think it's just an engagement issue. It's not that he doesn't DESIRE or WANT to improve defensively, but when guys lapse, it's like the neurons aren't even firing for those tenths of a second.

Total lack of engagement.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I still think it's just an engagement issue. It's not that he doesn't DESIRE or WANT to improve defensively, but when guys lapse, it's like the neurons aren't even firing for those tenths of a second.

Total lack of engagement.


Yep.. Totally agree.
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