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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | My impression is that the biggest internal concern about Lonzo is his health, not his game. |
I know It's Ingram's thread but while you're here and we're talking about Ball..
I'd like your thoughts on how Ball works with Bron, I know I may be in the minority on this view but I believe Bron benefits more from playing with Ball, than Ball playing with Bron.
Will you be doing a more in depth break down of those two anytime soon? |
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Killakobe81 Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 1604
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @GT In spite of all of those numbers you posted.. there aren't too many analysts that would value Ball over Kuz or Ingram. I've yet to hear or see a single article where an analyst or pundit would list Ball above those two.
I do understand that not all tv and print analysts are credible, but many are.. and many have actually played at a professional level. Are they all wrong?
I do believe Ball is undervalued, but I can understand why Kuz, and Ingram are perceived to have more value.
Data would have suggested Russell was a better prospect than Ingram, yet no one would have told you he was. Maybe a few outside of LG. |
It remains to be seen if this is one of those instances, but the consensus of analysts are wrong on a pretty regular basis, including former players. The people who I listen to are in and around the team, and I know for a fact that the organization's opinion of Lonzo is much higher than media or fan perception, and even more so for Kuzma.
I can also tell you that the media who cover the Lakers specifically ADORE Ingram. |
That is good to hear. IF healthy only guy I am taking over Zo from last year's draft is Tatum. I felt that way before the draft and feel that way still. But hope that Zo proves me wrong...and that includes Kuzma and Mitchell.
Mitchell is amazing and Kuzma looks to be pointed up ...but a pass first PG that plays defense and is a great rebounder? And if ZO improves his jumper and Kuz is 80/90% of what Tatum is then we absolutely made the right choice no matter what Mitchell does in Utah. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | Not true, you doubled down.. I can go get the quotes for you if you'd like. |
Yes to rile you up. I admitted that. And clearly it worked. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | My impression is that the biggest internal concern about Lonzo is his health, not his game. |
I know It's Ingram's thread but while you're here and we're talking about Ball..
I'd like your thoughts on how Ball works with Bron, I know I may be in the minority on this view but I believe Bron benefits more from playing with Ball, than Ball playing with Bron.
Will you be doing a more in depth break down of those two anytime soon? |
I'm doing a piece for The Athletic (that I am currently procrastinating on by writing this post, in fact ) about the fit between LeBron, Lonzo, & Rondo. I don't think there's every been 3 guys on the same team who were in the Top 10 in assists the year before, so I'm trying to figure out what "type" of assists each guy gets and how they all fit together.
I did a short video on how LeBron & Lonzo would fit together for Silver Screen & Roll, but I only get 2 minutes on those so it's not as in depth. Here's a link.
In my experience, theoretical pieces are less conducive to video. The greatest value of video over text is the ability to say "LOOK, SEE FOR YOURSELF", and you obviously can't do that if the footage doesn't exist yet.
I agree with you to some extent, that Lonzo will lessen the need for LeBron to have to bear the burden of creating as often. But I do think that LeBron will put Lonzo in the position of having to run a high ball screen less often, and Lonzo will benefit from that. |
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mookielala Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 Posts: 3026
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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BigGameHames wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | @ BigGame Also would like to remind you that you said GT wasn't a reliable source, in regards to Ingram working hard.
Were we vicious when we defended him against that statement? |
Yes. He’s very knowledgeable about the game but not an insider by his own admission. It’s vicious when I get called an idiot for having a differing opinion and when I get singled out and ganged up on. Don’t worry, I can handle it. |
I'm not an insider in terms of <b><b>BREAKING NEWS</b></b> or anything, but I am at the facility as often as any media member, so I can at least speak to who's there working on their games after practice. Ingram certainly does that, although I don't think his work ethic is considered to be remarkable relative to the other young guys. I think they're all perceived around the facility as hard workers. |
That’s exactly what I was saying. I poorly worded one post of many and they jumped on me for it. |
I think BI's effort was considered remarkable in his first year and he helped set the culture. THat's what the articles were indicating, anyway. A switch from the previous Swaggy/DLO kind of feel. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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@BigGame..
"GT is a fantastic basketball mind and I love the content he produces but not a reliable source in this situation IMO. He’s either following BI around(he’s not) or he’s getting his info from Lakers sources such as teammates and staff. "
"he’s far from a proven hard worker IMO"
SocalDevin wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
"GT isn't a reliable source".. I think that pretty much say's it all lol.. Leave it alone guys, you can't reason with him.
BigGame
Why is that unreasonable? He’s admittedly not an insider.
Me
Is he admittedly an unreliable source?
BigGame
No he’s an unreliable source because he gets his info from Lakers staff who I deem unreliable because of bias. Pretty simple concept that I’ve repeated multiple times. |
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sonic the laker Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 2059
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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BigGameHames wrote: |
I think Ingram is a great prospect. 2nd best prospect on the team. I don’t think there is any proof he’s the hardest worker on the team and I poorly worded a statement saying that one time. Then I’ve been ridiculed and called names ever since. I also said he hasn’t been a positive impact over the course of a season yet. That’s a fact. Quite frankly, the lengths people go to on here to twist my words regarding Ingram and to devalue my basketball opinion is sad. Me thinking less of Ingram than you all shouldn’t bother you so much. I’m not a hater. I don’t think he doesn’t work hard. I just don’t think he’s an outlier hard worker or a future superstar. Totally fair takes. |
You're entitled to your opinions, however I admit that I do disagree with your assessment of Ingram. I'm curious what leads you to believe that B.I. hasn't had a positive impact on the Lakers, so far. Can you explain your reasoning? _________________ ZOOM!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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1) Every "source" has an agenda. That isn't necessarily nefarious, it's just that everyone who shares something wants to frame information a certain way.
2) I'd be a damn fool to get all of my information from Lakers staff who just wants to blow smoke up my ass about how great things are.
3) I've seen the post-practice and pre-game work that Ingram (and other guys) put in with my own eyes.
4) A lot of people like to talk and share what they know. If I hear something from one person, I'll note it but I won't run with it. If I hear the same thing from several different people, I'll start to put stock into it. For example, if you were following me, you know I was banging the "Lakers like Svi Mykhailiuk" drum before the draft. I wouldn't have been saying that if I heard that from just ONE person or a couple of people in the exact same role. Word was out there from a few different perspectives on that.
5) I don't create content around rumors, so if I share information it's a small way of saying "thank you" to my friends online who have gotten me to the point where I am and for having my back. Hell, I had several different people telling me LeBron was 100% coming to the Lakers, and I never ran with that in a way that I could monetize it. If I'm not gonna try to profit off of THAT, I'm not gonna profit off of anything in that area. I say all of that to say that when I share info, it's because that's genuinely what I've heard and nothing more. (it also doesn't mean it's the whole truth, just what I'm privy to) |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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^ Thank you, sir. |
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Luminous8 Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017 Posts: 2192
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
We played our best stretch of ball with BI at point. |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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BigGameHames wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | Not true, you doubled down.. I can go get the quotes for you if you'd like. |
Yes to rile you up. I admitted that. And clearly it worked. |
Definitely didn't rile me up buddy.. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Luminous8 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
We played our best stretch of ball with BI at point. |
We did not. We went 7-3 during a stretch that included wins against 4 actively tanking teams (Phoenix, Dallas, Sacramento, & Atlanta) and a win against Brooklyn as well. The team played its best ball of the season in January. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144412 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | My impression is that the biggest internal concern about Lonzo is his health, not his game. |
That is the only thing that I worry about. That and maybe him giving up on his shot when it isn't falling, if he gets a good look he needs to shoot that thing.
With Ingram I think that my main worry is involvement, he still disappeared at times last season when he wasn't involved. Luke was smart and gave him the job of creating which forced him to remain involved and that worked. I fear having too many wanting the ball this season and hope that when he isn't getting the ball, Ingram continues to remain involved. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Last edited by venturalakersfan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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24Legend007 Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018 Posts: 1789
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Didnt Brandon make most if not all of his threes off catch and shoots last season. Just watched a video of his 100 or so 3's made last season and I can't remember seeing him take dribble? |
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sonic the laker Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 2059
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Luminous8 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
We played our best stretch of ball with BI at point. |
We did not. We went 7-3 during a stretch that included wins against 4 actively tanking teams (Phoenix, Dallas, Sacramento, & Atlanta) and a win against Brooklyn as well. The team played its best ball of the season in January. |
Let's be fair, GT. If we're talking about that stretch in February, the Lakers played really good, competitive ball. They beat OKC twice, and the only blowout loss was against the Pels. I'm not putting Ingram over Zo, at point, but I'm not going to say he didn't do a commendable job while Zo was out, either. _________________ ZOOM!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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sonic the laker wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Luminous8 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Killakobe81 wrote: | Lakers at least early should start:
PG Rondo (Lonzo if he outplays him that's even better)
SG KCP (See above but with Josh Hart)
SF Ingram
PF Lebron
C MCgee
6th Kuzma
7th Lonzo
8th Hart
9th Lance
10th Zubac |
Man, is Lonzo criminally underrated around here. The team was better with him on the court vs. off of it to a greater extent than any other player in the rotation last season (+1.4 points per 100 possessions). By comparison, Ingram had the worst differential. (-3.0 points per 100 possessions)
There are a dozen other stats that illustrate the same thing. Lonzo already plays winning basketball, man. |
We played our best stretch of ball with BI at point. |
We did not. We went 7-3 during a stretch that included wins against 4 actively tanking teams (Phoenix, Dallas, Sacramento, & Atlanta) and a win against Brooklyn as well. The team played its best ball of the season in January. |
Let's be fair, GT. If we're talking about that stretch in February, the Lakers played really good, competitive ball. They beat OKC twice, and the only blowout loss was against the Pels. I'm not putting Ingram over Zo, at point, but I'm not going to say he didn't do a commendable job while Zo was out, either. |
He did do a commendable job at PG. That wasn't the topic of discussion. He replied to a fact (that Ingram's on/off numbers were the worst on the team of anyone who was in the rotation) with the assertion that the Lakers played their best basketball of the season with him at PG, which I don't think is the case. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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24Legend007 wrote: | Didnt Brandon make most if not all of his threes off catch and shoots last season. Just watched a video of his 100 or so 3's made last season and I can't remember seeing him take dribble? |
He made four 3's off of the dribble last season. |
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24Legend007 Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018 Posts: 1789
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | 24Legend007 wrote: | Didnt Brandon make most if not all of his threes off catch and shoots last season. Just watched a video of his 100 or so 3's made last season and I can't remember seeing him take dribble? |
He made four 3's off of the dribble last season. |
Hey man. How do you think Brandon is going to be this year? I think you have not been completely sold, understandably so. I think that was more at the beginning of last season though?
I think he has the potential to really take a leap this year. The court and room will look alot bigger this year with James on the court. |
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mookielala Star Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 Posts: 3026
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think valuing Rondo's potential contribution means Zo is criminally underrated on this board. there are still a lot of basic half court PG skills that he doesn't seem to have. that's why he didn't have the ball at the end of many games. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144412 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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mookielala wrote: | i don't think valuing Rondo's potential contribution means Zo is criminally underrated on this board. there are still a lot of basic half court PG skills that he doesn't seem to have. that's why he didn't have the ball at the end of many games. |
Sure, if the skill he lacked was making FTs. That is why we couldn't have him in at the end of games. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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24Legend007 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | 24Legend007 wrote: | Didnt Brandon make most if not all of his threes off catch and shoots last season. Just watched a video of his 100 or so 3's made last season and I can't remember seeing him take dribble? |
He made four 3's off of the dribble last season. |
Hey man. How do you think Brandon is going to be this year? I think you have not been completely sold, understandably so. I think that was more at the beginning of last season though?
I think he has the potential to really take a leap this year. The court and room will look alot bigger this year with James on the court. |
I think Ingram may be a bit of a clunky fit in the half court offense, but I think he's absolutely going to destroy teams in transition and early offense situations. One of the things that I've noticed from doing the research on this LeBron + Rondo + Lonzo piece that I'm working on is that Rondo is similar to Lonzo in that the majority of his assists are outside of set plays. LeBron gets a higher percentage of his assists out of half-court sets than the other two do.
Ingram's at his best against a compromised defense, and all 3 of those guys are gonna compromise the defense in different ways. I'm almost certain that his TS% takes a nice spike and his half court fit is gonna depend on how well he can set and run off of screens. I'd also like to see him get a lot better on the defensive end, but I have no feel for how well he'll be able to do that.
I think we'll see a bigger efficiency spike from him than raw numbers. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | mookielala wrote: | i don't think valuing Rondo's potential contribution means Zo is criminally underrated on this board. there are still a lot of basic half court PG skills that he doesn't seem to have. that's why he didn't have the ball at the end of many games. |
Sure, if the skill he lacked was making FTs. That is why we couldn't have him in at the end of games. |
Rondo is a 54% free throw shooter. |
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24Legend007 Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018 Posts: 1789
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | 24Legend007 wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | 24Legend007 wrote: | Didnt Brandon make most if not all of his threes off catch and shoots last season. Just watched a video of his 100 or so 3's made last season and I can't remember seeing him take dribble? |
He made four 3's off of the dribble last season. |
Hey man. How do you think Brandon is going to be this year? I think you have not been completely sold, understandably so. I think that was more at the beginning of last season though?
I think he has the potential to really take a leap this year. The court and room will look alot bigger this year with James on the court. |
I think Ingram may be a bit of a clunky fit in the half court offense, but I think he's absolutely going to destroy teams in transition and early offense situations. One of the things that I've noticed from doing the research on this LeBron + Rondo + Lonzo piece that I'm working on is that Rondo is similar to Lonzo in that the majority of his assists are outside of set plays. LeBron gets a higher percentage of his assists out of half-court sets than the other two do.
Ingram's at his best against a compromised defense, and all 3 of those guys are gonna compromise the defense in different ways. I'm almost certain that his TS% takes a nice spike and his half court fit is gonna depend on how well he can set and run off of screens. I'd also like to see him get a lot better on the defensive end, but I have no feel for how well he'll be able to do that.
I think we'll see a bigger efficiency spike from him than raw numbers. |
I like the analysis. I agree about the defense as well. Alot of potential there, made some nice defensive plays last year. Hopefully Lebron can get him to buy in and zone in on that side of the court. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's like GT's a better Lakers analyst than all of the schmoes who barely pay attention to the league outside of the Warriors and Lebron. Or something. _________________ Under New Management |
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StillSWOL Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2018 Posts: 181
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Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | mookielala wrote: | i don't think valuing Rondo's potential contribution means Zo is criminally underrated on this board. there are still a lot of basic half court PG skills that he doesn't seem to have. that's why he didn't have the ball at the end of many games. |
Sure, if the skill he lacked was making FTs. That is why we couldn't have him in at the end of games. |
Rondo is a 54% free throw shooter. |
Crunch time PG Brandon Ingram |
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