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StillSWOL
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 181
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trablos
Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Analytics don't have a favorite player, they don't have confirmation bias, they don't have an agenda. They are a neutral party in a discussion where people will argue for "their guy" no matter what. I have a healthy appreciation for what analytics can and can't do, and if there's a person on the planet who doesn't work for the Lakers organization who watches more Lakers footage than I do, I'd love to meet them. My arguments aren't strictly data-driven, I just acknowledge that that anecdotal evidence is colored by my own biases, just like everyone else. So I mainly use stats in a format like this, and ultimately the whole point of the game (the final score) is a pair of numbers that are achieved by the objective events of the ball going through the basket. If this was boxing or ice skating I wouldn't put nearly as much weight into the data.
When all of those numbers point in the same direction, that's a lot more compelling to me than someone advocating for their favorite player through thick and thin.
To answer the question about why I would bring up Ingram having the worst Net Rating differential of anyone in the rotation rather than just advocating for Lonzo to start over Rondo, it's because it's in the Ingram thread. Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. Why?
Oldlakerfan - yes, analytics measure what happened, not what could happen, although young players who end up being good tend to hit certain statistical markers by certain ages. My question is...why is Ingram extended a much more optimistic expectation of his future than any other young Laker? Lonzo Ball is already one of the better passers, rebounders, & defenders in the NBA at his position, while being younger and less experienced than Ingram. What is Ingram one of the best players in the NBA at his position at? What has he done to warrant the lower standard that he's held to relative to his peers? And while Magic & Pelinka are very fond of their young core, I'm not so certain that they'd have them ordered the way that you may think they're in.
It's very possible that Ingram ends up being an outlier and becomes a star despite his first 2 years not mirroring how future stars performed at the same age. And if he does, yes, I'll acknowledge that, because that's what he'll actually be rather than what I want him to be, which seems to be the lens through which he's usually viewed. |
I appreciate following what the numbers are saying, but I'd be more interested in hearing your interpretation of WHY they are that way. For example, you just brought up the teams points per 100 possessions with Lonzo being positive and BI being negative. Since you watch so much film I'm curious as to what you're explanation would be for that, how much BI contributes to that, and if so, what can he do to improve that metric. |
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VicXLakers
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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I like those 'numbers'  |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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@GT
"Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. "
Based on the coaching staff Bron is the only one with a presumptive starting spot.
"It's very possible that Ingram ends up being an outlier and becomes a star despite his first 2 years not mirroring how future stars performed at the same age."
20 Years old Per 36Min
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 11.9 PPG (57.3%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 1.6 APG (6.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 14.6 PPG (55.2%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 2.9 APG (13.1%) 1.0 SPG (1.5%) 1.2 BPG (2.8%)
Marion: N/A
Prince: N/A
Batum: 10.5 PPG (55.5%) 5.4 RPG (9.4%) 1.8 APG (7.8%) 1.2 SPG (1.9%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: N/A
George: 13.5 PPG (54.2%) 6.4 RPG (9.8%) 1.8 APG (8.3%) 1.8 SPG (2.5%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 23.3 PPG (57.7%) 6.0 RPG (9.6%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 0.7 BPG (1.4%)
Ingram: 17.3 PPG (53.6%) 5.7 RPG (8.5%) 4.2 APG (17.7%) 0.8 SPG (1.1%) 0.8 BPG (1.8%)
That looks pretty solid to me, and it clearly shows he's right in line with the other stars. So I believe you're wrong in stating he hasn't mirrored other stars performances at the same age..
I also believe you've got a pretty huge blind spot in regards to Ingram because of how you use analytics. It's not a crystal ball, nor will it ever be. Not too long ago you asked a user here "What is Ingram really good at"?.. I couldn't believe you were still asking this question, which is why some (not I) believe it's personal with you.
Would analytics have suggested KL would be the KL that he is today based on his first two years? No they wouldn't, and there are other examples.
Another issue I have with using analytics as a crystal ball is this falling back on "he's an outlier" when a player has significant growth and the numbers you used to make projections are no longer of any relevance.
They never had any relevance to begin with in terms of projecting. Data provides a snapshot of a particular moment, data can't tell you what's happening tomorrow. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | @GT
"Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. "
Based on the coaching staff Bron is the only one with a presumptive starting spot.
"It's very possible that Ingram ends up being an outlier and becomes a star despite his first 2 years not mirroring how future stars performed at the same age."
20 Years old Per 36Min
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 11.9 PPG (57.3%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 1.6 APG (6.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 14.6 PPG (55.2%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 2.9 APG (13.1%) 1.0 SPG (1.5%) 1.2 BPG (2.8%)
Marion: N/A
Prince: N/A
Batum: 10.5 PPG (55.5%) 5.4 RPG (9.4%) 1.8 APG (7.8%) 1.2 SPG (1.9%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: N/A
George: 13.5 PPG (54.2%) 6.4 RPG (9.8%) 1.8 APG (8.3%) 1.8 SPG (2.5%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 23.3 PPG (57.7%) 6.0 RPG (9.6%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 0.7 BPG (1.4%)
Ingram: 17.3 PPG (53.6%) 5.7 RPG (8.5%) 4.2 APG (17.7%) 0.8 SPG (1.1%) 0.8 BPG (1.8%)
That looks pretty solid to me, and it clearly shows he's right in line with the other stars. So I believe you're wrong in stating he hasn't mirrored other stars performances at the same age..
I also believe you've got a pretty huge blind spot in regards to Ingram because of how you use analytics. It's not a crystal ball, nor will it ever be. Not too long ago you asked a user here "What is Ingram really good at"?.. I couldn't believe you were still asking this question, which is why some (not I) believe it's personal with you.
Would analytics have suggested KL would be the KL that he is today based on his first two years? No they wouldn't, and there are other examples.
Another issue I have with using analytics as a crystal ball is this falling back on "he's an outlier" when a player has significant growth and the numbers you used to make projections are no longer of any relevance.
They never had any relevance to begin with in terms of projecting. Data provides a snapshot of a particular moment, data can't tell you what's happening tomorrow. |
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#all_advanced
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_advanced
Yes they would. Very good player on both sides of the ball according to analytics even in his rookie year. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | @GT
"Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. "
Based on the coaching staff Bron is the only one with a presumptive starting spot.
"It's very possible that Ingram ends up being an outlier and becomes a star despite his first 2 years not mirroring how future stars performed at the same age."
20 Years old Per 36Min
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 11.9 PPG (57.3%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 1.6 APG (6.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 14.6 PPG (55.2%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 2.9 APG (13.1%) 1.0 SPG (1.5%) 1.2 BPG (2.8%)
Marion: N/A
Prince: N/A
Batum: 10.5 PPG (55.5%) 5.4 RPG (9.4%) 1.8 APG (7.8%) 1.2 SPG (1.9%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: N/A
George: 13.5 PPG (54.2%) 6.4 RPG (9.8%) 1.8 APG (8.3%) 1.8 SPG (2.5%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 23.3 PPG (57.7%) 6.0 RPG (9.6%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 0.7 BPG (1.4%)
Ingram: 17.3 PPG (53.6%) 5.7 RPG (8.5%) 4.2 APG (17.7%) 0.8 SPG (1.1%) 0.8 BPG (1.8%)
That looks pretty solid to me, and it clearly shows he's right in line with the other stars. So I believe you're wrong in stating he hasn't mirrored other stars performances at the same age..
I also believe you've got a pretty huge blind spot in regards to Ingram because of how you use analytics. It's not a crystal ball, nor will it ever be. Not too long ago you asked a user here "What is Ingram really good at"?.. I couldn't believe you were still asking this question, which is why some (not I) believe it's personal with you.
Would analytics have suggested KL would be the KL that he is today based on his first two years? No they wouldn't, and there are other examples.
Another issue I have with using analytics as a crystal ball is this falling back on "he's an outlier" when a player has significant growth and the numbers you used to make projections are no longer of any relevance.
They never had any relevance to begin with in terms of projecting. Data provides a snapshot of a particular moment, data can't tell you what's happening tomorrow. |
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#all_advanced
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_advanced
Yes they would. Very good player on both sides of the ball according to analytics even in his rookie year. |
Well of course you of all people would think so lol.. Those numbers don't jump out as future top 3 player in the league. |
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kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29279
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. Why?
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Shooting around Lebron is the priority for many. So I could see Lonzo losing minutes to better shooters on our team. And in the playoffs I can see us relying on Rondo's decision making. Rondo is regarded as one of the most intelligent players in the league by many. Rob alluded to Rondo's playoff experience and success in his presser.
| GoldenThroat wrote: |
What is Ingram one of the best players in the NBA at his position at?
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Getting to the line. His free throw rate is ridiculous for his age. Here is how he compares among all starting forwards. http://bkref.com/tiny/Mn7p7
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | @GT
"Lonzo Ball is younger and more productive than Ingram, yet Ingram's somehow done something to warrant being a presumptive starter whereas Lonzo has not. "
Based on the coaching staff Bron is the only one with a presumptive starting spot.
"It's very possible that Ingram ends up being an outlier and becomes a star despite his first 2 years not mirroring how future stars performed at the same age."
20 Years old Per 36Min
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 11.9 PPG (57.3%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 1.6 APG (6.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 14.6 PPG (55.2%) 7.7 RPG (12.2%) 2.9 APG (13.1%) 1.0 SPG (1.5%) 1.2 BPG (2.8%)
Marion: N/A
Prince: N/A
Batum: 10.5 PPG (55.5%) 5.4 RPG (9.4%) 1.8 APG (7.8%) 1.2 SPG (1.9%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: N/A
George: 13.5 PPG (54.2%) 6.4 RPG (9.8%) 1.8 APG (8.3%) 1.8 SPG (2.5%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 23.3 PPG (57.7%) 6.0 RPG (9.6%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 0.7 BPG (1.4%)
Ingram: 17.3 PPG (53.6%) 5.7 RPG (8.5%) 4.2 APG (17.7%) 0.8 SPG (1.1%) 0.8 BPG (1.8%)
That looks pretty solid to me, and it clearly shows he's right in line with the other stars. So I believe you're wrong in stating he hasn't mirrored other stars performances at the same age..
I also believe you've got a pretty huge blind spot in regards to Ingram because of how you use analytics. It's not a crystal ball, nor will it ever be. Not too long ago you asked a user here "What is Ingram really good at"?.. I couldn't believe you were still asking this question, which is why some (not I) believe it's personal with you.
Would analytics have suggested KL would be the KL that he is today based on his first two years? No they wouldn't, and there are other examples.
Another issue I have with using analytics as a crystal ball is this falling back on "he's an outlier" when a player has significant growth and the numbers you used to make projections are no longer of any relevance.
They never had any relevance to begin with in terms of projecting. Data provides a snapshot of a particular moment, data can't tell you what's happening tomorrow. |
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html#all_advanced
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_advanced
Yes they would. Very good player on both sides of the ball according to analytics even in his rookie year. |
Well of course you of all people would think so lol.. Those numbers don't jump out as future top 3 player in the league. |
I copy and pasted poorly. Look at the advanced analytics part including BPM/Win shares/Vorp. They are incomparable and KL does show superstar numbers. BI does not. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry dude but I can't take you serious.. you're an admitted troll. I shouldn't have even responded to begin with. I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've had in here. Not doing it today, enjoy your Saturday boss. |
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GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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@SocalDevin...
20 Years Old, BPM
Kawhi Leonard................+4.3
Nicolas Batum................+2.5
Kevin Durant..................+1.8
Giannis Antetokuonmpo...+0.5
Paul George......................0.0
Brandon Ingram...............-1.3
20 Years Old, Value Over Replacement Player
Kevin Durant...................+2.8
Kawhi Leonard.................+2.4
Nicolas Batum.................+1.7
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....+1.6
Paul George....................+0.6
Brandon Ingram..............+0.4
20 Years Old, True Shooting %
Kevin Durant..................57.7%
Kawhi Leonard................57.3%
Nicolas Batum.................55.5%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....55.2%
Paul George....................54.2%
Brandon Ingram..............53.6%
20 Years Old, Rebound Rate
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....12.2%
Kawhi Leonard.................12.2%
Paul George......................9.8%
Kevin Durant.....................9.6%
Nicolas Batum...................9.4%
Brandon Ingram................8.5%
20 Years Old, Assist Rate
Brandon Ingram..............17.7%
Kevin Durant...................13.5%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....13.1%
Paul George......................8.3%
Nicolas Batum...................7.8%
Kawhi Leonard...................6.6%
20 Years Old, Stocks (Steal + Block Rate)
Giannis Antetokuonmpo......4.3%
Nicolas Batum....................4.1%
Paul George.......................4.0%
Kawhi Leonard....................4.0%
Kevin Durant......................3.1%
Brandon Ingram.................2.9%
20 Years Old, Turnover Rate
Kawhi Leonard...................9.0%
Nicolas Batum..................11.5%
Kevin Durant....................12.2%
Paul George.....................13.7%
Brandon Ingram...............14.4%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo.....15.6%
Ingram's points & assists per-36 rival or surpass theirs because he had the ball in his hands far more often than those guys did at that age. But both by the one-number indicators and by the specifics, he's well behind the other guys at the same age.
No, analytics are not a crystal ball, but a 20-year old wing in the NBA isn't some unprecedented unicorn either. Could he make a significant leap that puts him on the same track that those guys were on at the age of 21 or 22? Of course? But can't you say that about a lot of young players if you choose to take the most optimistic view of their futures?
Last edited by GoldenThroat on Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry dude but I can't take you serious.. you're an admitted troll. I shouldn't have even responded to begin with. I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've had in here. Not doing it today, enjoy your Saturday boss. |
Sorry I presented facts. I know that’s not how you operate. |
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24Legend007
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018
Posts: 1789
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are we putting KL in the same sentence as BI? That is so not fair to BI. KL has been a top notch defender since the moment he set foot on an NBA court. I love BI, but this is getting delusional. I think it is not likely BI ever become as good KL. I wouldn't ask him too. Not saying BI can't be great, just in his own right. I don't think his ceiling is Leonard though. Not finals MVP, I just can't do it, not as main fiddle. |
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adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I do not frequent the individual players threads often, but do the Ingram apologist live in the Ball thread trying to prove Ingram is superior.....because every time I visit the Ingram thread, it is full of Ball apologist trying to convince everyone Ball is superior.
Why do you care so much that Ingram is considered the top young prospect on the team? I can say without any doubt that most of LG and basketball media consider Ingram the better and more valuable prospect....I can speculate that NBA front offices also feel this way.....and still none of that makes it a fact.....so why is it not good enough to have a minority opinion and respect that the majority does not agree with you? |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry dude but I can't take you serious.. you're an admitted troll. I shouldn't have even responded to begin with. I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've had in here. Not doing it today, enjoy your Saturday boss. |
Sorry I presented facts. I know that’s not how you operate. |
Actually I do, which is why I respect GT's posts.. not yours. I've lost interest in having any exchanges with you for this very reason. Your reputation in here is shot buddy. But I don't want to exchange insults with you, which is why I said enjoy your Saturday. I'm sure you can find someone else to talk to in here. We both know I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've ever had in here lol.. So this nonsense about how I operate is another one of your bogus takes. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | @SocalDevin...
20 Years Old, BPM
Kawhi Leonard................+4.3
Nicolas Batum................+2.5
Kevin Durant..................+1.8
Giannis Antetokuonmpo...+0.5
Paul George......................0.0
Brandon Ingram...............-1.3
20 Years Old, Value Over Replacement Player
Kevin Durant...................+2.8
Kawhi Leonard.................+2.4
Nicolas Batum.................+1.7
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....+1.6
Paul George....................+0.6
Brandon Ingram..............+0.4
20 Years Old, True Shooting %
Kevin Durant..................57.7%
Kawhi Leonard................57.3%
Nicolas Batum.................55.5%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....55.2%
Paul George....................54.2%
Brandon Ingram..............53.6%
20 Years Old, Rebound Rate
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....12.2%
Kawhi Leonard.................12.2%
Paul George......................9.8%
Kevin Durant.....................9.6%
Nicolas Batum...................9.4%
Brandon Ingram................8.5%
20 Years Old, Assist Rate
Brandon Ingram..............17.7%
Kevin Durant...................13.5%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo....13.1%
Paul George......................8.3%
Nicolas Batum...................7.8%
Kawhi Leonard...................6.6%
20 Years Old, Stocks (Steal + Block Rate)
Giannis Antetokuonmpo......4.3%
Nicolas Batum....................4.1%
Paul George.......................4.0%
Kawhi Leonard....................4.0%
Kevin Durant......................3.1%
Brandon Ingram.................2.9%
20 Years Old, Turnover Rate
Kawhi Leonard...................9.0%
Nicolas Batum..................11.5%
Kevin Durant....................12.2%
Paul George.....................13.7%
Brandon Ingram...............14.4%
Giannis Antetokuonmpo.....15.6%
Ingram's points & assists per-36 rival or surpass theirs because he had the ball in his hands far more often than those guys did at that age. But both by the one-number indicators and by the specifics, he's well behind the other guys at the same age.
No, analytics are not a crystal ball, but a 20-year old wing in the NBA isn't some unprecedented unicorn either. Could he make a significant leap that puts him on the same track that those guys were on at the age of 21 or 22? Of course? But can't you say that about a lot of young players if you choose to take the most optimistic view of their futures? |
You can't set there and make the excuse of " Ingram's points and assists per-36 rival or surpass theirs because he had the ball in his hands far more" but then discredit this same fact on the defensive end. He DID have FAR more responsibility than those guys, so couldnt that directly effect his defensive numbers since that at the time was their primary objective? Getting rebounds, steals, blocks? You go using "well this is why his numbers are better" as a reason to hell YOUR argument but then completely discredit the opposite when it helps OUR argument the exact same way.
The facts are, his points and assists numbers per-36 DO rival or suprass those guys. Get over it and admit the facts. You certainly never had a problem giving YOUR boy DLO props based off of Per-36 numbers despite the rest of his analytics being poor and regressing yearly. |
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GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | I do not frequent the individual players threads often, but do the Ingram apologist live in the Ball thread trying to prove Ingram is superior.....because every time I visit the Ingram thread, it is full of Ball apologist trying to convince everyone Ball is superior.
Why do you care so much that Ingram is considered the top young prospect on the team? I can say without any doubt that most of LG and basketball media consider Ingram the better and more valuable prospect....I can speculate that NBA front offices also feel this way.....and still none of that makes it a fact.....so why is it not good enough to have a minority opinion and respect that the majority does not agree with you? |
Did you not spend an entire summer espousing the minority opinion that the Lakers should take Josh Jackson over and over again? Why not accept that different people have different opinions and abolish disagreement on message boards altogether?
And I can speculate that the most important front office in this equation does not feel that way. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry dude but I can't take you serious.. you're an admitted troll. I shouldn't have even responded to begin with. I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've had in here. Not doing it today, enjoy your Saturday boss. |
Sorry I presented facts. I know that’s not how you operate. |
Actually I do, which is why I respect GT's posts.. not yours. I've lost interest in having any exchanges with you for this very reason. Your reputation in here is shot buddy. But I don't want to exchange insults with you, which is why I said enjoy your Saturday. I'm sure you can find someone else to talk to in here. We both know I've proven you wrong in every exchange we've ever had in here lol.. So this nonsense about how I operate is another one of your bogus takes. |
You’re the one throwing insults around. You may care about your reputation around here, I don’t. I’m comfortable in my knowledge of the game. I’m sure you’ve convinced yourself you’ve proven me wrong, you certainly haven’t convinced me. Any reasonable person would look at the advanced stats I showed point towards KL being a superstar and BI not being one. You couldn’t disprove it so you went to insults. Happy Saturday. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 24Legend007 wrote: | | Why are we putting KL in the same sentence as BI? That is so not fair to BI. KL has been a top notch defender since the moment he set foot on an NBA court. I love BI, but this is getting delusional. I think it is not likely BI ever become as good KL. I wouldn't ask him too. Not saying BI can't be great, just in his own right. I don't think his ceiling is Leonard though. Not finals MVP, I just can't do it, not as main fiddle. |
I think you've misunderstood what's being discussed here.
The argument is, would anyone have been able to predict KL would be a top 3 player in this league based on his first 2 years.
I'm saying no.. and in spite of the numbers that are being posted, no one in media was saying he would or could be.
And since it is difficult to predict who will and will not be a superstar or elite (with the exception of those who hit the ground running) it's unfair to harp on Ingram's data for his first two years and build a narrative around what he probably won't ever be. No one knows.. but to constantly sell him short is wack to me. |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| 24Legend007 wrote: | | Why are we putting KL in the same sentence as BI? That is so not fair to BI. KL has been a top notch defender since the moment he set foot on an NBA court. I love BI, but this is getting delusional. I think it is not likely BI ever become as good KL. I wouldn't ask him too. Not saying BI can't be great, just in his own right. I don't think his ceiling is Leonard though. Not finals MVP, I just can't do it, not as main fiddle. |
Let's not under state the importance of having a good team, great coach, and loads of veterans around KL. If KL had gone to a team like Sacramento he would not have had the progression he had nor would his advanced metrics look nearly as good as they do. imo the most comparable guy and sitaution in terms of team role and team talent/coaching to Ingram is Giannis.
I think Ingram is going to eventually hit that next stage once his body fills out (needs to add 15-20 lbs) and when that happens I see him getting to a level of 23/6/5 on 47/38/80 shooting splits. I think he gets to the level of player that Jimmy Butler or Paul George is but not to the KL or Giannis superstar cornerstone threshold. |
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24Legend007
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2018
Posts: 1789
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | 24Legend007 wrote: | | Why are we putting KL in the same sentence as BI? That is so not fair to BI. KL has been a top notch defender since the moment he set foot on an NBA court. I love BI, but this is getting delusional. I think it is not likely BI ever become as good KL. I wouldn't ask him too. Not saying BI can't be great, just in his own right. I don't think his ceiling is Leonard though. Not finals MVP, I just can't do it, not as main fiddle. |
I think you've misunderstood what's being discussed here.
The argument is, would anyone have been able to predict KL would be a top 3 player in this league based on his first 2 years.
I'm saying no.. and in spite of the numbers that are being posted, no one in media was saying he would or could be.
And since it is difficult to predict who will and will not be a superstar or elite (with the exception of those who hit the ground running) it's unfair to harp on Ingram's data for his first two years and build a narrative around what he probably won't ever be. No one knows.. but to constantly sell him short is wack to me. |
I agree, we won't know what BI is truly capable of maybe until the 2019-2020 campaign. Lebron could accelerate his growth? If it happens, it does, I'm just not expecting it. I'm pushing for BI though to prove his naysayers wrong. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | 24Legend007 wrote: | | Why are we putting KL in the same sentence as BI? That is so not fair to BI. KL has been a top notch defender since the moment he set foot on an NBA court. I love BI, but this is getting delusional. I think it is not likely BI ever become as good KL. I wouldn't ask him too. Not saying BI can't be great, just in his own right. I don't think his ceiling is Leonard though. Not finals MVP, I just can't do it, not as main fiddle. |
I think you've misunderstood what's being discussed here.
The argument is, would anyone have been able to predict KL would be a top 3 player in this league based on his first 2 years.
I'm saying no.. and in spite of the numbers that are being posted, no one in media was saying he would or could be.
And since it is difficult to predict who will and will not be a superstar or elite (with the exception of those who hit the ground running) it's unfair to harp on Ingram's data for his first two years and build a narrative around what he probably won't ever be. No one knows.. but to constantly sell him short is wack to me. |
Yes and similar to most cases, the numbers are right and the media is wrong. |
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adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | I do not frequent the individual players threads often, but do the Ingram apologist live in the Ball thread trying to prove Ingram is superior.....because every time I visit the Ingram thread, it is full of Ball apologist trying to convince everyone Ball is superior.
Why do you care so much that Ingram is considered the top young prospect on the team? I can say without any doubt that most of LG and basketball media consider Ingram the better and more valuable prospect....I can speculate that NBA front offices also feel this way.....and still none of that makes it a fact.....so why is it not good enough to have a minority opinion and respect that the majority does not agree with you? |
Did you not spend an entire summer espousing the minority opinion that the Lakers should take Josh Jackson over and over again? Why not accept that different people have different opinions and abolish disagreement on message boards altogether?
And I can speculate that the most important front office in this equation does not feel that way. |
Yes, I did...and I still feel that way....but I am not posting it daily, weekly or even monthly. Not sure if I have even made that claim directly one time since around October. I never cared about having a minority opinion in regards to Jackson, but I did have an issue of the hive trying to attack me over the position simply because I disagreed about a player in which I could provide a lot support that my thinking was more in line with national opinion at the time.
In regards to what the Lakers FO thinks, I would suggest what little bread crumbs that have been dropped, point to Ingram being #1 on their list also....but as I said, that is speculation because I have not spoke to Rob or Magic recently on the issue.
I am not Ball's biggest fan.....and I am lower on him that probably 90% of LG....but I am ok with that. At this point, I likely even have built up some internal bias....which is normal. In contrast, you are extremely bias in regards to most things Ball related, and I even think moderately bias against Ingram....which is fine, but the issue is I get the feeling it irks you that others disagree with you on the two players. |
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GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | You can't set there and make the excuse of " Ingram's points and assists per-36 rival or surpass theirs because he had the ball in his hands far more" but then discredit this same fact on the defensive end. He DID have FAR more responsibility than those guys, so couldnt that directly effect his defensive numbers since that at the time was their primary objective? Getting rebounds, steals, blocks? You go using "well this is why his numbers are better" as a reason to hell YOUR argument but then completely discredit the opposite when it helps OUR argument the exact same way.
The facts are, his points and assists numbers per-36 DO rival or suprass those guys. Get over it and admit the facts. You certainly never had a problem giving YOUR boy DLO props based off of Per-36 numbers despite the rest of his analytics being poor and regressing yearly. |
Ingram wasn't getting stocks as a rookie either relative to his age, when he had almost no offensive responsibility at all. He wasn't at Duke either. Maybe it's because...he's never been particularly disruptive with his length on defense. 
Possessions Used Per-36 Minutes, Age 20
Kevin Durant..................24.4
Brandon Ingram.............18.9
Giannis Antetokuonmpo...15.7
Paul George...................14.5
Kawhi Leonard................11.4
Nicolas Batum..................7.8
Russell was being compared to guys who were using more possessions than he did, not guys who were getting significantly fewer opportunities. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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@GT
"Ingram's points & assists per-36 rival or surpass theirs because he had the ball in his hands far more often than those guys did at that age. "
Essentially opportunity will increase production, no.. Skill is what increases production.
You've expressed an assumption, you can't prove this is true. Would Giannis have the assist numbers Ingram had if given more minutes? Did he or the others have the ability to score more and post more assist totals with more time? There's no way to know right? You can assume they would, but you don't know which is why it's wrong to discount Ingram's 36 Per.
What you aren't factoring into the data is the role these players played with their team, the personnel around them, and the system. All of these things factor into those numbers.
And again when you say things like "what is he actually good at?" it's going to raise eyebrows. |
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GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | Yes, I did...and I still feel that way....but I am not posting it daily, weekly or even monthly. Not sure if I have even made that claim directly one time since around October. I never cared about having a minority opinion in regards to Jackson, but I did have an issue of the hive trying to attack me over the position simply because I disagreed about a player in which I could provide a lot support that my thinking was more in line with national opinion at the time.
In regards to what the Lakers FO thinks, I would suggest what little bread crumbs that have been dropped, point to Ingram being #1 on their list also....but as I said, that is speculation because I have not spoke to Rob or Magic recently on the issue.
I am not Ball's biggest fan.....and I am lower on him that probably 90% of LG....but I am ok with that. At this point, I likely even have built up some internal bias....which is normal. In contrast, you are extremely bias in regards to most things Ball related, and I even think moderately bias against Ingram....which is fine, but the issue is I get the feeling it irks you that others disagree with you on the two players. |
Nor am I in this thread particularly often making my case. And if I was...so what? And fine, I'm extremely biased toward Lonzo, just like those extremely biased analytics seem to be. I'm great with that, along with what I'm aware of in terms of how the Lakers' front office perceives him.
Now, if you don't have anything to add to the topic and just want to give commentary on what people feel like posting about, go away or be sent away. Either participate in the discussion or don't, but your commentary about what other people choose to discuss is no longer welcome. This is way too many times with you and this is your final warning.
Last edited by GoldenThroat on Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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