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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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@ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
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AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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lakerz32 wrote: | Off/random topic
but man its crazy how young Ingram is, he is still just 20 years old. and just turns 21 in September. Then factor in his current production in year 2, and his tremendous rate of growth/development.
ingram is a year younger than Donovan Mitchell, Simmons, and jayelin brown
7 months younger than josh Jackson (who will turn 22 during the season)
Ingram is still the same age as Tatum (6 months difference)
man, I just think its crazy, the media/fan perception, in terms of trade talks for a star player like kawhi. from the boston side, jayelin brown and Tatum is absolutely untouchable, and if just one of them was on the table, the spurs would take that offer and run. then the rest of the media/fans, nods along, thinking yup that makes sense
now onto the lakers, people say we would have to give up a minimum of Ingram and kuzma, because Ingram isn't nearly enough, and even than the spurs would take it begrudgingly and would need sweetners.like hart and picks
Sorry for the rant, just something that always irked me, mostly when you factor ingram's age, elite length, current production, and rate of development/work ethic. people talk as if brown is this sure-fire can't miss star prospect, while Ingram is just this kinda meh, maybe a rotation/starter level prospect
Rant over |
Yeah, the media is laughing that we won’t give up Ingram up for Kawhi. I’m sorry, but Ingram will be a serious regret if he’s anywhere near his potential. And I think the FO is well aware of that. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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sonic the laker wrote: | Not big into differentials, as there are multiple factors that play into +/-'s, other than "plus mean he guud, minus mean he bad". Differentials are a piece in a puzzle, as opposed to a stand alone indicator. When Lonzo went down, B.I. played more than admirably well at the point position, and the team did very well.
That said, I do think Zo gets lost in the shuffle a bit, because of his offensive obstacles. I definitely see him as a starter, but I'm glad he has Rondo there to mentor him, and push him to be better. |
That's correct, they are not a stand alone indicator. But what about when almost all of the indicators point in the same direction?
RPM
1) Lonzo Ball................+0.89
2) Josh Hart..................-0.92
3) Kyle Kuzma...............-1.65
4) Brandon Ingram.........-1.99
BPM
1) Lonzo Ball..................+1.6
2) Josh Hart....................-0.4
3) Brandon Ingram...........-1.3
4) Kyle Kuzma.................-1.4
On Court/Off Court (Net Rating)
1) Lonzo Ball..................+1.4
2) Josh Hart....................-0.8
3) Kyle Kuzma.................-1.1
4) Brandon Ingram...........-3.0
VORP
1) Lonzo Ball..................+1.6
2) Josh Hart...................+0.6
3) Kyle Kuzma................+0.4
4) Brandon Ingram..........+0.3
PIPM
1) Lonzo Ball.................+1.89
2) Josh Hart...................-0.99
3) Brandon Ingram..........-1.31
4) Kyle Kuzma................-1.88
Wins Added
1) Lonzo Ball.................+5.06
2) Brandon Ingram........+1.34
3) Josh Hart..................+1.25
4) Kyle Kuzma...............+0.73
Last edited by GoldenThroat on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Drunk Lebron James in Funky $500 shorts stood up and gave BI a hug. That pretty much says it all right there. |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
Rondo starting over Lonzo is not about him not being a good player. I am a fan. My suggestion is based off not rushing him back after knee surgery. Even with his sometimes jumper and poor finishes at the rim ...I know the positive impact he has on our team, GT. HE has the "gift" the gift that Kidd, Magic, Lebron, Larry and of course Magic had. wont do us any good if he is hurt though. Why would we rush back a player who was injured at the end of his UCLA run and his rookie year as well?
For this Laker team how we finish the year is more important than how we start it. That is why I said "early" in the post you quoted. IF hart and Especially Lonzo prove they deserve to start, they will or at least should.
Luke made Randle earn a starting spot why shouldn't Lonzo, Kuzma and Hart be treated the same?
Only sure starter besides Lebron should be Ingram. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Killakobe81 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
Rondo starting over Lonzo is not about him not being a good player. I am a fan. My suggestion is based off not rushing him back after knee surgery. Even with his sometimes jumper and poor finishes at the rim ...I know the positive impact he has on our team, GT. HE has the "gift" the gift that Kidd, Magic, Lebron, Larry and of course Magic had. wont do us any good if he is hurt though. Why would we rush back a player who was injured at the end of his UCLA run and his rookie year as well?
For this Laker team how we finish the year is more important than how we start it. That is why I said "early" in the post you quoted. IF hart and Especially Lonzo prove they deserve to start, they will or at least should.
Luke made Randle earn a starting spot why shouldn't Lonzo, Kuzma and Hart be treated the same?
Only sure starter besides Lebron should be Ingram. |
Why shouldn't Ingram be treated the same? The notion that Ingram has earned a starting spot while others - especially Lonzo - haven't is difficult to argue IMO, both statistically and in terms of game tape. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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@GT In spite of all of those numbers you posted.. there aren't too many analysts that would value Ball over Kuz or Ingram. I've yet to hear or see a single article where an analyst or pundit would list Ball above those two.
I do understand that not all tv and print analysts are credible, but many are.. and many have actually played at a professional level. Are they all wrong?
I do believe Ball is undervalued, but I can understand why Kuz, and Ingram are perceived to have more value.
Data would have suggested Russell was a better prospect than Ingram, yet no one would have told you he was. Maybe a few outside of LG. |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Also when I put Lonzo as the backup ...I implied if he outplays Rondo and wins the starting job that would be ideal. That means he is healthy and has shown enough to Luke that him starting over Rondo gives us the best chance to win.
again I know you used my message to get that off your chest but I am a Bruin Alumni I have more invested in Lonzo than most of this board. I just want him healthy which he hasn't been since before the Kentucky game in the NCAA's. |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
Rondo starting over Lonzo is not about him not being a good player. I am a fan. My suggestion is based off not rushing him back after knee surgery. Even with his sometimes jumper and poor finishes at the rim ...I know the positive impact he has on our team, GT. HE has the "gift" the gift that Kidd, Magic, Lebron, Larry and of course Magic had. wont do us any good if he is hurt though. Why would we rush back a player who was injured at the end of his UCLA run and his rookie year as well?
For this Laker team how we finish the year is more important than how we start it. That is why I said "early" in the post you quoted. IF hart and Especially Lonzo prove they deserve to start, they will or at least should.
Luke made Randle earn a starting spot why shouldn't Lonzo, Kuzma and Hart be treated the same?
Only sure starter besides Lebron should be Ingram. |
Why shouldn't Ingram be treated the same? The notion that Ingram has earned a starting spot while others - especially Lonzo - haven't is difficult to argue IMO, both statistically and in terms of game tape. |
I would be okay with that too but I won't lie some of it is "need". We really need a big year from Ingram. Some of it is because Lebron needs an elite "wingman" to alleviate pressure. Besides we dont have another "true" SF on the roster. Kuzma shoed he can play the role well when Ingram was out but he was most effective as a combo forward. Small ball PF/Big lineup SF. |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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lakerz32 wrote: | Off/random topic
but man its crazy how young Ingram is, he is still just 20 years old. and just turns 21 in September. Then factor in his current production in year 2, and his tremendous rate of growth/development.
ingram is a year younger than Donovan Mitchell, Simmons, and jayelin brown
7 months younger than josh Jackson (who will turn 22 during the season)
Ingram is still the same age as Tatum (6 months difference)
man, I just think its crazy, the media/fan perception, in terms of trade talks for a star player like kawhi. from the boston side, jayelin brown and Tatum is absolutely untouchable, and if just one of them was on the table, the spurs would take that offer and run. then the rest of the media/fans, nods along, thinking yup that makes sense
now onto the lakers, people say we would have to give up a minimum of Ingram and kuzma, because Ingram isn't nearly enough, and even than the spurs would take it begrudgingly and would need sweetners.like hart and picks
Sorry for the rant, just something that always irked me, mostly when you factor ingram's age, elite length, current production, and rate of development/work ethic. people talk as if brown is this sure-fire can't miss star prospect, while Ingram is just this kinda meh, maybe a rotation/starter level prospect
Rant over |
Agree 100%. |
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Number 7 Starting Rotation
Joined: 27 Nov 2015 Posts: 953 Location: Greece
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | sonic the laker wrote: | Not big into differentials, as there are multiple factors that play into +/-'s, other than "plus mean he guud, minus mean he bad". Differentials are a piece in a puzzle, as opposed to a stand alone indicator. When Lonzo went down, B.I. played more than admirably well at the point position, and the team did very well.
That said, I do think Zo gets lost in the shuffle a bit, because of his offensive obstacles. I definitely see him as a starter, but I'm glad he has Rondo there to mentor him, and push him to be better. |
That's correct, they are not a stand alone indicator. But what about when almost all of the indicators point in the same direction?
*edited for size* |
Isn't Ball's statistical edge a result of him playing an integral position with a lot of ballhandling/passing? I do agree though that he's better than people think and more impactful. |
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oldlakerfan Star Player
Joined: 15 May 2001 Posts: 2146 Location: Tega Cay, South Carolina
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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What is the mentality of BI versus ZO.
Both are extremely talented and the future of the team. Both will probably improve a lot his season. Zo may not make quite as big a leap in the beginning of the season as he is limited by the injury.
Both guys need to stay healthy. Their games compliment each other and Lebron. We should all be excited to have them both along with Hart and Kuzma too. If you want to complain it should be about not retaining Randle who played better than any of the other young guys. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Judah wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
Careful, the Ingram crowd has been vicious lately. |
LaVar: Zo is better than Steph!
Everyone else: That is absurd.
LaVar: You is just a sensitive Steph fan!
If you haven't figured it out, you're LaVar in this exchange. |
Comparing what I say about Ingram to that proves just how wrong you are. Regardless...
Neva Lost |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
Careful, the Ingram crowd has been vicious lately. |
That's an outright lie.. we call you out on ridiculous takes. I wouldn't characterize that as vicious. |
They aren’t ridiculous |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
Let's not conflate, or muddle the argument. He said he wasn't an insider, we both know that has nothing to do with him saying Ingram worked hard, let's not pretend like you believe those two things are related. They clearly aren't. So yes, it was an absurd thing to say. |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
Let's not conflate, or muddle the argument. He said he wasn't an insider, we both know that has nothing to do with him saying Ingram worked hard, let's not pretend like you believe those two things are related. They clearly aren't. So yes, it was an absurd thing to say. |
Dont give him anymore effort, dude is clearly an Ingram hater. Literally everyone involved with the Lakers has said BI works hard and is a gym rat. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
I'm not an insider in terms of BREAKING NEWS or anything, but I am at the facility as often as any media member, so I can at least speak to who's there working on their games after practice. Ingram certainly does that, although I don't think his work ethic is considered to be remarkable relative to the other young guys. I think they're all perceived around the facility as hard workers. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
I'm not an insider in terms of <b>BREAKING NEWS</b> or anything, but I am at the facility as often as any media member, so I can at least speak to who's there working on their games after practice. Ingram certainly does that, although I don't think his work ethic is considered to be remarkable relative to the other young guys. I think they're all perceived around the facility as hard workers. |
That’s exactly what I was saying. I poorly worded one post of many and they jumped on me for it. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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That shouldn't have needed an explanation, common sense would lead anyone that's being reasonable to that conclusion. So if one doesn't you have to question why. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Not true, you doubled down.. I can go get the quotes for you if you'd like. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | @GT In spite of all of those numbers you posted.. there aren't too many analysts that would value Ball over Kuz or Ingram. I've yet to hear or see a single article where an analyst or pundit would list Ball above those two.
I do understand that not all tv and print analysts are credible, but many are.. and many have actually played at a professional level. Are they all wrong?
I do believe Ball is undervalued, but I can understand why Kuz, and Ingram are perceived to have more value.
Data would have suggested Russell was a better prospect than Ingram, yet no one would have told you he was. Maybe a few outside of LG. |
It remains to be seen if this is one of those instances, but the consensus of analysts are wrong on a pretty regular basis, including former players. The people who I listen to are in and around the team, and I know for a fact that the organization's opinion of Lonzo is much higher than media or fan perception, and even more so for Kuzma.
I can also tell you that the media who cover the Lakers specifically ADORE Ingram. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @GT In spite of all of those numbers you posted.. there aren't too many analysts that would value Ball over Kuz or Ingram. I've yet to hear or see a single article where an analyst or pundit would list Ball above those two.
I do understand that not all tv and print analysts are credible, but many are.. and many have actually played at a professional level. Are they all wrong?
I do believe Ball is undervalued, but I can understand why Kuz, and Ingram are perceived to have more value.
Data would have suggested Russell was a better prospect than Ingram, yet no one would have told you he was. Maybe a few outside of LG. |
It remains to be seen if this is one of those instances, but the consensus of analysts are wrong on a pretty regular basis, including former players. The people who I listen to are in and around the team, and I know for a fact that the organization's opinion of Lonzo is much higher than media or fan perception, and even more so for Kuzma. |
That's music to my ears.. I suppose that really is all that matters. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
Let's not conflate, or muddle the argument. He said he wasn't an insider, we both know that has nothing to do with him saying Ingram worked hard, let's not pretend like you believe those two things are related. They clearly aren't. So yes, it was an absurd thing to say. |
Dont give him anymore effort, dude is clearly an Ingram hater. Literally everyone involved with the Lakers has said BI works hard and is a gym rat. |
I think Ingram is a great prospect. 2nd best prospect on the team. I don’t think there is any proof he’s the hardest worker on the team and I poorly worded a statement saying that one time. Then I’ve been ridiculed and called names ever since. I also said he hasn’t been a positive impact over the course of a season yet. That’s a fact. Quite frankly, the lengths people go to on here to twist my words regarding Ingram and to devalue my basketball opinion is sad. Me thinking less of Ingram than you all shouldn’t bother you so much. I’m not a hater. I don’t think he doesn’t work hard. I just don’t think he’s an outlier hard worker or a future superstar. Totally fair takes. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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My impression is that the biggest internal concern about Lonzo is his health, not his game. |
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