OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him (and you are speaking for several posters including a few mods...).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject:

Considering Brandon actually reduced his sample size when it comes to 3-point rate, and cut his 3-point rate, nearly in half compared to his rookie year, he has a long way to go as a shooter.

Defenders don't even really respect that shot. They play him for the drive. They know he's a reluctant pull up 3-point shooter, and it's not even a threat on high pick and roll situations.

Want to make it a threat? Add volume, like 7 3-point attempts per game. That gets a defense's attention. But with the increased sample size, I most definitely would expect the percentage to drop to 33% or 35%.

He doesn't shoot 3s off of motion.

He's not high frequency 3-pt shooting off the dribble.

He's only confident as a spot up 3-point shooter, and even then, he has shown moments of hesitation.

39% is just a number, totally deceiving and not all it's cracked up to be.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject:

Numbers are just numbers, until.. those numbers jive with my narrative. I don't have too much of a stomach for debating. I've learned that nothing of value comes of it. People will believe what they believe until it's obvious they shouldn't.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject:

Annihilator wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Clinging to the 39% like it’s a solid argument is crazy - he was a 33% 3pt as of February 6th.. 2 months of raising your % on low attempts doesn’t make you a cemented competent shooter at the moment , and isn’t definitive proof that you will be a good shooter the following year on more attempts

In October, November, December and January, BI made 25 of 74 3-pt attempts (just a hair better than 33.3%); he did this in 46 games. So, he attempted about 1.6 3-pt shots per game.

In February and March, BI made 16 of 31 3-pt attempts (just a little bit better than 50%); he did this in 13 games. He attempted roughly 2.38 3-pt shots per game.

It will be very interesting to see which BI we get this season.


He was a late bloomer at Duke. He's been better in the 2nd half of both his rookie and soph seasons. And he carried that momentum into the next season as well. I think we'll see the Feb/March Ingram this season.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?


I didn't say they said they had no doubts.. I said they communicated that he was a decent shooter. GT and LakerSanity.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?


I didn't say they said they had no doubts.. I said they communicated that he was a decent shooter. GT and LakerSanity.


So you’re fighting your argument . “We should have no doubts he will be a good shooter”
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?


I didn't say they said they had no doubts.. I said they communicated that he was a decent shooter. GT and LakerSanity.


This is the crux of the whole debate. How much doubt. Your position is the argument should be put to bed.

Then you brought in several posters including a few mods, which you have named.

If you think the mods have doubts still, why even bring them in to support your position?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject:

I want you to break that down for me.. how I'm fighting my argument.

I said.. "The new narrative should be whether or not he will be a great or good 3pt shooter. Which I believe is very possible."

Did you really just manufacture a quote from me.. that I didn't say???? This is why I limit my exchanges with you lol..
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject:

BI is getting better and more comfortable w the 3. Hopefully, this continues. Outlook is good considering he shot way above 39% in the last couple months to get to 39%. Also, the looks should be better and more frequent this season. I'm bullish (also a total fan ).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject:

Just for additional proof of Brandon Ingram's shooting:

https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/

12.8% of his total shots are 3-point Catch and shoot ~ 41%

1.4% of his total shots are 3-point pullups ~40%

1 3-point attempt per game has over 6' of distance (or more) from a defender
0.5 3-point attempts are 4'-6' open

The last 0.3 are actually 2'-4' contested.

The good news is, the percentages have little variance. All around 37.5% to 40%.

The bad news is, those 3-point shots have to be OPEN.



So, he takes 3-point shots, when they're good shots, and wide open. He doesn't create his own 3-point shots off the dribble. He rarely takes 3-point shots off of motion. Basically he's sticking to the one dimension of his 3-point shot that makes him most effective/efficient. He has A LOT more development to go to be a consistent/dynamic 3-point shooter, volume, shot location around the arc, pull ups, off motion, against variation of contests.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?


I didn't say they said they had no doubts.. I said they communicated that he was a decent shooter. GT and LakerSanity.


This is the crux of the whole debate. How much doubt. Your position is the argument should be put to bed.

Then you brought in several posters including a few mods, which you have named.

If you think the mods have doubts still, why even bring them in to support your position?


Let's employ common sense guys, and basic reasoning.. If I communicate that someone is a decent shooter.. and someone else say's hey SocalDevin thinks "someone" is a decent shooter does it nullify the take because there are doubts?

And yes when you shoot 39% from three on low volume I believe it's safe to say you are a decent shooter. It's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

With all that being said, you can continue to believe otherwise.. Until it's more apparent for you.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Just for additional proof of Brandon Ingram's shooting:

https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/

12.8% of his total shots are 3-point Catch and shoot ~ 41%

1.4% of his total shots are 3-point pullups ~40%

1 3-point attempt per game has over 6' of distance (or more) from a defender
0.5 3-point attempts are 4'-6' open

The last 0.3 are actually 2'-4' contested.

The good news is, the percentages have little variance. All around 37.5% to 40%.

The bad news is, those 3-point shots have to be OPEN.



So, he takes 3-point shots, when they're good shots, and wide open. He doesn't create his own 3-point shots off the dribble. He rarely takes 3-point shots off of motion. Basically he's sticking to the one dimension of his 3-point shot that makes him most effective/efficient. He has A LOT more development to go to be a consistent/dynamic 3-point shooter, volume, shot location around the arc, pull ups, off motion, against variation of contests.


And guess what?? That would make him a good 3 point shooter.. I didn't communicated he was at present.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Just for additional proof of Brandon Ingram's shooting:

https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/

12.8% of his total shots are 3-point Catch and shoot ~ 41%

1.4% of his total shots are 3-point pullups ~40%

1 3-point attempt per game has over 6' of distance (or more) from a defender
0.5 3-point attempts are 4'-6' open

The last 0.3 are actually 2'-4' contested.

The good news is, the percentages have little variance. All around 37.5% to 40%.

The bad news is, those 3-point shots have to be OPEN.



So, he takes 3-point shots, when they're good shots, and wide open. He doesn't create his own 3-point shots off the dribble. He rarely takes 3-point shots off of motion. Basically he's sticking to the one dimension of his 3-point shot that makes him most effective/efficient. He has A LOT more development to go to be a consistent/dynamic 3-point shooter, volume, shot location around the arc, pull ups, off motion, against variation of contests.


And guess what?? That would make him a good 3 point shooter.. I didn't communicated he was at present.


It would make him a good shooter..


In your opinion.

The fact that defenses play him for the drive than the shot? That he only takes them when he's grade school open?

Nah man, that's not a "good shooter" by me.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject:

The good thing about Brandon is his length and versatility!!

He doesn’t have to be a lethal 3pt shooter just a good respectable 3pt shooter and he will be soon I’m sure of this!!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Just for additional proof of Brandon Ingram's shooting:

https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/

12.8% of his total shots are 3-point Catch and shoot ~ 41%

1.4% of his total shots are 3-point pullups ~40%

1 3-point attempt per game has over 6' of distance (or more) from a defender
0.5 3-point attempts are 4'-6' open

The last 0.3 are actually 2'-4' contested.

The good news is, the percentages have little variance. All around 37.5% to 40%.

The bad news is, those 3-point shots have to be OPEN.



So, he takes 3-point shots, when they're good shots, and wide open. He doesn't create his own 3-point shots off the dribble. He rarely takes 3-point shots off of motion. Basically he's sticking to the one dimension of his 3-point shot that makes him most effective/efficient. He has A LOT more development to go to be a consistent/dynamic 3-point shooter, volume, shot location around the arc, pull ups, off motion, against variation of contests.


And guess what?? That would make him a good 3 point shooter.. I didn't communicated he was at present.


It would make him a good shooter..


In your opinion.

The fact that defenses play him for the drive than the shot? That he only takes them when he's grade school open?

Nah man, that's not a "good shooter" by me.


Let's try again... What you see in bold is what would make him a good shooter.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Yea I'm speaking for others when they said what I said they said.. So yea I'm sure that's something I want to do..

Odd that you would characterize my takes as bold.. maybe we have a different understanding of its meaning. If I had said he would be a great shooter next season or really good next season, that would qualify. But for me to communicate that he would be a competent shooter given the "fact" that he was last season seems like a reasonable and modest take.

No matter how you wanna shake it or break it down.. you can't get around the "fact" that he shot 39% from behind the arc. It's put to bed as far as I'm concerned, you feel free to harbor doubt.


Yup, and it's also a fact as of Feb 6th, he was not a competent shooter, correct? Because he was at 33% at that time (25 of 74 attempts).

So basically, his last 31 three pt attempts of which he made (16 of 31 attempts) has cemented your opinion of him.


What does his stat line say for the season? It say's 39%, you can break it down to push a narrative. But the fact remains, he didn't shoot 33% for the season. He shot 39%. No way around that fact. 39%.. Believe what you want though, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise.


There's a mod right above you that has doubts. Which mods are you referring to by the way?


I didn't say they said they had no doubts.. I said they communicated that he was a decent shooter. GT and LakerSanity.


This is the crux of the whole debate. How much doubt. Your position is the argument should be put to bed.

Then you brought in several posters including a few mods, which you have named.

If you think the mods have doubts still, why even bring them in to support your position?


Let's employ common sense guys, and basic reasoning.. If I communicate that someone is a decent shooter.. and someone else say's hey SocalDevin thinks "someone" is a decent shooter does it nullify the take because there are doubts?

And yes when you shoot 39% from three on low volume I believe it's safe to say you are a decent shooter. It's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

With all that being said, you can continue to believe otherwise.. Until it's more apparent for you.


Well, seems like this is how the debate went:

Question - what kind of shooter will Brandon Ingram be next year?

The Lebrons - still worried

KeepItRealOrElse - up in the air

SocalDevin - no doubts about his jump shot, should be put to bed

KeepItRealOrElse - halfway decent bet to shoot well next year on higher attempts.. (but to say no doubt --> you're tripping)

SocalDevin - If I'm tripping then a lot of other posters are tripping as well, including some of the mods

SocalDevin - I didn't say they said they had no doubts


Yeah, if they still have doubts then they're in the same boat as The Lebrons and KeepItRealOrElse. Seems like you're the only one around here with no doubts.

So, anyone else around here you believe has no doubts besides you?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject:

You're not employing common sense like I asked or basic reasoning.. You're trying to reframe this argument around doubt..

Me and KIROE were having a discussion about whether or not he was a decent shooter. Not good, not great, "decent".. What you're doing is clever but clearly a misrepresentation of what was being discussed.

I feel silly for even having to explain this.. but you can believe that something is what it is while having doubt. Should whatever it is you believe not be expressed because there is some doubt? This entire discussion is silly, let's stay focused.

I think Ingram is clearly a decent shooter, you don't.. Nor will you until it's clear that you should. =)

You also misrepresented KIROE's intent behind the you're tripping comment.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
You're not employing common sense like I asked or basic reasoning.. You're trying to reframe this argument around doubt..

Me and KIROE were having a discussion about whether or not he was a decent shooter. Not good, not great, "decent".. What you're doing is clever but clearly a misrepresentation of what was being discussed.

I feel silly for even having to explain this.. but you can believe that something is what it is while having doubt. Should whatever it is you believe not be expressed because there is some doubt? This entire discussion is silly, let's stay focused.

I think Ingram is clearly a decent shooter, you don't.. Nor will you until it's clear that you should. =)

You also misrepresented KIROE's intent behind the you're tripping comment.


But this whole comment of yours is based on the premise of no doubt:

Quote:
Up in the air for you.. He shot well enough last season to warrant not having any concerns. There is no process to expedite when you've already demonstrated that you're a competent shooter. Also don't agree about him being a "competent shooter in his prime" when he already is.

In regards to your last point I would think we all would have learned by now.. that you don't look at what others did and extract a projection for Ingram, or opinion on what Ingram will do based on it. Many of you have been wrong in doing this, especially in regards to his shooting. I remember you specifically making threads and soliciting feedback on what kind of player Ingram would be should he never get a jump shot. This was done before he started his second season, which I thought was absurd. In hindsight it was. The jury is no longer out in regards to whether or not Ingram will be able to shoot.

Within this forum it was said by many that they'd be happy with him reaching 35%. He's at 39%. On higher volume I think it's safe to say that percentage would dip, I doubt it would fall below 35%, which isn't bad at all.

The can he shoot, or will he shoot well narrative should be put to bed. The new narrative should be whether or not he will be a great or good 3pt shooter. Which I believe is very possible.


As well as this comment:

Quote:
Think we've reached a point where we no longer need to worry about his jump shot. At worst he'll be an average 3pt shooter, based on what he did last season. IMO


So I ask you again, who else shares your views that there's no more worries/ no more concerns?

The same 2 mods you named?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject:

Here's how it started.. maybe this will give you clarity.

SocalDevin wrote:
The Lebrons wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Think we've reached a point where we no longer need to worry about his jump shot. At worst he'll be an average 3pt shooter, based on what he did last season. IMO


I'm still worried because it's too slow, and I think that will keep his volume from being as high as it should be.


It's actually faster based on his workout videos. His volume was low because he was still acclimating to the adjustments they made to his shot. He wasn't going to take 3's unless he had enough time to get it off unrushed. This was discussed with whoever was helping him with his shooting. It was by design.

With more looks being generated for him by Bron, coupled with him being well adjusted to the changes, I see no reason to be concerned about his volume.

Just as I saw no reason to be concerned about him ever becoming a decent shooter. It's still too early to have concerns about anything in regards to our young guys.

Not concerned or worried about Ball's shooting, or Kuz's Defense.. They'll figure it out.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

This is one of those exchanges that are pointless.. these are the kind I try to avoid. Ask yourself what we're talking about. Think about what we're talking about at present.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Don't play dumb.. we both know I never communicated that any mods had no concerns. I said they thought he was a decent shooter, nothing more.
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JJin77
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Think we've reached a point where we no longer need to worry about his jump shot. At worst he'll be an average 3pt shooter, based on what he did last season. IMO


His catch & shoot 3's, I have very little worries, except the volume he takes.
but pull up jumper, off the dribble 3's are specific shooting skills that he must
learn in order to become efficient-high volume scorer many laker fans envision.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Don't play dumb.. we both know I never communicated that any mods had no concerns. I said they thought he was a decent shooter, nothing more.


So does anyone else around here share your no concerns/no worries views besides yourself Devin?
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